Take that Divorce! Or, my kids better not EVER divorce!

[valsa]

Is it really too much for me to ask for an explanation as to what this actually means?

As one atheist to another- Christianity is a broken mess of vagueness and contradictions. No one is ever going to be able to explain it to you because one person will say it's one thing and another person will say it's another thing- and both of them will have perfectly valid evidence to back up their claims, even if those claims contradict each other.

Christianity is whatever someone wants it to be and can be used to justify or excuse anything they want it to. It's a perfect "write your own ending" religion and that's probably why it's so popular.

[currywurst]

Yes. Because it means something different to every person that you ask. FFS, there is no consensus. There is no consensus!

If you want to know what religion and Christianity mean to a particular person you can ask them. If you want to know how different fundies interpret Christianity there are a slew of blogs listed in the sticky post at the top of the forum. Get to reading. But even within fundiedom - there is still no consensus.

Okay. That's cool. I guess my question is how these people can then form any sort of political unity and wish to make laws based upon "Christianity." If it means something different to every person, then surely that would be totally impossible, right?

[meda]

It concerns me enough that I would like to understand the belief system. I know a lot people here are rolling their eyes at me right now, but I think I am asking perfectly legitimate questions. I really want to understand what exactly this "religion" is (in quotes because someone just wrote it is not a religion, but a "faith") and what its tenants are. I constantly see politicians talking about God and Christianity and whatnot. Is it really too much to ask that this be explained to us?

Someone brought up Newt Gingrich, and I think that person made an excellent point. Apparently lots of Christians take this guy on face value as a real Christian. Okay...fine. From a bald reading of the Bible, I cannot fathom how anyone could. He strikes me as a consummate "unbeliever." This is where I have a lot of sincere questions about Christianity. I thought I understood it, but apparently I don't. I learned from this board that being a good Christian has nothing to do with following the rules of the Bible or breaking vows, or anything like that (I always thought it did). You only have to believe Jesus is your savior and that is that. Then I learned that Christianity is not even a religion at all, but merely a faith. Now I still am not 100% sure what any of this actually means. You can all call me a troll all you want, but I really want answers to my questions. We have millions of people who want to run our country and rule our lives based upon the tenants of Christianity.

Is it really too much for me to ask for an explanation as to what this actually means?

This really does scream troll to me, or at least screams "person with little capacity for nuance." Why are you here demanding a nice, neat, meta explanation of Christianity? Why do you assume that such an explanation exists? Individual posters have given you explanations of their faith as they understand it, yet you demand more. Repeatedly saying "I don't understand these inconsistencies....EXPLAIN THEM !!!!!!" page after page in a thread is a debating tactic, not a request for information. If you really care, there is a whole wide world of Christion theology and apologetics out there for you to explore. Why don't you do that rather than giving us a bad PZ Mayers impersonation.

[kpmom]

Okay. That's cool. I guess my question is how these people can then form any sort of political unity and wish to make laws based upon "Christianity." If it means something different to every person, then surely that would be totally impossible, right?

One can only hope.

[currywurst]

As one atheist to another- Christianity is a broken mess of vagueness and contradictions. No one is ever going to be able to explain it to you because one person will say it's one thing and another person will say it's another thing- and both of them will have perfectly valid evidence to back up their claims, even if those claims contradict each other.

Christianity is whatever someone wants it to be and can be used to justify or excuse anything they want it to. It's a perfect "write your own ending" religion and that's probably why it's so popular.

Yeah, sure, that's totally cool. I am merely asking then how anyone could ask me to convert to Christianity when it clearly is something completely meaningless? What am I converting to then, exactly? And when politicians use Christianity as the basis for their entire political outlook, well then what does that mean, exactly?*

* disclaimer. I do not personally believe that most politicians who claim to be Christian are actually Christian. I think it is usually a cynical ploy on the part of the politician to get that voting block.

[meda]

Why not ask the person trying to convert you?

[Guest Anonymous]

Okay. That's cool. I guess my question is how these people can then form any sort of political unity and wish to make laws based upon "Christianity." If it means something different to every person, then surely that would be totally impossible, right?

OMFG, you have to be trolling.

