NON-fundy parents how would you handle this

[Koala]

At least one of the studies 1004srs cited comes out firmly against spanking. Just saying. That last link found that many spanking studies are unreliable and that among the ones that are reliable it was found to increase aggression and have no positive impact on long term behavior.

I swear they don't read this shit before they post it.

[emmiedahl]

I know good parents who spank. They usually do other things, and save the spankings for those showdown moments we all have with children. I think in the wash, their children will remember that their parents were loving despite having wrong ideology. My husband is like this with his family. He does not think spanking is the only or most effective way, but that it is not necessarily abusive. His parents spanked because that is what people did in the sixties, but they were generally loving and tolerant.

I sometimes feel the urge to smack the crap out of my kids, so I know where spankers are coming from. Children can be very frustrating, and it is easy to assure yourself that your instincts cannot be wrong. I give myself a mommy time-out and my kids know that I am taking these because I need to calm down. It shows them that I am mature enough to remove myself from a situation before I lose control, and that they are worth my effort.

[StarrieEyedKat]

I just wanted to do a drive by and let it be known that FJ is solely responsible for making me do a 180 on my spanking stance. I was raised and am surrounded by a family that believes in the butt swatting thing, so it was came as a natural discipline technique when I had kids. A year or so "hanging out" with you guys has made me see the error in that, and I'd like to thank each and every one of you for being so passionate about pointing out how wrong it is to hit children. Internet debates and opinions CAN change minds, I'm proof of that.

While I don't categorize it as abuse (because here, legally, it's not) I think it's a piss poor parenting choice and does more harm than good.

And to whoever's child was "saved by spanking." Please, if that had been my kid, he would have run away to keep from getting hit, and he'd have ended up dead. But who knows, maybe I was doing it wrong. :roll:

[CynicMom]

I have seen children removed from Little Gym parties on a regular basis by the worker (facilitator?). They say something like "I'm sorry you're choosing to run around and scream instead of play with us. You can go over to your Mommy now and rejoin us as soon as you feel ready to participate." Said in a combination firm/upbeat tone. The kids go to their parents and don't even seem upset. This also alerts the parent to what's going on.

[theologygeek]

So, if you see someone at WalMart/Target/Where ever/the park/whatever all organic store......and they are striking their child, do you intervene? DO you tell them to stop? .

I have. I don't call the police, but I do say something. Not nice. Okay, hostile.

[theologygeek]

HOw about supporting and teaching others? Kindness goes a long way.

Kind of like the prolifers that are against abortion and contraception, but don't foster children. Don't help provide resources for parents. Rant and rave all day long, but do something constructive and it goes a lot further.

I have no problem teaching. I gave suggestions to someone in this thread. But if I see it in person, I will say something to the one who is hitting, the same way I would say something to a man if I saw him hitting a woman. That is not the time to teach and guide. It is the time to make it stop.

[Mama Mia]

I don't think an occasional swat is abusive, I just don't think it's been shown to be very effective at teaching the lessons you DO want, and instead teaches some lessons you DON'T want.

I think swatting tends to teach kids to only behave if someone is watching in case they get caught. It doesn't, usually, seem to help kids develop their own internal controls. Also, it seems to only work when the parent is around - so at parties or school the kids who are smacked are often the ones who don't behave as well when they get wound up or angry.

It does, often, teach kids that hitting is an acceptable form of control- and I think that is a very slippery slope.

I'm very glad your child that ran in front of the car is safe, I just think that it is more likely the tone of voice and the count downs that work just as well. The problem with the mild swat, in my opinion, is that if you are doing it gently enough not to hurt - then what is the deterrent factor ? And if you are doing it hard enough to cause pain - well you are getting into that dangerous territory where you will have to keep upping the ante.

I, personally, don't think it is any more "cruel" than taking away a longed for toy, or grounding for a length of time - I just think it doesn't work as well long term as other methods, and so should be avoided. There probably are some children who would respond best to physical punishment - but these are also the types of kids who are likely to get violent /physical in response to being overwhelmed, and you don't want to model increased physical aggression with them.

I have talked to people in public places if they are freaking out or getting physical with their children - but I am usually going to say something like -"Hey, I know it can be really tough when the store puts all this candy at eye sight ! Do you need some help ?" Or, if they are seeming completely out-of-control ( the parent, not the kid ) I'll go all Social Workery and tell them I'm a mandated reporter and not to hit their kid. The problem with confrontation is you can escalate the situation. If what they are doing is legal, you need to be careful not to just make them more angry, because they will just take it out on the child.

I understand the small space/ toddler problem - it really can make things much tougher, and I don't think you are being lazy at all- just in the long run, particularly in a small space, you are going to want to find other ways to address basics like the lamp safety/outlets etc ... because you have to sleep sometime !

