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Take that Divorce! Or, my kids better not EVER divorce!


princessjo1988

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She feared for her life, during the tornado. After the tornado, she got this idea that she had been tested in her faith just like Job. :roll: I think the tornado made her more haughty and less humble. I don't think she is capable of understanding people outside her little bubble. Anyway, I just went to her blog and saw several posts which make me even more furious, for example "Why I’m Not Teaching My Children to Follow Their Dreams" and "Raising Men in a Man-Hating World". I can't stand this woman. Sometimes I wonder if she is delusional.

I think there's a huge difference between a one-time event, like a car accident or a weather-related trauma, and repeated abuse, where you're constantly in fear over a long period of time. But holy cripes, I agree with you that she can't see past her own nose. There's no understanding of other people in what she writes. None whatsoever.

Edited because 'between' only has three e's, and not the amount my computer decided it should have.

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I'm getting a definite No True Scotsman vibe from the bolded part.

While I'm not invested enough to comment on currywurst's take on this specific subject, I think I do understand where she's coming from (in a general sense) I freely admit that I think Christianity (and almost every other major religion) is pretty much shit, so maybe that's why I get it. A lot of people here like to comment on the fact that fundies tend to latch onto one or two specific passages from the Bible that back up their hateful view of the world and completely miss anything in the Bible that contradicts what they want to believe. However, a lot of moderate/liberal Christians do the same, from the other end of the spectrum. They latch onto a couple of the "feel good" passages and miss all the violent and horrible shit that they're supposed to follow and believe as well. Or they rationalize it away (just like a lot of fundies do)

I think currywurst is pointing out that if you're going to call yourself Christian and ignoring the shitty parts of the Bible because you don't like them, you're a hypocrite (just as much as the fundies who call themselves Christian and avoid the good parts of the Bible because they don't like them)

I can see how you could see the no true scotsman in what I posted and should have elaborated more. Christians, while saved by grace, are identified by their works. Anyone can talk the talk of Christianity, but if they're not walking the walk, the words are pointless. IMO, abusing a spouse and walking the Christan walk are mutually exclusive and it's a belief held by many. This is also why I don't consider most of the fundies we talk about here to be Christians. They may talk a whole lot, but I don't see them walking the walk. It may be judgmental on my part, but it's what I genuinely believe.

I can be accused of cherry picking and it's fine if you'd like to believe that. I don't believe that Christians are required to keep Old Testament laws, including the scripture of Leviticus, which many fundies use to justify their hatred of homosexuality. Most of the laws were written for a much different time and for reasons that no longer have any relevance in modern times. WE have a grasp on science, so we better understand the world we live in, we have a great deal of technology that wasn't available in those times and there's no reason to live by antiquated laws anymore. We've come a long way since the Old Testament and I see no reason to regress. If that's cherry picking... I guess I'm guilty of that. However, I'd rather be accused of that, than to be a bigot or intolerant. I believe that goes against the Biblical principles of loving each other as we love ourselves, which is much more important, IMO.

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I'm a Christian, though not Catholic. I take my wedding vows seriously but I have no issue with divorce. I also have no issue with gay marriage, because love is a great thing.

Not all Christians are as crazy pants as the fundies are. Most of us aren't. But many of us do take our vows seriously. My dad was married to my mom until the day she died from cancer. He remarried several years later because he had fulfilled his vows to my mom, but my mom told him to remarry because she didn't want him to be alone.

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Do most modern Christians consider the abuse thing to fall under Corinthians 7:15? I am seriously asking. Please I am not being facetious. I only ask because when I read the passage I was not able to make that leap. It says:

" But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace."

So basically, if you non-believer spouse chooses the leave you, let you may let them leave. You're not obligated to stay married to them in that circumstance. The passage does not give the believing spouse the option to leave the non-believer though. Perhaps there is another passage I did not read?

Honestly, after reading what the bible has to say about marriage and divorce, a divorce following a real Christian marriage ought to be a very rare event. Jesus hated divorce and sought to correct what he thought were too lenient of divorce laws from the Old Testament. I also did not find anything which said you could leave an abusive husband.

And please, people, PLEASE, I do not support this doctrine. I am simply pointing out that a lot of things "Christians" claim to have support from the bible are clearly just made up.

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I'm a Christian, though not Catholic. I take my wedding vows seriously but I have no issue with divorce. I also have no issue with gay marriage, because love is a great thing.