Because politically, fundamentalist Christianity is a great big dogwhistle. It's code for the woman hating, slut shaming, big business pandering, capitalism fetishizing, racist, homophobic, let them eat bootstraps, good old boys club. Seriously. What rock do you live under? Politicians aren't going to come out and say that stuff, so they have to call it something else. Major bonus points if they can sound wholesome and scoop up the *actual* fundie religious vote while they're at it. For someone who seems to have a high opinon of their own intellectualism, you are coming off as remarkably dim.

**Edited to correct a riffle.

**ETA: I quoted and wrote my response to currywurst's post prior to the tacking on of the disclaimer.

[RR88]

tenants of Christianity.

Grammar Nazi time: It's "tenets", not "tenants". Sorry, but that really grinds my gears. :twisted:

[fluttershies]

This really does scream troll to me, or at least screams "person with little capacity for nuance." Why are you here demanding a nice, neat, meta explanation of Christianity? Why do you assume that such an explanation exists? Individual posters have given you explanations of their faith as they understand it, yet you demand more. Repeatedly saying "I don't understand these inconsistencies....EXPLAIN THEM !!!!!!" page after page in a thread is a debating tactic, not a request for information. If you really care, there is a whole wide world of Christion theology and apologetics out there for you to explore. Why don't you do that rather than giving us a bad PZ Mayers impersonation.

I'm picking up a lot of Aspergic traits. Currywurst, do you have Asperger's/are somewhere on the autistic spectrum? Your need for a neat explaination without any room for different interpretations seems like something a high-functioning autistic person would want. Your thoughts about teenage mothers giving up their children are very similar to those of people with Asperger's that I know - what's 'right' is important, and not feelings because feelings just don't register.

The explaination that Christianity is the umbrella faith and religions are the individual denominations is a good one, I think. I am an Anglican/Episcopalian, and while me and say, a Pentecostal might both be Christians, the way we express our faith is very different. Our churches look different, the music and liturgy used are different, even our holidays are different (a Pentecostal would not celebrate Candlemas!). Our religious routines are very different but we both share the same faith, and therefore the same Saviour.

[currywurst]

This really does scream troll to me, or at least screams "person with little capacity for nuance." Why are you here demanding a nice, neat, meta explanation of Christianity? Why do you assume that such an explanation exists? Individual posters have given you explanations of their faith as they understand it, yet you demand more. Repeatedly saying "I don't understand these inconsistencies....EXPLAIN THEM !!!!!!" page after page in a thread is a debating tactic, not a request for information. If you really care, there is a whole wide world of Christion theology and apologetics out there for you to explore. Why don't you do that rather than giving us a bad PZ Mayers impersonation.

Well, many jumped on me for assuming that a Christian vow meant something, and many of those people self-identified as being Christian. I asked for an explanation as to what a vow was, yet no one seemed able to give one. Well, why not? I assume many of you here had a Christian wedding with Christian vows, yet no one was able to explain what those vows actually meant. I kept asking questions mainly because I was so shocked. I thought that any Christian would be able to answer that with ease. Well, then I learned that basically no one was able to give me a clear answer on Christianity, even if that person claimed to be Christian. My curiosity thus only multiplied. I really, truly, HONESTLY did not know that a person could (sincerely) claim to be a Christian and still not give less than a damn as to what is written in the Bible. I TRULY did not know that and it came as a jarring shock to me.

My original post began as common snark, but after it was taken at face value, I could not hide my complete and total shock at all the things I was reading about Christianity. It really was eye-opening to me. I figured that the Christian religion must surely have a logical explanation for things that I saw as glaring inconsistencies. I must say, that after reading a lot the post, I have read some very intelligent and well though-out explanations which I am grateful for and I am glad I asked the questions I did.

[meda]

Grammar Nazi time: It's "tenets", not "tenants". Sorry, but that really grinds my gears. :twisted:

I am picturing the tenants of Christianity as little hobbit like creatures in floral frumpers... :D WWJD as a landlord?

[RR88]

I am picturing the tenants of Christianity as little hobbit like creatures in floral frumpers... :D WWJD as a landlord?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[currywurst]

currywurst wrote:

tenants of Christianity.

Grammar Nazi time: It's "tenets", not "tenants". Sorry, but that really grinds my gears.

Thanks. I mean that sincerely. I love grammar nazis. No really. Every time I have to correct something like this I always curse every teacher I ever had who could not be bothered.

[RR88]

My original post began as common snark, but after it was taken at face value, I could not hide my complete and total shock at all the things I was reading about Christianity. It really was eye-opening to me. I figured that the Christian religion must surely have a logical explanation for things that I saw as glaring inconsistencies. I must say, that after reading a lot the post, I have read some very intelligent and well though-out explanations which I am grateful for and I am glad I asked the questions I did.

