Take that Divorce! Or, my kids better not EVER divorce!

[apple1]

I am so confused. :?

No. You are posting things to keep argument going.

Edited to fix the grammar.

[Eoywin]

No. You are post things to keep argument going.

Agreed with apple1! My best friend, who is agnostic, and I have the most interesting religious conversations because we have mutual respect and both are quite intelligent.

[formergothardite]

Yeah I have heard that too. That is something else I guess I do not really understand. I mean I really, truly, non-facetiously do not understand that. If you believe he is the savior, wouldn't that mean that you believe his message to the people of the world is what saves? In other words, there must be something tangible attached to that belief. He came to earth to "save" us. Well what does that mean? I have never understood this very well. I guess I always thought it meant that by following what Christ said, you would be "saved." In other words, you would live a good, Godly life by doing what Christ preached. But I also hear that you do not need to follow what Jesus said, you just need to think he is your savior.

I am so confused. :?

I'm no longer a Christian, but one can believe in Christ as the saviour and also understand that the Bible is a very old collection of writings that were put together by men and isn't really the divine word of God. So you can follow Christ and still not do everything the Bible says.

[currywurst]

apple1 wrote:

currywurst wrote:

I am so confused.

No. You are post things to keep argument going.

Agreed with apple1! My best friend, who is agnostic, and I have the most interesting religious conversations because we have mutual respect and both are quite intelligent.

I do not see where I was disrespectful. I never called anyone a name or anything, or told them they were stupid. Even if this was an argument, what is wrong with that? Should we never discuss what these things really mean? Should we never disagree, or question things? I am asking some serious questions about religious beliefs (which we snark on here).

Please let me know how we can discuss this without me being a "troll." I need some guidance, because I think this is a very interesting, important topic to discuss, and yet many of you seem upset about that. I used the vows example to make a point. I think quite a lot of you understood that, but many of you did not. I am glad it got some people to thinking.

What is a vow?

What does it mean?

What are the consequences of breaking it?

When may you, according to Christian belief, break that vow?

What did Jesus really say about divorce?

What does the term "Christian" even mean?

Are making vows actually unchristian? (I thought that was very interesting, BTW)

Does a true Christian even have to follow the Bible at all?

I learned a lot from this "argument," so I will count it as educational. I learned that, according to Protestant belief, a vow is basically just an agreement between two people that can be broken at any time. I thought that was interesting.

[currywurst]

I'm no longer a Christian, but one can believe in Christ as the saviour and also understand that the Bible is a very old collection of writings that were put together by men and isn't really the divine word of God. So you can follow Christ and still not do everything the Bible says.

Interesting. So belief in the Bible as the divine word of God is not a prerequisite to being a Christian?

I am still sort of confused on the savior thing though. I do not truly understand what believing in Christ as your savior truly means.

And, please, do not tell me I am trying to keep an argument going. I really, honestly do NOT understand this. I was not raised in this religion. I am asking those that were to please explain it to me. I would love to understand where fundies are coming from. Most of them seem pretty sincere (though nuts).

[apple1]

I learned a lot from this "argument," so I will count it as educational. I learned that, according to Protestant belief, a vow is basically just an agreement between two people that can be broken at any time. I thought that was interesting.

With every post you make, you prove what I said. Just posting to keep things going, including misrepresenting what someone said (on any side of the issue under discussion).

Keep it up, and no one will be interacting with you, regardless of their personal viewpoint on anything.

Amazing how someone has time to make 40 posts or so a day, assuming any thought is being put into the posts, and to have any life at all outside the internet.

[emmiedahl]

Jesus said that according to Moses you could put your wife away, but Jesus said that after marriage you become one flesh and no one should end that.

"'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8 and the two shall become one flesh.' So they are no longer two but one flesh. 9 What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder."

There was no exception for abuse and I am sure there was plenty of abuse going on at that time, but Jesus didn't list that as a reason a woman could leave her husband and divorce him.

"putting away" would end the one-fleshness of marriage as much as divorce. It is significant that Jesus points out the woman is still his wife, because if there had been a Jewish divorce she would not be.

There is a discussion here of the two words used in the Bible to end a marriage, one meaning divorce and the other meaning to put away or separate. http://www.divorcehope.com/godhatesdivorce.htm The site is a little bright and crazy, but it makes the same hermeneutical argument that I have heard before.

[currywurst]

With every post you make, you prove what I said. Just posting to keep things going, including misrepresenting what someone said (on any side of the issue under discussion).

Keep it up, and no one will be interacting with you, regardless of their personal viewpoint on anything.

Amazing how someone has time to make 40 posts or so a day, assuming any thought is being put into the posts, and to have any life at all outside the internet.

Forgive me, I had been literally bed-ridden sick for days. You do not have to post or take part in this discussion if you do not want to.