I personally think that is great. I do have a question for you, and this is serious (not sarcastic or rhetorical). If the Bible does not allow for gay marriage, and only allows for divorce under very narrow circumstances, then how do you claim to follow the Christian religion while ignoring some very fundamental Christian beliefs? I will concede that Jesus never talked about homosexuality, but he did talk about divorce, and he was very clear that divorce was bad. Was Jesus just wrong about this one thing and right about everything else?

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Honestly, I do think of the Bible and even Jesus' teachings as a guideline and not an end all, be all. My beliefs are different than other Christians, but I feel in my heart that it is the best way. No-one is going to know who is 'right' until they die so it's just best to live your life in a way you feel is right for you.

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Honestly, I do think of the Bible and even Jesus' teachings as a guideline and not an end all, be all. My beliefs are different than other Christians, but I feel in my heart that it is the best way. No-one is going to know who is 'right' until they die so it's just best to live your life in a way you feel is right for you.

That's cool. How do we define a "Christian" then these days? What is a Christian?

I ask because the fundies are convinced they are the only true Christians. I think fundies are totally nuts, but most of them at least appear sincere in their quest to follow scripture. So even though we laugh at fundie hair, the Bible does say it is "a glory to her." I guess I think it is odd that other people who call themselves Christians find this absurd. I mean, it is in the Bible. The feet washing shit is in the Bible too. There is lots of stuff about women's modesty in the Bible too. As I have said (many times) I am an atheist and I do not care how women dress, but as far as I can tell, all the fundies are doing with the long skirts thing is following what is said in scripture.

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The feet washing and other things like that are reflections of the world of the time the Bible was written. They were guidelines to help people be healthier and have no need in the modern world. Like the rule to stay away from your wife during 'that time of the month' because they were unclean - well, yes they were unclean back then because they didn't have modern things like tampons. So again no need in the modern world.

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The feet washing and other things like that are reflections of the world of the time the Bible was written. They were guidelines to help people be healthier and have no need in the modern world. Like the rule to stay away from your wife during 'that time of the month' because they were unclean - well, yes they were unclean back then because they didn't have modern things like tampons. So again no need in the modern world.

So Christianity can shift its beliefs and practices as much as it wants to conform with the modern world? When does it end? Is there a limit?

It seems to me that with enough conformity Christianity would basically cease to exists.

And, again with my disclaimer: this is a serious question.

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BTW, um, although the whole feet washing thing likely started as purely hygienic, I always thought it was more something to show spiritual and symbolic humility before God. For example, Catherine of Aragon used to wash the feet of the poor every year.

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I can see how you could see the no true scotsman in what I posted and should have elaborated more. Christians, while saved by grace, are identified by their works. Anyone can talk the talk of Christianity, but if they're not walking the walk, the words are pointless. IMO, abusing a spouse and walking the Christan walk are mutually exclusive and it's a belief held by many. This is also why I don't consider most of the fundies we talk about here to be Christians. They may talk a whole lot, but I don't see them walking the walk. It may be judgmental on my part, but it's what I genuinely believe.

I can be accused of cherry picking and it's fine if you'd like to believe that. I don't believe that Christians are required to keep Old Testament laws, including the scripture of Leviticus, which many fundies use to justify their hatred of homosexuality. Most of the laws were written for a much different time and for reasons that no longer have any relevance in modern times. WE have a grasp on science, so we better understand the world we live in, we have a great deal of technology that wasn't available in those times and there's no reason to live by antiquated laws anymore. We've come a long way since the Old Testament and I see no reason to regress. If that's cherry picking... I guess I'm guilty of that. However, I'd rather be accused of that, than to be a bigot or intolerant. I believe that goes against the Biblical principles of loving each other as we love ourselves, which is much more important, IMO.

But if the Bible is the unerring word of god then how can it be subject to change depending on cultural norms? If it's not the unerring word of god then what is it and why does it have any relevance? Sorry if this sounds rude, I just can't wrap my brain around this conundrum.

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But if the Bible is the unerring word of god then how can it be subject to change depending on cultural norms? If it's not the unerring word of god then what is it and why does it have any relevance? Sorry if this sounds rude, I just can't wrap my brain around this conundrum.

You're not alone. I can't either.

I think this is where fundies are so scary. I would say that most fundies are at least trying to sincerely follow the Bible. So we snark when fundies go on and on about being obedient to your husband and being a homemaker, but here it is, in the Bible:

"4 that they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the Word of God be not blasphemed."

Fundies will argue that people who do not follow this are not really Christian, and they make an excellent point. If you do not follow the Bible (the word of God) then are you really a Christian?