[EmmieJ]

My question for those here who believe that spanking their children is okay and an effective method for obtaining the behaviors you want from your children, is this: How long will you spank? Specifically, do you see yourself continuing to hit your child for years to come? What if your effective method isn't really very effective and your child keeps behaving in ways that frustrate you to the point you believe it necessary to hit them until they "behave"? What if this continue until they are age 10, 12, 14 and older? What happens when what you perceive as a mild swat doesn't cut it anymore? Will you then believe it's okay to use an implement to obtain the behavior your desire, such as a spoon, ruler, belt, etc?

As to having a young child who might be inclined to run away from me without thinking of the consequences -- all I can say is I'm so glad to have survived those days. My son has always been full of energy and eager to explore. Mostly, I just kept a firm hold of his hand, or had him on my hip when going through parking lots, approaching a street, etc. As I mentioned in another post, he did once get away from me and nearly run into a busy street. I was panicked and I did give him a swat on his behind. Not my finest moment, and I regretted it the instant it happened. Instead of putting the responsibility onto my toddler to not run into a dangerous situation, I redoubled my efforts to take precautions while at the same time telling him "no! you must stay with mommy when we are outside." He got the message.

[apple1]

cerm DOT info/bible_studies/Topical/spanking

That "cerm" website is not even someone's sermons or "Bible studies".

It belongs to a guy name J o h n W ol f (please don't spell it out correctly; he will be here) who is a nutcase of nutcases. On another board I sometimes have read, even the more extreme fundamentalists think he is a nutcase whenever he shows up there. He is probably an emotionally disabled person who has a computer in his mama's basement. Really.

(Somebody should edit to break that link).

[formergothardite]

I am more about doing something to help whatever cause I strongly believe in. Do something to help.

Now, I have to help myself by going to bed. :)

I am doing something, I am speaking out against adults hitting smal children in a thread discussing it. How should we be acting, in your opinion? Are we supposed to act like it isn't hitting? Are we supposed to say that hitting children is okay sometimes?

Adults hitting children is always wrong. Just because it has been done for years doesn't make it okay. And I really wish everyone would just drop the spanking/swatting thing and call it hitting. Because that is what it is.

[debrand]

That "cerm" website is not even someone's sermons or "Bible studies".

It belongs to a guy name J o h n W ol f (please don't spell it out correctly; he will be here) who is a nutcase of nutcases. On another board I sometimes have read, even the more extreme fundamentalists think he is a nutcase whenever he shows up there. He is probably an emotionally disabled person who has a computer in his mama's basement. Really.

(Somebody should edit to break that link).

I hate to think this but 1004sr also brought up the peanut butter war so I wonder if her/his intent was to derail the thread.

[apple1]

I hate to think this but 1004sr also brought up the peanut butter war so I wonder if her/his intent was to derail the thread.

Not sure. Maybe just clueless?

[Deleted03]

Honestly it is because someone put in my face that swatting was hitting and hence abusive that I changed my opinion about it. Sometimes to change fundamental values you need to have your nose in your shit.

[1004srs]

My intent was just to say that it is more effective to do something rather than just rant on the internet to like minded people and say the rest are stupid, abusive or crazy.

I am comparing it to the pb thread because it is the same kind of thing.

If you are so set on your opinion and can't realize the similarities, then that is your problem and kind of sad imo.

Oh yeah, unless you are part of the hive think, you aren't allowed to have an opinion on these kinds of subjects. Isn't free exchange of opinion one of the things that FJ is supposed to be standing up for?

[formergothardite]

You are allowed you opinion here, nobody will stop you from stating it, but if it involves adults hitting small children, people are going to call you all it.

And I will ask again, what are the people who are against adults hitting children supposed to do in your opinion when people say that they do and that they are proud of it? What is the "correct" reaction?

[Koala]

My intent was just to say that it is more effective to do something rather than just rant on the internet to like minded people and say the rest are stupid, abusive or crazy.

1004srs: Perhaps I can help you down off your soapbox. I can't quote and link you right now to at least one thread where you state that you think Christopher Maxwell is abusive. I can probably find more if I take the time, but I can link one for certain. So you here handslapping about how we should do something "effective" instead of ranting on the internet to like minded people and saying the rest are "stupid, abusive, or crazy"? Yeah, that's not going to fly. :roll:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=700&p=13974#p13974

I think he is petty and abusive.

Now tell me, what is it you're doing to help Anna and Christopher?

Oh yeah, unless you are part of the hive think, you aren't allowed to have an opinion on these kinds of subjects. Isn't free exchange of opinion one of the things that FJ is supposed to be standing up for?

Yes, you aren't allowed to have an opinion. That's why Admin. is going in and deleting your posts. Oh wait, they're not. :think: Oh, well maybe you were deleted for expressing your opinion. But darn, they didn't do that either did they. Hmmm... :doh:

I think what you mean is that you aren't free to assert your opinion WITHOUT someone telling you it's bullshit. That's kind of what "the free exchange of opinion" is. You're welcome. :roll:

Free Jinger = a snark board. It's been said before, but it bears repeating.

