Take that Divorce! Or, my kids better not EVER divorce!

[fluttershies]

Well why should I not want a neat explanation? No really. Should I not be able to demand that? After all, I constantly see politicians on the TV blabbering on about how they are Christian and would make Christian-based laws. Well, shit, if that is the case, then I better damn-well have a "neat" explanation. If there is no explanation, and if there is no way to explain the tenants of Christianity, then I do not see how anyone could even claim to be a "Christian." It would be the same thing as claiming to be absolutely nothing at all - totally fine by me, but then why even have the pretense of saying otherwise?

Why does it upset so many of you that I ask these questions? Many of you act as though the answers are already a "given" and that I am just a troll, but to me they are not a given. They are real questions that deserve real answers.

If every "Christian" out there was just living their own life and doing their own thing, then I would certainly agree that I should just mind my own business. But, if those people are going to use their "beliefs" as a way to deny basic rights to others, then I absolutely demand to know and understand what those beliefs are. Some here have self-identified as being Christian. I (naively) assumed that anyone who claimed to be Christian could explain all this with ease, but that was not the case at all. That is when I seriously started asking some questions. One argument against gay marriage is that is destroys the "sanctity" of heterosexual, Christian marriage. Well call me crazy but I always assumed the "sanctity" of that union stemmed from the vows. Well now I hear that the vows are actually meaningless. That was very surprising to me is all. It lead to a lot more questions.

Because *such* a neat explanation would be utterly illogical. Like meda said, a 2000+ year old faith with numerous translations of the Bible, many different denominations and millions of members does not lend itself to neat explanations.

Also, yeah, I did say that marriage vows are like a contract - but I don't see how that makes it meaningless. People don't make them WANTING to eventually divorce. The vast, vast majority of couples take their vows extremely seriously and work at their marriage. The fact that if things break down, to an extent that they can't be repaired, there is a way out does not render their vows meaningless. Do you really think that divorced couples thought their vows were meaningless when they made them?

Christians make wedding vows for the same reasons non-Christians do - to get married. Incidentally, not all Christians DO make wedding vows, just like not all Christians wear wedding rings or abstain from sex before marriage.

[Boogalou]

Currwurst, I am curious as to how long you have been around FJ before joining. It seems you are asking a lot of questions that would be answered if you had spent a little time around the site before posting and jumping in with two feet.

[currywurst]

currywurst wrote:

Well why should I not want a neat explanation? No really. Should I not be able to demand that? After all, I constantly see politicians on the TV blabbering on about how they are Christian and would make Christian-based laws. Well, shit, if that is the case, then I better damn-well have a "neat" explanation.

Okay, but go demand that shit from the people who are doing it. Who are not the people on this forum. You can demand all you want here but none of us owe you a damn thing.

currywurst wrote:

Why does it upset so many of you that I ask these questions? Many of you act as though the answers are already a "given" and that I am just a troll, but to me they are not a given. They are real questions that deserve real answers.

Because you've been answered and you just keep nattering on about it. Because if you really wanted to know you would do a little research yourself and not come over here looking to be spoonfed. Why should people here do the work for you? Google. It's free.

**ETA: Plus there is still no consensus so you are asking for something that does not exist.

Of course not. I do not think any of you do. You may leave this discussion whenever you want and I assure I will not be demanding any answers from you. I only ask these questions because so many people were SHOCKED when I made the comment that the rules of taking Christian wedding vows would imply that the fundie was actually correct. I was totally blasted for this, thus I asked a lot of questions. I thought my questions were totally reasonable. Any person answering them could have told me that they simply did not know the answer because they did not subscribe to the Christian faith. Cool. That seems reasonable. What made me continue to ask questions was that I got a lot of elusive half answers from people who claimed to be Christian. I thought that was weird. I admit now that I was wrong, but before I started posting in this thread I always assumed that anyone who professed to be a certain religion would be able to explain a basic tenet of that religion without hesitation. That is what totally threw me, and is why I continued to ask questions.

[currywurst]

Yes, I wish someone would start a forum, or something, calling these people out on their hypocrisy.

Um, hello, that is what I was doing with my original post, and yet lots of people jumped on me! I was surprised, since I thought I was posting on a fundie snark forum. Thus, I began to ask some questions. I honestly thought there must be lots of Christians here who did not "get" it.

[Guest Anonymous]

Edited to note that Lissar said it better, probably because she believes in true biblical pet modesty.

I have to accept that this was a masterful troll job, in that when I read that comment (complete with sad smiley face) I actually boggled. My mouth dropped open and I physically recoiled from my monitor - as if the stupid could emerge into my office like an alien popping out of some B movie extra's chest.

[currywurst]

Christians make wedding vows for the same reasons non-Christians do - to get married. Incidentally, not all Christians DO make wedding vows, just like not all Christians wear wedding rings or abstain from sex before marriage.

So having sex before marriage falls within the tenets of Christianity?

[meda]

Um, hello, that is what I was doing with my original post, and yet lots of people jumped on me! I was surprised, since I thought I was posting on a fundie snark forum. Thus, I began to ask some questions. I honestly thought there must be lots of Christians here who did not "get" it.

[fluttershies]

So having sex before marriage falls within the tenets of Christianity?

For some people, sure. As has been repeatedly said in this thread, there are many different Christian denominations who vary as to how rigidly/literally they interpret the Bible.

[fluttershies]

Um, hello, that is what I was doing with my original post, and yet lots of people jumped on me! I was surprised, since I thought I was posting on a fundie snark forum. Thus, I began to ask some questions. I honestly thought there must be lots of Christians here who did not "get" it.

Self awareness is your friend. Also, why do you assume that vow taking is a central tenet of Christianity?

