NON-fundy parents how would you handle this

[1004srs]

I am not okay with the extreme pushiness on hot button issues - especially on the interwebz. I think (and I am allowed to have an opinion) that we should support parents and show them kindness. Lead by example.

Shoving your opinion on someone makes you look like a fundie.......

(Remember Steve Maxwell and the poor Olive Garden waitress?)

[1004srs]

So, to people who are shoving their opinions on others -

What do you do when you see someone at WalMart or the park smack their kid? Do you walk the walk? DO you run up to them and tell them how wrong they are - potentially making the situation worse for the child?

[Koala]

It was meant to be interesting reading. Nothing else.

Oh, okay! Sorry.

I am not putting my opinion out there. However, there are "studies" on both sides.

When I read that I thought you would be actually posting a link to the studies from the "other side". I wasn't expecting sermon notes from a church.

[1004srs]

SOrry - single Mom with 2 hungry little kids. Internet takes second place sometimes.....

[keeperrox]

So, to people who are shoving their opinions on others -

What do you do when you see someone at WalMart or the park smack their kid? Do you walk the walk? DO you run up to them and tell them how wrong they are - potentially making the situation worse for the child?

#1, I don't shop at Walmart. #2, I've never witnessed someone hitting their child. I guess people around here know not to abuse their kid in public, because it does get reported.

[Koala]

I am not okay with the extreme pushiness on hot button issues

See I kind of am. There has been a need for "extreme pushiness" many times in history, and because people had the guts to do it, things changed for the better.

Thank goodness for pushy people. In some countries it's illegal to hit children-and all because of the pushy people.

[1004srs]

It is fairly common in the flyover states.....

[Koala]

SOrry - single Mom with 2 hungry little kids. Internet takes second place sometimes.....

Since you had time to dig up the sermon notes I figured it would have been just as easy to link the studies you were referring to. Since you're posting now, would you like to post them?

[emmiedahl]

How is it "pushy" for me to share my opinion on the internet? srsly, I think "pushy" has a higher standard of behavior. I am advocating for good parenting. I am not making anyone do anything, I am not accosting people on the street or knocking on doors. I have a goddamn opinion, and it is one that is supported by science and one that that does not harm anyone. ffs, that is not extreme pushiness. I don't give a damn if someone feels that my having an opinion is persecution, get the fuck over it already.

[formergothardite]

I am not okay with the extreme pushiness on hot button issues - especially on the interwebz. I think (and I am allowed to have an opinion) that we should support parents and show them kindness. Lead by example.

Shoving your opinion on someone makes you look like a fundie.......

(Remember Steve Maxwell and the poor Olive Garden waitress?)

So speaking out against adults hitting small children now makes me just like Steve Maxwell? I'm not going to act supportive towards people who say hitting children is fine. How can we lead by example if we don't point out that hitting their child is wrong?

Since spanking is legal, confronting a stranger in public will do no good. If they are hitting their child a lot, I have complained to a store manager and once they did go and say something to the parent.

But this is a discussion, so it isn't the same as the stranger in Walmart scenerio at all.

[debrand]

To be fair to Elle, I am trying to look over her links. Because I do things backwards, I started with her last link. Chances are, I won't get through them all tonight.

In Deley's (1988) comparative study of child abuse 9 years after the prohibition of corporal punishment, 10.7% of American men and 8.2% of American women sampled stated that they had been victims of child abuse as children, compared to 3.9% of Swedish men and 0% of Swedish women in the sample. Finally, according to Joan Durrant, professor of family studies at the University of Manitoba in Canada, "Sweden went from a family violence- child death rate of 18% in 1970 to 0 percent in recent years" (Hyman 1997:215).

This seems to support not using spanking as a form of punishment so I am not certain why Elle included it. Elle, was there something in this particular article that supported your view? I might have overlooked it.

http://voices.yahoo.com/the-effects-no- ... tml?cat=72

[debrand]

The second article from the bottom is from the Nordic Committee For Human Rights and The Protection of Family Rights in Nordic Countries

On this page, they list a tribute to Nancy Schaefer of the Eagle Forum Congress. According to the unreliable wikipage

Throughout her career as an activist and politician, she was a champion of Christian conservative causes, opposing abortion and gay rights and promoting the display of the Ten Commandments in public places.[3][2] Upon her death, fellow State Senator Ralph Hudgens eulogized her as "almost like a rock star of the Christian right".[7] She was a senior official in the Baptist church, having served as a First Vice President of the Georgia Baptist Convention.[3]

It sounds as if the site is biased however I am including the entire article so that Swedish people on this site can comment on iwhether the article is true or not

In two television interviews with Swedish human rights campaigner Ruby Harrold-Claesson, Green MP Sue Bradford has claimed that child abuse causing death in Sweden is about one child every four years, and one a month in New Zealand. She claims that these statistics are one reason why we should ban smacking.

