Quick argument against Biblical corporal punishment

[Koala]

You can call it hitting, spanking, whatever you want. But if you don't realize there is a difference between an open hand on a child's rear end and a punch in the face with a closed fist, then no amount of explanation will help.

Who here has compared the two? We are simply calling hitting what it is: hitting.

I actually spent a lot of time deciding how I was going to parent, read a lot of books, sat under some great teaching and then came to the conclusion that I would spank, but only for certain circumstances and that I would use other methods in addition to spanking.

Can you show us some peer reviewed studies that show benefits of adults hitting their children?

Are you aware that it has been linked to aggression? Are you aware that the American Academy of Pediatrics advises against it?

[tinuviel]

Third, yeah that what I thought. You know "your rod and your staff, they comfort me" and all that.

2xxxy, awesome post! Thanks! As you see, she who laughs, most non-spanking parents here are not advocating letting kids run wild or locking kids in the basement.

[Koala]

With a chair they were able to get high enough to unlock the dead bolt.

Where were you while all of this was going on? You have a child young enough to run into traffic, and you give them time to get a chair, unlock the deadbolt, and make for the street?

[formergothardite]

She Who Laughs, I never said there was no difference between a punch in the face and an open hand swat on the rear, I just said that spanking is hitting and since you seemed to act like it wasn't I asked you to explain how you could spank without hitting.

So again, how can you spank without hitting? I've never gotten a spanker to answer this even though none of them want to call it hitting. If it isn't hitting, then how do you spank?

[2xx1xy1JD]

Wasn't attempting to change the subject at all. I have just noticed that on many, many different topics I find myself thinking that I have never met anyone in real life with such extreme views as those here on FJ. I just find it interesting and wonder where these extremists are hiding. Certainly there must be some in my community, I just wonder where they are. I get out plenty, have traveled to more than half of the states in the US, have lived in several states and in Canada for a while and have traveled in Europe pretty extensively and I don't care what the topic is, whether it is child rearing, women's rights, birth control, dating, religion, etc. I've just never come across people with such far, far, far left leanings. Most of the people I have conversed with seem to fall into the slightly left, moderate, conservative, or slight conservative viewpoint. I haven't come across any far, far, right leaning people in real life either.

LOL at the "far, far left" description.

Part of the reason that I bother to have these conversations is that I know the stereotype of a non-spanker or someone into positive parenting is this extreme hippie with out-of-control kids. The fact is, though, that I learned much of this stuff from a religious mom of 12, who was pregnant with #13. She wasn't remotely "left-wing" - the kids, as ultra-Orthodox Jews, followed tons of rules about eating, how they dressed, avoiding certain activities on Saturdays, not having TV or movies or unfiltered internet, etc.

[She Who Laughs]

Yes, I'm very extreme when it comes to people promoting violence against children and making it seem harmless. If someone feels it is best to hit their children as a form of discipline then I am going to speak up.

Last week I took my kids to the zoo. We were about to round the corner to go into the primate building and we saw a woman hit her child (she was probably 15-18 months). Unfortunately there is not law against it here, but I did say something. My children were upset and they gasped when they saw it, so as we passed her I look her straight in the eye and said, "It's a shame for anyone to hit a baby." She just stared at me...I doubt it had ever happened to her before, but I felt like I had to speak up.

Great, that was your right to say something just as it is her right to raise her child the way she sees fit, unless she is breaking a law. If I had lived in an area where there was a law against spanking, then I wouldn't have broken the law, I would have been forced to either comply with the law and find other ways to discipline or move somewhere where it wasn't against the law.

I don't think a child that young should be spanked as they are not old enough to completely understand and were probably just over tired, over stimulated, hungry, wet, etc. In that instance I might have said something also as I wouldn't have felt spanking was appropriate in that same situation you described. But, I would also understand that if the law wasn't against it, it was ultimately her decision to do what she felt was best.

[formergothardite]

Where were you while all of this was going on? You have a child young enough to run into traffic, and you give them time to get a chair, unlock the deadbolt, and make for the street?

I understand that things can happen quickly with children, but I would recommend changing the type of lock to one with a key and then put the key up high. I had a friend who spanks and her daughter did that exact same thing with getting a chair and unlocking the dead bolt, spanking her didn't do one thing. Changing the lock put a stop to it.

And again, you don't have to hit your childre to teach them to stop when you say stop. It isn't hit your child or let them get run over in the street.

[She Who Laughs]

She Who Laughs, I never said there was no difference between a punch in the face and an open hand swat on the rear, I just said that spanking is hitting and since you seemed to act like it wasn't I asked you to explain how you could spank without hitting.

So again, how can you spank without hitting? I've never gotten a spanker to answer this even though none of them want to call it hitting. If it isn't hitting, then how do you spank?