I do not see where I misrepresented what anyone said. I simply thought this doctrine/dogma/whatever was something in Christianity that was not particularly clear.

Um, I do not really understand how I managed to offend you so horribly. You seem to really dislike me. I never called you any name or told you off or told you were stupid. I am sort of confused about this. If I disagree with you on something, it is because we have a differing opinion, it is not anything personal against you.

[formergothardite]

Interesting. So belief in the Bible as the divine word of God is not a prerequisite to being a Christian?

I am still sort of confused on the savior thing though. I do not truly understand what believing in Christ as your savior truly means.

And, please, do not tell me I am trying to keep an argument going. I really, honestly do NOT understand this. I was not raised in this religion. I am asking those that were to please explain it to me. I would love to understand where fundies are coming from. Most of them seem pretty sincere (though nuts).

Unless there is a major drama I have missed with you, I don't get the troll vibe at all and don't understand why people are getting all upset with you questioning these things.

No, believing the Bible is divine isn't a prerequisite to being a Christian.

Christians believe that people are born sinful and that the only way to be saved from going to hell is to believe in Christ. Believing in Christ wipes away your sin and you can get to go to heaven. BUT there are all different variations of this from people who believe in universal reconciliation (that after death everyone will be given the choice to accept Christ) to Calvinist (who belive God created most of the people in the world incapable of getting salvation and that there are only a select few who will actually be 'saved'). It is really confusing and I was raised Christian.

[currywurst]

Unless there is a major drama I have missed with you, I don't get the troll vibe at all and don't understand why people are getting all upset with you questioning these things.

No, believing the Bible is divine isn't a prerequisite to being a Christian.

Christians believe that people are born sinful and that the only way to be saved from going to hell is to believe in Christ. Believing in Christ wipes away your sin and you can get to go to heaven. BUT there are all different variations of this from people who believe in universal reconciliation (that after death everyone will be given the choice to accept Christ) to Calvinist (who belive God created most of the people in the world incapable of getting salvation and that there are only a select few who will actually be 'saved'). It is really confusing and I was raised Christian.

Thank you for the explanation. This explains a lot of my confusion. So then, are fundies those that believe that you have to follow and believe in the Bible in order to be a true Christian?

[formergothardite]

Fundies are diverse. Most claim that you have to follow the whole Bible, but most do not.

[currywurst]

Do fundies who "follow the bible" think that Christians who only believe in the Jesus as savior thing are not real Christians?

I did not know half this stuff before :shock:

[formergothardite]

"putting away" would end the one-fleshness of marriage as much as divorce. It is significant that Jesus points out the woman is still his wife, because if there had been a Jewish divorce she would not be.

There is a discussion here of the two words used in the Bible to end a marriage, one meaning divorce and the other meaning to put away or separate. http://www.divorcehope.com/godhatesdivorce.htm The site is a little bright and crazy, but it makes the same hermeneutical argument that I have heard before.

I'm a tad confused, isn't Jesus saying that if God joins people together, that no one should seperate the two? No one should end the one-fleshness of marriage. So that would include both the putting away and the divorce.

[formergothardite]

Do fundies who "follow the bible" think that Christians who only believe in the Jesus as savior thing are not real Christians?

I did not know half this stuff before :shock:

Fundies usually think that they are the only "real" christians.

[emmiedahl]

I'm a tad confused, isn't Jesus saying that if God joins people together, that no one should seperate the two? No one should end the one-fleshness of marriage. So that would include both the putting away and the divorce.

If you look at the actual words he uses, it appears he is saying not to separate without divorcing. Not to leave your wife high and dry, but to give her a divorce settlement and let her go.

[formergothardite]

But what about women divorcing men? Was that even an option?

[emmiedahl]

But what about women divorcing men? Was that even an option?

At the time, I don't think so. I believe you can write your marriage contract so that the woman has the right to divorce, but it is not something that is assumed the way it is with men.

[formergothardite]

At the time, I don't think so. I believe you can write your marriage contract so that the woman has the right to divorce, but it is not something that is assumed the way it is with men.

So it still comes back to the Bible not saying that a woman can leave and divorce an abusive man unless the man lets her, which most abusive men won't.

[Guest Anonymous]

Unless there is a major drama I have missed with you, I don't get the troll vibe at all and don't understand why people are getting all upset with you questioning these things.

She's said some really questionable/gross stuff on other threads, and seems to be an attention seeker at best and a troll at worst in my opinion. I personally have a hard time buying an atheist who is so incredibly het up about people doing the Bible wrong. Not only this thread, but a previous one where she said:

Am I the only one who thinks that using Bible quotes to justify why you left a weight-loss television game show is rather sacrilegious?