[Boltingmadonna]

I see Pad Lock never came back. Funny that! My father "spanked" us. In theory it was supposed to be this famous "swat on the butt" that some people think is so harmless and endearing. In practice, as we screamed and tried to get away, he would totally lose it and go apeshit on us, hitting us wherever he could get his licks in. It started off with the flat of his hand, which was hard enough, but if he got mad enough he'd end up using his fists. My brother and I would try to run away, and my father would shove the furniture up against the wall to pin us to the wall so he could come and get us and hit us. Or we'd hide under the bed and he'd drag us out by our ankles.

He thought he was a good parent. He used to tell us, "You're lucky I only use my hands on you! My father would have taken a belt to you!" Did we learn to respect him? Well, when I was seven or eight, I told him "When I grow up, I'm going to buy a gun. And I'm going to come back when you're sleeping and KILL YOU." See, that's what he was teaching me. When all else fails, use violence. I knew he was bigger and stronger than me, so the logical solution was to get a gun. If I wanted this to stop--and I did--I was going to have to KILL DADDY.

Seriously, people, why would you ever want to do that to a child? Yes, I'm fully aware that a sweet little swat on the butt isn't the same as being slapped across the face by a full-grown man in a rage. But you're putting yourself on the same team. By joining Team Spanky, you're aiding and abetting people who believe that anything they do short of killing the kid is okay. And oops, if they do kill the kid, looks like it went too far, but hey, who's to say they weren't a caring parent with good intentions? You're indulging your desire to hit your kids at the price of other kids who get hit so hard it leaves a lasting mark--on their hearts if not their bodies.

Obviously I didn't kill my father when I grew up, because I am an adult and I make choices. I choose to stop the violence here, with me. People who spank their kids have choices too. There are lots and lots of good, safe choices for discipline, which many other people here have beautifully pointed out. With all those choices available, why would you ever choose the destructive path? I don't get it. It seems so lazy. I will also freely admit that sometimes, unspanked kids grow up spoiled and are a pain in the butt. You know what? I'll take that. If the downsides are spoiled versus dead, or filled with homicidal rage? I'll take spoiled, Alex, for 1000!

Okay, end of my morning soap box.

[Austin]

Pad Lock was a sock, and so therefore, has left the building.

[keeperrox]

Is Pad Lock's original account still active or did you ban that one, too? (I forget what the official policy is.) If s/he's still around, I would like to be able to address her/him on that account, because there is plenty to still say.

[Witsec1]

I can guarantee that your opinion isn't going to be changed based on what my

opinion of spanking is. .

And yet here you are. Trying to convince people to change their minds. On the internetz. By insulting them. And looking down on them (you are better because you help people, unlike the shrill internet harpies.)

[Witsec1]

Pad Lock was a sock, and so therefore, has left the building.

Can you let us know whose sock? And second Keeper's question - do you ban both accounts?

[Austin]

People generally make sock accounts to cause trouble, so I'm not sure how much honest interaction would be had, even if the individual was still at FJ.

Pad Lock was a sock for fascinatedbyfundies. Both accounts have been suspended.

[2xx1xy1JD]

If Pad Lock or anyone else makes the "well, what I do is NOTHING compared to the beatings I got as a kid.." line, my response is this:

1. Better than hideous abuse doesn't = good. You want to aim higher as a parent.

2. If you were raised with hideous abuse, you need to accept that you will need help with parenting, because as much as you may have hated the abuse, at a subconscious level, it is programmed into your brain to see harsh physical discipline as "normal". It is what you were used to. It is the script that will naturally be playing in your head. That means that the rational, adult part of your brain needs to take charge and actively learn new techniques. At first, it will feel weird. You will be acting against your instincts, and it may feel like you are following a script. Over time, though, you will grow into it.

I truly believe that one of the biggest impacts of spanking or positive parenting is that we role model parenting for our own children. Somehow, we all make it to adulthood and learn to use the toilet and not stick our fingers in sockets or run into the street - but some of us learned to view some situations as "needing" spanking, and some of us learned how to approach discipline in other ways.

[Witsec1]

If your boyfriend/husband made you go to bed at a certain time, forbade you from eating cake for dinner every night, and made all medical decisions on your behalf, it would be considered controlling and abusive. Right now it's being hotly debated whether it's right to allow birth control to be nixed because that would be control over adult women. Why is it different when a parent does it? When a parent decides dinner with no say for the kids, or decides what they will wear, when they will go to bed, where they will go to school, what chores they have, even every last medical decision?

.....

Lots of people are in the situation of caring for partners that need those types of decisions made for them. They need someone to make all medical decisions for them, tell them when to go bed, and keep them from eating cake for every meal. Is it OK to smack adults with dementia? Or I should say, how hard is it OK to smack them? Are light swats OK?

[formergothardite]

I guess whoever it was who called Pad a troll was spot on!

And I wonder if Elle and the other posters who hit their children will come back to this thread.