As I have said, I am not a Christian, and I do not follow any of this stuff. But what if I kept the same lifestyle I have now, but go around telling everyone I am Christian? What if someone pointed out to me that having pre-marital sex is not Christian? Would I just tell them that all stuff is old-fashioned and no longer applies to modern times? I would be right, but would that still be Christian? When does it end?

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BTW, um, although the whole feet washing thing likely started as purely hygienic, I always thought it was more something to show spiritual and symbolic humility before God. For example, Catherine of Aragon used to wash the feet of the poor every year.

I'm digging back years into my memory here. Forgive me if I get it wrong.

In Biblical times there were only a few jobs that slaves couldn't be ordered to do and washing feet was one of them. It was considered to be too lowly, even for a slave. So for Jesus to do this willingly was huge, socially. It was the same as when he interacted with lepers and the woman at the well (a woman having a sexual relationship with someone she wasn't married to) - these were people who were shunned by everyone else. Why else would a woman be at the well at 3pm? She had to go when she wouldn't be harassed.

Now take this guy and think about the message he preached. It was one of love. Do you really think he's going to condemn a woman for staying with an abusive spouse? The Bible wasn't written for a long time after he died and even then it was written in a patriarchal society. There are references that we still don't understand because they were relevant to the society of that time. Since then there have been many translations and many people claiming it as theirs - each with a different spin. That's why there are groups of Christians who believe totally different things to other Christians. Just like Jews, Muslims and Buddhists. You can't say that all Jews believe the same thing, or that all Muslims must follow the same rules. Different denominations will have different teachings. For all religions, not just Christianity.

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I'm not going to argue - I don't think Christianity is going to disappear because God does still touch the hearts of the believers. Christianity is not logical, it's a matter of faith. If you don't have faith, you can't really understand so it's fruitless to really try. I can understand how illogical it seems, but if you are unbeliever it shouldn't really matter to you.

Yes, I know there are politicians who try and force their beliefs on everyone. But this is still a very small subset of Christians. Most of us don't want to force our beliefs on anyone and just want to live our lives.

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Part of believing in a religion, be it Christianity or any other religion, is ultimately it is between you and your deity(ies). People who argue that their way is the only way completely ignore the historical richness of their particular holy book and traditions. Some things no longer practically apply (say headcoverings to keep the sand out of your eyes), but some people choose to interpret their holy texts as still requiring it.

And it is interesting to watch how certain fundies also pick and choose the things they believe (not showing a thigh because of a line of scripture or abstaining from eating pork, but not covering their heads or wearing poly-cotton blend clothing). Read "The Year of Living Biblically" to see some of the more obscure Judeo-Christian laws that even the most 'devout' believers choose not to follow.

Because these holy books and laws are a product of their specific historical time, there are always going to be things that aren't answered or covered for modern times. Thus believes are given the privilege of reading their holy texts and the writings of people considered 'holy' or 'saintly', spending time in reflection or prayer, and trying to decide what they believe. The trouble comes when believers try to legislate their particular beliefs, as if religion were truly one size fits all. Sometimes religious legalists' beliefs coincide with other conservative beliefs and there appears to be this unified voice of Conservative Christianity shouting down the fragmented voices of opposition. We've seen this with the Duggars supporting a Roman Catholic, or the Mormans becoming highly involved with the Prop 8 rulings in California.

Ultimately, currywurst, you are correct. It is hypocritical. But that is part of being religious or spiritual. If you look carefully legalist Christians, such as GC Kelly, engage as much in the kind of pick-and-choose Christianity as others. They just don't care if you point out their hypocrisy because they are convinced they are right and that they hold the Ultimate Truth.

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Now take this guy and think about the message he preached.

Well, he said if someone sinned against you to forgive 7 times 70. So by that rationale, a woman should forgive her abusive husband. Right? No? I totally disagree with Jesus here, but since this is one of the basic tenants of Christianity, I would think most Christians would follow it.

I suppose as an unbeliever I do not understand very well, which is why I am asking. I do not see what is wrong with being interested in how a religion works, especially when there is so much infighting. I feel like a lot of Christians think that my asking of these questions is a bad thing. I get the feeling many of you just sort of want to blow me off by telling me that I would not understand. Well, make me understand. I am not asking for people to "argue." I am interested in how all this works. I am not bashing your religion, I am merely confused how all this shit actually works. I really, honestly do not get it. Apparently, from what I have read from many of you here, there is no requirement of Christianity to actually follow the Bible. Do I have that right?