I don't know, something seems off.

currywurst, if you aren't trolling then your problem seems to be that you think there's one true way that all Christians should be following the Bible. There is no consensus about that. There are loads of interpretations of the same verses. You seem to want everyone to agree on one right way but that will never happen. You're also super concerned with liberal Christians picking and choosing what they believe. As long as people don't want to inflict their beliefs on others I don't understand what the big deal is there. That's the difference between your run of the mill religious person and a fundie. Run of the mill person minds their own business, fundies want everyone to do it their way. One of those people affects me, and one doesn't. If it doesn't affect me, it's none of my business.

[Kaylee]

But what about women divorcing men? Was that even an option?

At the time and in that culture, no. A man could give his permission to, but the final say was still left up to the man.

This could be one big reason abuse was no mentioned. A man back then would most likely not admit to being physically abused by his wife as a reason for divorce, considering how even current society tends to treat men in that position. Women were not going to be divorcing men anyway, so it was just not brought up.

[bicyclecat]

But if the Bible is the unerring word of god then how can it be subject to change depending on cultural norms? If it's not the unerring word of god then what is it and why does it have any relevance? Sorry if this sounds rude, I just can't wrap my brain around this conundrum.

The Bible isn't subject to change, due to cultural norms necessarily. However, Christians are no longer bound to Old Testament laws, due to the New Covenant made with Christ. Due to the sacrifice of Christ, we no longer need to make our own sacrifices of animals, keep the old laws or anything like that.

Hebrews 8:10 sums it up: "This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people." Also, in Luke 22:20, Jesus said "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you." Finally, we have the scripture of Jeremiah 31:31-33 31 “The days are coming,†declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,†declares the LORD. 33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,†declares the LORD. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

All of the written laws in Leviticus and other books of the Bible were meant for those who lived prior to the Crucifixion of Christ. The didn't have the grace that we had, but rather had to rely on works, in order to gain salvation. Since the death and resurrection of Christ, we have the Holy Spirit to guide us and no longer need to rely on Old Testament decrees, in order to live our lives in accordance with God's law.

[RR88]

The Bible isn't subject to change, due to cultural norms necessarily. However, Christians are no longer bound to Old Testament laws, due to the New Covenant made with Christ. Due to the sacrifice of Christ, we no longer need to make our own sacrifices of animals, keep the old laws or anything like that.

Hebrews 8:10 sums it up: "This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people." Also, in Luke 22:20, Jesus said "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you." Finally, we have the scripture of Jeremiah 31:31-33 31 “The days are coming,†declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,†declares the LORD. 33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,†declares the LORD. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

All of the written laws in Leviticus and other books of the Bible were meant for those who lived prior to the Crucifixion of Christ. The didn't have the grace that we had, but rather had to rely on works, in order to gain salvation. Since the death and resurrection of Christ, we have the Holy Spirit to guide us and no longer need to rely on Old Testament decrees, in order to live our lives in accordance with God's law.

Why include the Old Testament in the first place, then? And that still doesn't address the fact that at one point in time, God supposedly DID sanction rape, genocide, and slavery. Does God change?

[alysee]

The Bible isn't subject to change, due to cultural norms necessarily. However, Christians are no longer bound to Old Testament laws, due to the New Covenant made with Christ. Due to the sacrifice of Christ, we no longer need to make our own sacrifices of animals, keep the old laws or anything like that.

Hebrews 8:10 sums it up: "This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people." Also, in Luke 22:20, Jesus said "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you." Finally, we have the scripture of Jeremiah 31:31-33 31 “The days are coming,†declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,†declares the LORD. 33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,†declares the LORD. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

All of the written laws in Leviticus and other books of the Bible were meant for those who lived prior to the Crucifixion of Christ. The didn't have the grace that we had, but rather had to rely on works, in order to gain salvation. Since the death and resurrection of Christ, we have the Holy Spirit to guide us and no longer need to rely on Old Testament decrees, in order to live our lives in accordance with God's law.

There are still people who believe the Old Testament laws that say things are abomination as well as the 10 commandments are still binding...that's what I've heard at least.

[formergothardite]

Why include the Old Testament in the first place, then? And that still doesn't address the fact that at one point in time, God supposedly DID sanction rape, genocide, and slavery. Does God change?

Jesus also said he didn't come to do away with the law.

[Wolfie]

Hello....that is what I have been asking. That is the discussion I have been trying to have with all of you! What is a vow then, if it is not something sacred and unbreakable? This is the point I have been trying to drive home! What is a vow? I agree with all of you on the reasons to get a divorce. I think those are all fine reasons. Cool. I do not personally think that a vow before god in unbreakable....I do not even believe in god. What I am asking is what a vow means according to Christian belief. It would be my understanding that a vow to God is an incredibly solemn, life-long, unbreakable promise (without severe spiritual consequences). So I am seriously asking, what is a Christian marriage vow then?

There is also the fact that Jesus said many times that God will forgive your mistakes- so if you take a vow that ends up being a big mistake, it shouldn't be taken lightly, BUT God will forgive you as well.