Harrold-Claesson disagrees. She has said that between 1965-1999 285 kids died at the hands of their Swedish caregivers. That's seven per year.

Bradford never said that reported child abuse in Sweden since the 1979 smacking ban has increased up to 500 percent In one Swedish police district alone, 145 confirmed cases of caregiver abuse occured from 1986-1996.

Yet Canadian Psychologist Joan Durrant, who visited this country in Feburary said child abuse in Sweden was virtually zero. She didnt want anyone to know that one child had been murdered in Sweden at the hands of caregivers the previous month, in addition to one murdered that same month.

Time for some fact-checking.

In January one little disabled boy was beaten to death in Sweden. "Bobby's" mother and her partner were jailed for 10 years last month for beating the boy.Another man is currently in custody in Stockholm for murdering his stepdaugher last month. Another parent admitted murdering her son in February

Another boy died at the hands of his adopted parents earlier this year. He was four, and social workers failed in their duty to stop the abuse.

Because of all the child abuse in Sweden, its government is setting up a special commission to investigate cases where children die in violent circumstances.

Sweden's public health Minister, Morgan Johansson, has said,

Every year, eight to ten, sometimes as many as twelve children die in Sweden due to violence. This has been true for several years.

Sue Bradford wants to ban smacking in New Zealand to minimise child abuse. Yet Sweden's Child Ombudsman Lena Nyberg said this recently.

We are getting more and more signals that children are being subjected to physical punishment, and we also know that the number of reported incidents of child abuse is increasing.

So, why use Sweden as an example of how well a ban on smacking is working?

Denmark banned smacking in 1997.Perhaps they could use Denmark as an example of how a smacking ban could get rid of child abuse - except that child abuse rose after the ban.

update In 1994 Joan Durrant wanted to find out how much smacking had decreased after the 1979 ban. She did a survey for Save the Children, and unfortunately for her, it found that corporal punishment of teenagers was just as bad after the 1979 ban as in prior generations and that, overall, corporal punishment had decreased very little. So they decided not to publish it. I wonder why?

[1004srs]

I am NOT for spanking. I am for being kind to others who make decisions that don't agree with my beliefs.

You CAN find studies to prove anything. So, posting studies and reading from the internet doesn't mean anything other than you can google. Yawn.....

http://www.newsmax.com/US/spanking-stud ... /id/345669

http://www.psychpage.com/family/disc.html

THis one is an interesting study. SHe doesn't really prove anything, just studies the studies....

[Conuly]

When you redefine spanking legally to be child abuse, can it at all be a shock when child abuse rates climb dramatically just afterwards? That doesn't mean abuse has increased, it means we're measuring it differently!

[debrand]

I have never been to this site before and have no idea if it is accurate. According to Prevent Child Abuse in America:

How many children die each year?

Child Fatalities: The death of a child is the most tragic consequence as a result of child abuse. In 2007, an estimated 1,760 children died as a result of child abuse and neglect, a rate of 2.35 per 100,000 U.S. children and Puerto Rico.

References

U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Administration on Children, Youth and Families. Child Maltreatment 2007: (Washington, DC: U.S. Government Printing Office, 2009). The report is available by calling the Child Welfare Information Gateway at (800) FYI-3366 or on the Internet. http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/pubs/cm07/cm07.pdf [pdf]

The worst estimates for Swedish deaths from child abuse are seven in a year. In America it is 1,750 children. :think:

http://www.preventchildabuse.org/about_ ... .shtml#die

[debrand]

I am NOT for spanking. I am for being kind to others who make decisions that don't agree with my beliefs.

You CAN find studies to prove anything. So, posting studies and reading from the internet doesn't mean anything other than you can google. Yawn.....

http://www.newsmax.com/US/spanking-stud ... /id/345669

http://www.psychpage.com/family/disc.html

THis one is an interesting study. SHe doesn't really prove anything, just studies the studies....