Like I said, you can call it what you want. If you want to call it hitting, then so be it. I hit my children with my open hand on their buttocks. It was done just hard enough to sting and cause discomfort but not to the point of being painful for the rest of the day or so they couldn't sit down. If anything, it was painful for the moment and then 5 minutes later (or less) the pain would be gone.

[formergothardite]

Like I said, you can call it what you want. If you want to call it hitting, then so be it. I hit my children with my open hand on their buttocks. It was done just hard enough to sting and cause discomfort but not to the point of being painful for the rest of the day or so they couldn't sit down. If anything, it was painful for the moment and then 5 minutes later (or less) the pain would be gone.

So why get upset when people call it hitting since that is what you are doing? You, an adult, are hitting a small child. You could teach your children in other ways, but you would rather hit them. Why not just own up to that? Drop the whole spanking word and call it what it is, adults hitting children?

[She Who Laughs]

Who here has compared the two? We are simply calling hitting what it is: hitting.

Can you show us some peer reviewed studies that show benefits of adults hitting their children?

Are you aware that it has been linked to aggression? Are you aware that the American Academy of Pediatrics advises against it?

No I can't show you peer reviewed studies and I don't automatically agree with society or with everything the American Academy of Pediatrics advises. Nobody I know who was spanked as a child has any problems with aggression and I expect that in those instances where it was linked with aggression there were also different circumstances and other things going on in the home to cause the aggression. I would guess that the other things going on in the home were conveniently not linked to the study.

[thetabmeister]

So why get upset when people call it hitting since that is what you are doing? You, an adult, are hitting a small child. You could teach your children in other ways, but you would rather hit them. Why not just own up to that? Drop the whole spanking word and call it what it is, adults hitting children?

She Who Laughs: "I hit my children."

Do you hit your dog? Your husband? Your neighbor? The person writing a check in front of you at the grocery store? Some random stranger who gives you attitude?

Oh of course you don't, sweetie, only your tiny, defenseless, impressionable CHILDREN that were given to you to protect and who aren't mature enough to know their rights or protect/manage themselves.

Thaaaaaaaaat makes a lot of sense.

[thetabmeister]

No I can't show you peer reviewed studies and I don't automatically agree with society or with everything the American Academy of Pediatrics advises. Nobody I know who was spanked as a child has any problems with aggression and I expect that in those instances where it was linked with aggression there were also different circumstances and other things going on in the home to cause the aggression. I would guess that the other things going on in the home were conveniently not linked to the study.

So apparently SWL doesn't equate "passive aggressiveness" with "aggression." Your posting style reeks of ugliness and I can't imagine that you've never been angry or aggressive!

[Clementine]

It's so weird that the pro-spankers here on FJ always say: "but I only spank a little" as if that's a good thing.

To me it sounds just as positive as "oh, but I only raped my wife _a little_".

[formergothardite]

Some kids in my daughter class at school were talking about their parents spanking them a couple of months ago and she asked me what spanking was and when I told her she was horrified. She was like "Why would Mommies and Daddies hit their kids? Hitting is bad. You get moved to red(school behaviour chart) for that and you have to go talk to the principal. "

[Koala]

No I can't show you peer reviewed studies and I don't automatically agree with society or with everything the American Academy of Pediatrics advises. Nobody I know who was spanked as a child has any problems with aggression and I expect that in those instances where it was linked with aggression there were also different circumstances and other things going on in the home to cause the aggression. I would guess that the other things going on in the home were conveniently not linked to the study.

Then what is this great teaching you sat under? What were the books you read based on?

You say you suspect the aggression was because of other circumstances. What is your basis for this?

[She Who Laughs]

So why get upset when people call it hitting since that is what you are doing? You, an adult, are hitting a small child. You could teach your children in other ways, but you would rather hit them. Why not just own up to that? Drop the whole spanking word and call it what it is, adults hitting children?

So there are only specific words that can be used to describe something? Is there a list of acceptable words I am somehow missing? I use the word spanking because I can tell someone I had to spank my child last night they will totally understand immediately what I did and if they know our family well enough they would even be able to guess why I had to spank. But if I told someone I hit my child last night, they wouldn't have a clue what actually happened, why it happened, where I hit my child, or what I hit my child with (the car)? The same goes for someone talking to me. If my son told me "last night I had to spank Emma" I might ask why but I would immediately know that he had to discipline her, that he swatted her on the bottom with an open hand and that she was fine. If he told me "last night I hit Emma" there would be a whole flood of questions I would to ask. So why not just use the word that describes it most clearly and doesn't leave the listener with a ton of unanswered questions?

[bananacat]

If you can't manage to successfully discipline your children without hitting them, then there is something wrong with you. Sure, it takes effort to discipline kids correctly, but that's what it means to be a parent. You do the work of disciplining your children without resorting the easy way of venting your frustration physically.

The simple truth is that spanking makes kids behave worse. Every study done has consistently shown that kids who get spanked are worse behaved than kids who don't get spanked. Plenty of spanked kids turn out fine, but they do so in spite of the spanking and not because of it.