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I pretty much said the exact same thing currywurst is saying to a fundie who came here a couple of months ago. She was going on about how all the laws in America should be founded on the Bible and then I pointed out that the Bible doesn't list abuse as a reason for divorce. And then she was like "Oh shit. No it doesn't. Well in that case we will skip that part of the Bible." Abuse doesn't fall under the non-believer part because you can be a believer and still do shitty things. Just look at David, a man after God's own heart and he fucking murdered someone.

Christians pick and choose what part of the Bible they follow and they should just own up to it. You would as crazy as this woman if you didn't, so it isn't like it is a bad thing.

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Um,I am not assigning any rules. These people assigned the rules to themselves.

You're kidding, right? Someone (Raine) already gave you the verses of the Bible that say to not make vows, so you're only following this crazy idea of yours. No one assigned anything except for you when you said that was how it works. It's not how it works to every Christian.

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Christians pick and choose what part of the Bible they follow and they should just own up to it. You would as crazy as this woman if you didn't, so it isn't like it is a bad thing.

Well, then my question is, are these people really Christians? This is a serious question. I am sure I could find lot of things in the Koran that I would agree with and happily follow. Would that make me a Muslim? Is there a certain percentage of the Bible you have to believe in and follow in order to be a Christian? (i.e. at least 50%?) Or do you just have to believe in, and follow everything Christ said?

I am seriously asking this. It has confused me for some time.

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Quote:

Quote:

...if you are devout Christian, and you make a vow to God, then you cannot break that vow. Thems the rules. You don't like it, you don't have to subscribe to Christianity...

You can't assign rules for a specific portion of married people, based on the wording of their marriage ceremonies, and then turn around and say you don't care about their marriages.

Um,I am not assigning any rules. These people assigned the rules to themselves.

You're kidding, right? Someone (Raine) already gave you the verses of the Bible that say to not make vows, so you're only following this crazy idea of yours. No one assigned anything except for you when you said that was how it works. It's not how it works to every Christian.

So then making vows is unChristian?

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Well, then my question is, are these people really Christians? This is a serious question. I am sure I could find lot of things in the Koran that I would agree with and happily follow. Would that make me a Muslim? Is there a certain percentage of the Bible you have to believe in and follow in order to be a Christian? (i.e. at least 50%?) Or do you just have to believe in, and follow everything Christ said?

I am seriously asking this. It has confused me for some time.

IMO the only requirement to being a Christian is to believe in Christ as the saviour. Following Christ would be a good start, but not even he listed abuse as a reason for divorce.

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Correct me if I am wrong, but I heard that Jesus was referring to the then-common practice of simply putting away a wife, instead of divorcing her, to get out of returning the dowry and giving a divorce settlement. The husband could marry again, but the wife was in a weird limbo because she could not enter into any contracts or marry or do anything except live on the margins of society in poverty.

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Jesus said that according to Moses you could put your wife away, but Jesus said that after marriage you become one flesh and no one should end that.

"'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8 and the two shall become one flesh.' So they are no longer two but one flesh. 9 What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder."

There was no exception for abuse and I am sure there was plenty of abuse going on at that time, but Jesus didn't list that as a reason a woman could leave her husband and divorce him.

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IMO the only requirement to being a Christian is to believe in Christ as the saviour. Following Christ would be a good start, but not even he listed abuse as a reason for divorce.

Yeah I have heard that too. That is something else I guess I do not really understand. I mean I really, truly, non-facetiously do not understand that. If you believe he is the savior, wouldn't that mean that you believe his message to the people of the world is what saves? In other words, there must be something tangible attached to that belief. He came to earth to "save" us. Well what does that mean? I have never understood this very well. I guess I always thought it meant that by following what Christ said, you would be "saved." In other words, you would live a good, Godly life by doing what Christ preached. But I also hear that you do not need to follow what Jesus said, you just need to think he is your savior.

I am so confused. :?

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Jesus said that according to Moses you could put your wife away, but Jesus said that after marriage you become one flesh and no one should end that.

"'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8 and the two shall become one flesh.' So they are no longer two but one flesh. 9 What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder."

There was no exception for abuse and I am sure there was plenty of abuse going on at that time, but Jesus didn't list that as a reason a woman could leave her husband and divorce him.

Yeah, I was reading the bible last night and that is what I came up with too. Jesus made getting a divorce even more difficult. According to teaching of Jesus, an abused woman should forgive her husband and not divorce him. (he never expressly said that, but that is the best conclusion I can draw from what he DID say) I also saw nothing in the Bible that would lead me to believe that an abuser should be considered a "non-believer" and thus divorcable. In fact, the bible seems pretty clear that you, as the believer, cannot divorce the non-believer. All you can do is acquiesce if he or she leaves you.

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