I am trying to be respectful to Elle and read her links. Thus far, they don't prove that spanking isn't harmful.In the morning, if this is still an active thread, I will try to read more.

[1004srs]

HOw about supporting and teaching others? Kindness goes a long way.

Kind of like the prolifers that are against abortion and contraception, but don't foster children. Don't help provide resources for parents. Rant and rave all day long, but do something constructive and it goes a lot further.

[Conuly]

Note: We have a little over 300 million people in America, Sweden has just under 9 and a half million. (Sweden has a population slightly larger than that of NYC, but much smaller than that of the NYC metro area.)

So we can say they have somewhat less than 1 person for every 30 people in the US. (That's very easy math! The exact numbers, I'm not sure of.)

HOw about supporting and teaching others? Kindness goes a long way.

That goes for parenting as well. Sometimes the choice shouldn't be between spanking and other forms of punishment. Sometimes it's best to get out of the punitive mindset altogether. (But it's HARD. I know.)

[Feberin]

So, to people who are shoving their opinions on others -

What do you do when you see someone at WalMart or the park smack their kid? Do you walk the walk? DO you run up to them and tell them how wrong they are - potentially making the situation worse for the child?

Unless it had crossed the line from spanking to beating where physical injury of the child was taking place I wouldn't approach them. I might disagree with spanking but I don't feel a couple of swats are bad enough to get social services involved or anything. My SIL spanks her son and I very much disagree with it. She knows I disagree with it. But I'm not going to call CPS or anything because she spanks her children. However if it reached a point where I felt my nephew was in serious danger then I would be calling.

I think the internet is the perfect place to shove your opinion down people's throats. This isn't a parenting resource website and Elle didn't come on asking for help. We're debating the topic! If it gets to be too much for somebody they can stop reading this thread. It's not like we're following somebody around in real life with signs.

[1004srs]

So, if you see someone at WalMart/Target/Where ever/the park/whatever all organic store......and they are striking their child, do you intervene? DO you tell them to stop? Do you call the police? Do you volunteer with organizations like Parents as Teachers? Do you volunteer by helping your neighbors with young children? DO you ever take a meal over to the youngster that lives near you and is raising her child by herself?

or do you just look down people who hit their children because you are obviously better than them.

[1004srs]

I am more about doing something to help whatever cause I strongly believe in. Do something to help.

Now, I have to help myself by going to bed. :)

[debrand]

Note: We have a little over 300 million people in America, Sweden has just under 9 and a half million. (Sweden has a population slightly larger than that of NYC, but much smaller than that of the NYC metro area.)

So we can say they have somewhat less than 1 person for every 30 people in the US. (That's very easy math! The exact numbers, I'm not sure of.)

That goes for parenting as well. Sometimes the choice shouldn't be between spanking and other forms of punishment. Sometimes it's best to get out of the punitive mindset altogether. (But it's HARD. I know.)

I am a bit tired so my brain is foggy. According to Prevent Child Abuse 2.35 per 100,00 children died because of child abuse. I tried to do the math for 9,000,000 and came up with 211.5. Correct me if I am way off. But doesn't that mean that to equal American rates of death by child abuse, Sweden would need for 211.5 children to have died?

I divided 9,000,000 by 100,000 and multiplied by 2.35.

http://www.preventchildabuse.org/about_ ... .shtml#die

[debrand]

It is fairly common in the flyover states.....

I've lived in Iowa and parts of the south. Even though I know that most people believe in spanking, I've never seen it done in public.

[emmiedahl]

At least one of the studies 1004srs cited comes out firmly against spanking. Just saying. That last link found that many spanking studies are unreliable and that among the ones that are reliable it was found to increase aggression and have no positive impact on long term behavior.

[Koala]

I am NOT for spanking. I am for being kind to others who make decisions that don't agree with my beliefs.

Are you kind to racists?

Are you kind to men who beat their wives?

Are you kind to people who want to deny women their rights?

I mean you wouldn't want to push your opinion down their throats or anything. If a man wants to beat his wife, all we can do is be kind to him right? Probably shouldn't call the police either...like you pointed out in your "kid in Wal-mart getting hit" scenario, if someone speaks up, it might actually cause the abuse to escalate. No, it's much better just to be kind. :roll:

DO you run up to them and tell them how wrong they are - potentially making the situation worse for the child woman?

Sorry 1004srs, If an adult is taking it upon themselves to hit a defenseless child then you can be damn well sure I'm going speak up.