My mom spanked me. I won't spank my kids. Someone has to break the cycle and decide to end it. If my mom went back and did it all over again, she wouldn't spank. It doesn't mean she was some horrible monster for spanking us, only that she is not perfect just like everyone else and did something wrong. And she's secure enough to admit that one aspect of her parenting was wrong without feeling like a complete failure.

But people who have spanked and refuse to evaluate their own actions are bad parents. Yes, I'm a bitch for calling someone a bad parent. But you know what? At least I've never hit a child.

[acheronbeach]

But she & BIL found out that he got a paddling for acting out, after they signed a form requesting no physical punishment for their kids. That teacher has since been fired.

WTF??? A teacher unilaterally decided to hit your sister's kid?

[formergothardite]

So there are only specific words that can be used to describe something? Is there a list of acceptable words I am somehow missing? I use the word spanking because I can tell someone I had to spank my child last night they will totally understand immediately what I did and if they know our family well enough they would even be able to guess why I had to spank. But if I told someone I hit my child last night, they wouldn't have a clue what actually happened, why it happened, where I hit my child, or what I hit my child with (the car)? The same goes for someone talking to me. If my son told me "last night I had to spank Emma" I might ask why but I would immediately know that he had to discipline her, that he swatted her on the bottom with an open hand and that she was fine. If he told me "last night I hit Emma" there would be a whole flood of questions I would to ask. So why not just use the word that describes it most clearly and doesn't leave the listener with a ton of unanswered questions?

Spanking means all sorts of things from hitting with belts on the legs to a light hit on the hand. So if someone told me they spanked their child last night I still have a ton of unanswered questions.

[bananacat]

Oh, and the "running into the street" argument is one of stupidest in existence. I wish people would stop using such a ridiculous excuse. If your kid can understand "don't do that or mommy will hit me", then they can understand "don't do that or a car will hit me". If they can't understand that yet, then you need to do your damn job and supervise the kid. Every single day, millions and millions of parents and other caregivers manage to prevent their kids from wandering into the street without resorting to hit them. If you have to hit your kid to keep them out of the street, then there is either something really wrong with your parenting, or you are lying to yourself because you want an excuse to hit a kid.

[thetabmeister]

Spanking means all sorts of things from hitting with belts on the legs to a light hit on the hand. So if someone told me they spanked their child last night I still have a ton of unanswered questions.

Not to mention spanking is still hitting, so if hitting is wrong, then spanking is wrong.

[nolongerIFBx]

I've seen kids who ignore their parents up to the moment that they are about to receive a spanking.

One key to being a good parent is to be consistent.

Imagine two sets of parents dealing with a child jumping on the furniture. The first mom tells her son to stop jumping on the furniture, when he doesn't, she gets off her butt and takes her son off the couch. Even if it means holding him on her lap, she doesn't allow him to get back on that couch.

The second mom tells her child over and over to get off the couch. When she finally becomes enraged, she gets up and pops the child a few times. I've seen this happen often so it isn't far fetched.

So which child will stop when their mom yells at them? The first child has a mom that always gets off her ass to parent him. The second child doesn't. Which child do you really believe will run into the road despite being told to stop?

If you build up a relationship with your child in which they know that your noes always mean no, they are more likely to obey you during an emergency.

In the second scenario, the timing of the response made it wrong. Whether after repeated warnings they were spanked or were forced to be held on her lap, the child only learned how short their parent's fuse was not that they need to behave. The first parent responded as soon as the child misbehaved. that was the correct response. Whether you spank or use some other method of discipline you need to be consistant and respond immediately not in anger when you can't stand their misbehavior any longer.

[Third]

I have had someone suggest I spank\beat sense into my special needs child. :(

I have heard in some states it's legal for schools to paddle kids there was a reality show about it on TV.

[She Who Laughs]

Then what is this great teaching you sat under? What were the books you read based on?

You say you suspect the aggression was because of other circumstances. What is your basis for this?

I haven't read the study you referred to that shows a link to aggression, perhaps since you brought the study up you need to direct me to it and the proof that there wasn't anything else going on in the homes.

I made my decision to spank more than 30 years ago. I no longer have the books or even remember their specific titles. At the time I gleaned information from some Pastors, some speakers with child development backgrounds, our family doctor, some friends I respected, some older and wiser type people in our church who had successfully raised their families. Not all information has to come from peer reviewed studies to be worthwhile.

[formergothardite]

For spankers, do you think people would react the same way if you decided to say "I hit my child three times on the bottom last night because I prefer hitting my child to other means of discipline."

I think they would because they would be confronted with what actually is going on as opposed to saying "I spanked my child last night because I prefer spanking to other means of discipline." I think using the word spanking instead of hitting makes it seem less violent and that is why spankers get upset at having it called hitting.

And do you teach your children hitting is wrong? If so how do you explain that you can hit them? Hitting is wrong unless a parent hits a child?