[meda]

I have to accept that this was a masterful troll job, in that when I read that comment (complete with sad smiley face) I actually boggled. My mouth dropped open and I physically recoiled from my monitor - as if the stupid could emerge into my office like an alien popping out of some B movie extra's chest.

The smiley face was welldone, but I am still undecided...there are shades of our Aspie friend finleeport that I just can't get past.

[currywurst]

I'm confused by that too. Quakers are almost always Christian but never take vows, to the extent of not swearing oaths in court.

No shit, I am confused too. It expressly says in the New Testament not to take oaths, thus I do not understand how any Christian could.

[fluttershies]

No shit, I am confused too. It expressly says in the New Testament not to take oaths, thus I do not understand how any Christian could.

Because depending on where you live, you have to make vows to legally get married? In the UK and in most Western countries/US states, it is a legal requirement.

[meda]

Because depending on where you live, you have to make vows to legally get married? In the UK and in most Western countries/US states, it is a legal requirement.

Careful, that sounds like a render unto Caesar what is Caesar's argument, which involves that dreaded nuanced thinking...

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm confused by that too. Quakers are almost always Christian but never take vows, to the extent of not swearing oaths in court.

No no no. You have it all wrong. There is One True Christian Way that we are all refusing to share with currywurst. Remember that time that God showed up and was all "Do it just like this." and everyone was all "Okay! You got it!" and then everyone did it just like that? And some of us took notes and made a little pamphlet? But currywurst was in the bathroom and we all laughed because we knew that God would never come back and we were supposed to explain All The Things to her but we won't because we're mean.

No shit, I am confused too. It expressly says in the New Testament not to take oaths, thus I do not understand how any Christian could.

Because there is no consensus. Because like fluttershies says, in some countries you have to take an oath/make a vow to get married, and the Bible also says to follow the laws of the land that you live in. Fucking nuance, how does it work?

Also because there is no consensus.

**ETA: Was crossposting with meda.

[currywurst]

Because depending on where you live, you have to make vows to legally get married? In the UK and in most Western countries/US states, it is a legal requirement.

Really? Does it have to be a Christian vow, or can it be any vow? Could you, in theory write your own vow, one which you might actually keep? Can it be a Muslim or a Hindu vow?

[Guest Anonymous]

Really? Does it have to be a Christian vow, or can it be any vow? Could you, in theory write your own vow, one which you might actually keep? Can it be a Muslim or a Hindu vow?

OMG. If only there were something that would search the internet (a series of tubes) and deliver information on any subject that one might have a question about. That would be so cool.

[RR88]

I wish more people would call them out on it...sadly I appear to be in the minority :(

Back under your bridge, please.

[RR88]

Um, hello, that is what I was doing with my original post, and yet lots of people jumped on me! I was surprised, since I thought I was posting on a fundie snark forum. Thus, I began to ask some questions. I honestly thought there must be lots of Christians here who did not "get" it.

Clueless troll is clueless.

[currywurst]

Because there is no consensus. Because like fluttershies says, in some countries you have to take an oath/make a vow to get married, and the Bible also says to follow the laws of the land that you live in. Fucking nuance, how does it work?

Also because there is no consensus.

Well how can there be no consensus about something which is expressly stated in the New Testament? How can that be? I mean there are loads of people out there who say our nations laws should be based on the Bible. Those people must have consensus on this by now, right? Shit, they get tons of votes, so there must be some consensus somewhere.

[currywurst]

OMG. If only there were something that would search the internet (a series of tubes) and deliver information on any subject that one might have a question about. That would be so cool.

Yeah, that is why everything I read about those laws lead me to believe there was nothing particularly religious about the vow. You just had to say that you freely took that person to be your spouse in front of witnesses.

There is no such thing as a legal requirement to make a Christian vow. It is voluntary. You do not have to make it. It all goes back to my original problem: clearly there is no "meat" behind a Christian marriage vow. Thus I must ask the purpose of making it at all.

[fluttershies]

OMG. If only there were something that would search the internet (a series of tubes) and deliver information on any subject that one might have a question about. That would be so cool.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Seriously, I get not understanding a faith you weren't brought up in, but not knowing that in most places you have to make vows to get married? Really?? And currywurst is criticising teen mothers for being clueless...?

[meda]

Well how can there be no consensus about something which is expressly stated in the New Testament? How can that be? I mean there are loads of people out there who say our nations laws should be based on the Bible. Those people must have consensus on this by now, right? Shit, they get tons of votes, so there must be some consensus somewhere.

For the love of cake, stop. Stop trying to convince people that already agree with you about the dangers of fundamentalist religion and go educate yourself.

Try this: http://www.amazon.com/Family-Secret-Fun ... 0060559799

[currywurst]

Lissar wrote:

currywurst wrote:

Quote:

Because depending on where you live, you have to make vows to legally get married? In the UK and in most Western countries/US states, it is a legal requirement.

Really? Does it have to be a Christian vow, or can it be any vow? Could you, in theory write your own vow, one which you might actually keep? Can it be a Muslim or a Hindu vow?

OMG. If only there were something that would search the internet (a series of tubes) and deliver information on any subject that one might have a question about. That would be so cool.

Seriously, I get not understanding a faith you weren't brought up in, but not knowing that in most places you have to make vows to get married? Really?? And currywurst is criticising teen mothers for being clueless...?

You call me clueless, yet you did not answer my question. Why not? I mean, you laugh at me because you think the answer is self-evident and easy. So why not just answer me if it is so obvious?

[luckylibrarian]

Why does currywurst start a fight in every thread she posts in?

[formergothardite]

Just accept that there are no neat answers, there is no real logical sense and if you want to find out someones personal feelings on religion ask them. But there is no blanket "Christians believe this___________." answer that people can give you except for maybe almost all Christians believe Jesus was God.