Few religions have a "logical explanation for things that I saw as glaring inconsistencies". Religions tend to be nonsensical that way.

[fluttershies]

Yeah, sure, that's totally cool. I am merely asking then how anyone could ask me to convert to Christianity when it clearly is something completely meaningless? What am I converting to then, exactly? And when politicians use Christianity as the basis for their entire political outlook, well then what does that mean, exactly?*

* disclaimer. I do not personally believe that most politicians who claim to be Christian are actually Christian. I think it is usually a cynical ploy on the part of the politician to get that voting block.

But it's not meaningless. Example - me and my best friend are both Christians. I'm Anglican, she's general evangelical. While the way we worship etc may be different, the fundamentals, ie belief in the redeeming death of Jesus, are what make us both Christians. So if you convert to Christianity in some kind of denomination-free vacuum, the Jesus stuff would be it (also the indwelling Holy Spirit).

[fluttershies]

Well, many jumped on me for assuming that a Christian vow meant something, and many of those people self-identified as being Christian. I asked for an explanation as to what a vow was, yet no one seemed able to give one. Well, why not? I assume many of you here had a Christian wedding with Christian vows, yet no one was able to explain what those vows actually meant. I kept asking questions mainly because I was so shocked. I thought that any Christian would be able to answer that with ease. Well, then I learned that basically no one was able to give me a clear answer on Christianity, even if that person claimed to be Christian. My curiosity thus only multiplied. I really, truly, HONESTLY did not know that a person could (sincerely) claim to be a Christian and still not give less than a damn as to what is written in the Bible. I TRULY did not know that and it came as a jarring shock to me.

My original post began as common snark, but after it was taken at face value, I could not hide my complete and total shock at all the things I was reading about Christianity. It really was eye-opening to me. I figured that the Christian religion must surely have a logical explanation for things that I saw as glaring inconsistencies. I must say, that after reading a lot the post, I have read some very intelligent and well though-out explanations which I am grateful for and I am glad I asked the questions I did.

Uh, actually, many people DID (including myself).

[Guest Anonymous]

Don't let your facts get in the way of currywurst's internet martyrdom, fluttershies.

[currywurst]

I'm picking up a lot of Aspergic traits. Currywurst, do you have Asperger's/are somewhere on the autistic spectrum? Your need for a neat explaination without any room for different interpretations seems like something a high-functioning autistic person would want. Your thoughts about teenage mothers giving up their children are very similar to those of people with Asperger's that I know - what's 'right' is important, and not feelings because feelings just don't register.

The explaination that Christianity is the umbrella faith and religions are the individual denominations is a good one, I think. I am an Anglican/Episcopalian, and while me and say, a Pentecostal might both be Christians, the way we express our faith is very different. Our churches look different, the music and liturgy used are different, even our holidays are different (a Pentecostal would not celebrate Candlemas!). Our religious routines are very different but we both share the same faith, and therefore the same Saviour.

Well why should I not want a neat explanation? No really. Should I not be able to demand that? After all, I constantly see politicians on the TV blabbering on about how they are Christian and would make Christian-based laws. Well, shit, if that is the case, then I better damn-well have a "neat" explanation. If there is no explanation, and if there is no way to explain the tenants of Christianity, then I do not see how anyone could even claim to be a "Christian." It would be the same thing as claiming to be absolutely nothing at all - totally fine by me, but then why even have the pretense of saying otherwise?

Why does it upset so many of you that I ask these questions? Many of you act as though the answers are already a "given" and that I am just a troll, but to me they are not a given. They are real questions that deserve real answers.

If every "Christian" out there was just living their own life and doing their own thing, then I would certainly agree that I should just mind my own business. But, if those people are going to use their "beliefs" as a way to deny basic rights to others, then I absolutely demand to know and understand what those beliefs are. Some here have self-identified as being Christian. I (naively) assumed that anyone who claimed to be Christian could explain all this with ease, but that was not the case at all. That is when I seriously started asking some questions. One argument against gay marriage is that is destroys the "sanctity" of heterosexual, Christian marriage. Well call me crazy but I always assumed the "sanctity" of that union stemmed from the vows. Well now I hear that the vows are actually meaningless. That was very surprising to me is all. It lead to a lot more questions.

[meda]

Well, many jumped on me for assuming that a Christian vow meant something, and many of those people self-identified as being Christian. I asked for an explanation as to what a vow was, yet no one seemed able to give one. Well, why not? I assume many of you here had a Christian wedding with Christian vows, yet no one was able to explain what those vows actually meant. I kept asking questions mainly because I was so shocked. I thought that any Christian would be able to answer that with ease. Well, then I learned that basically no one was able to give me a clear answer on Christianity, even if that person claimed to be Christian. My curiosity thus only multiplied. I really, truly, HONESTLY did not know that a person could (sincerely) claim to be a Christian and still not give less than a damn as to what is written in the Bible. I TRULY did not know that and it came as a jarring shock to me.

My original post began as common snark, but after it was taken at face value, I could not hide my complete and total shock at all the things I was reading about Christianity. It really was eye-opening to me. I figured that the Christian religion must surely have a logical explanation for things that I saw as glaring inconsistencies. I must say, that after reading a lot the post, I have read some very intelligent and well though-out explanations which I am grateful for and I am glad I asked the questions I did.

So basically you were shocked that the practicioners of a 2000 year old religious faith that has innumerable translations of the Bible and almost as many different denominations and sects with separate and distinct theologies would not have a single unified answer to your questions? You are really coming across as the smug atheist here....and I say that as a fellow atheist. At least have a working understanding of what you are critiquing.

[currywurst]

Uh, actually, many people DID (including myself).

Pardon, I believe you did. Were you the one who said it was just an agreement between two people like any other agreement? That came much later after many people had listed all the times you could break a vow. I appreciated the answer though.

Sorry that your answer just lead to more questions. My confusion was as to why it mattered to Christians to make a vow at all, if it basically had no holy, religious, or spiritual meaning.

[Guest Anonymous]

Well why should I not want a neat explanation? No really. Should I not be able to demand that? After all, I constantly see politicians on the TV blabbering on about how they are Christian and would make Christian-based laws. Well, shit, if that is the case, then I better damn-well have a "neat" explanation.

Okay, but go demand that shit from the people who are doing it. Who are not the people on this forum. You can demand all you want here but none of us owe you a damn thing.

Why does it upset so many of you that I ask these questions? Many of you act as though the answers are already a "given" and that I am just a troll, but to me they are not a given. They are real questions that deserve real answers.

Because you've been answered and you just keep nattering on about it. Because if you really wanted to know you would do a little research yourself and not come over here looking to be spoonfed. Why should people here do the work for you? Google. It's free.

**ETA: Plus there is still no consensus so you are asking for something that does not exist.

[currywurst]

So basically you were shocked that the practicioners of a 2000 year old religious faith that has innumerable translations of the Bible and almost as many different denominations and sects with separate and distinct theologies would not have a single unified answer to your questions? You are really coming across as the smug atheist here....and I say that as a fellow atheist. At least have a working understanding of what you are critiquing.

I am not shocked at all. It makes perfect sense. I am, however, in total shock that these same people feel that they are in a position to legislate how the rest of us should live based upon their "one, true religion."

I wish more people would call them out on it...sadly I appear to be in the minority :(

[Guest Anonymous]

I am not shocked at all. It makes perfect sense. I am, however, in total shock that these same people feel that they are in a position to legislate how the rest of us should live based upon their "one, true religion."

I wish more people would call them out on it...sadly I appear to be in the minority :(

What the fuck do you even go to this school?

Go walk barefoot down a dark hallway strewn with Legos forever you clueless troll.

[meda]

I am not shocked at all. It makes perfect sense. I am, however, in total shock that these same people feel that they are in a position to legislate how the rest of us should live based upon their "one, true religion."

I wish more people would call them out on it...sadly I appear to be in the minority :(

Maybe you haven't noticed yet, but many FJer's spend a lot of time calling them out on it, both here and in real life. You have come to the wrong forum if you are looking to be the lone voice of truth about scary fundamentalists.

Edited to note that Lissar said it better, probably because she believes in true biblical pet modesty.

[kpmom]

I am not shocked at all. It makes perfect sense. I am, however, in total shock that these same people feel that they are in a position to legislate how the rest of us should live based upon their "one, true religion."

I wish more people would call them out on it...sadly I appear to be in the minority :(

Yes, I wish someone would start a forum, or something, calling these people out on their hypocrisy. :roll: