NON-fundy parents how would you handle this

[Elle]

http://family.jrank.org/pages/1624/Span ... pline.html

That brings up an important point. "many of the studies have asked questions about harsh physical discipline and not the occasional slap on the buttocks"

http://health.usnews.com/health-news/fa ... anking-bad

"The debate roils academia, too. Murray Straus, a professor of sociology at the University of New Hampshire, says 110 studies have linked spanking to increased misbehavior in childhood as well as adult problems such as increased spousal abuse and depression. In February, Straus published research linking being spanked in childhood with an adult preference for sadomasochistic sex. Straus acknowledges that most of today's parents were themselves spanked as children but says that since spanking is no more effective than other discipline methods and can cause harm it's not worth the misery. Other researchers, including Diana Baumrind, a psychologist at the University of California-Berkeley, have found that children who were spanked occasionally had no more behavior problems than children who were never spanked. But Baumrind says regular reliance on physical punishment, as well as "impulsive and reactive spanking," causes harm to a child. The bottom line: Proponents of either position can come up with enough evidence to support their belief—but not enough to convince the other side."

There is a big difference between routinely and harshly spanking kids, and the occasional swat to the butt. Fundies, especially those who follow the Pearls, preemptively spank, set their kids up to fail and then spank, and spank using objects, and do it often.

And since so many like to talk about Sweden outlawing spanking, but don't back up how it's supposedly been beneficial, all data points to the opposite. Abuse as risen, and those raised after the ban are more likely to be violent. For all the screaming in America about how spanking kids always last lasting detrimental effect, what make you of how Sweden has had a rise in aggression by kids and abuse to kids?

http://humansciences.okstate.edu/facult ... eden2.html

http://humansciences.okstate.edu/facult ... weden.html

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0702/S00378.htm

http://www.nkmr.org/english/child_abuse ... sweden.htm

http://voices.yahoo.com/the-effects-no- ... tml?cat=72

I will not be changing how I raise my child. Especially to appease a group of outspoken individuals who are in the minority in this country. I have a happy, healthy child who is pretty damned good at listening these days. I love how everyone here supposedly knows how my own child will react better than I do. You know so little about me, my life, my child's life, my home life, yet you are so certain I've got an abused child who lives in fear and think it's only by luck that she stopped instead of running in front of a car and think that my home must be large enough for things like a playpen (the largest open area in my home is about 2.5ft by 2.5ft, and there isn't any way to rearrange the furniture, yes, it is a VERY tight fit, and out home is really that tiny). I love how everyone who's never even seen my child knows her better than I do. You all supposedly know for a solid fact I'm a lazy parent but have no idea how much time I spend in a day with her or know all my methods. Well I'm the one who knows her, I'm the one often praised even by strangers on my well-behaved child and even say it's easy to tell she's a loved little thing. I guarantee you if you could observe us for a day, you'd sing a different tune about me being "abusive."

[debrand]

go to jail because there was a lack of it.

I read somewhere that the opposite is true. Most inmates were physically punished as children. However, I might be wrong. It seems to me that there was a study about this but I can't remember where I read it.

Besides, most people who don't use spanking, do use other forms of discipline. Discipline does not have to only mean hitting your child.

Call me abusive all you want. My child is alive and giggling like crazy snuggled next to me while watching a kid's show on her iPad. I'm not planning a funeral, my child isn't afraid to be creative, is independent but knows no means no, and she is happy and knows she's loved. I'm doing something RIGHT.

I sometimes only skim posts. Has anyone called you abusive?

I am glad that your daughter is okay. That must have frightened you badly.

[tingeofginge]

The fact is, by using violence you are taking a big risk. You have the old "it can't happen to me" mentality with regard to spanking negatively affecting your child. Why take the risk if you can parent effectively without it? If you weren't a lazy parent, you would find an alternative that didn't include hitting your kid. Because as adults, we all know that hitting is wrong (after all, I assume you don't allow your daughter to hit).

[valsa]

I sometimes only skim posts. Has anyone called you abusive?

I haven't in this thread but I believe I did in another thread.

[Koala]

I haven't in this thread but I believe I did in another thread.

I'll be happy to second you. If you are hitting a small child (or any child) you are being violent and abusive. I have no qualms at all about saying it either.

[formergothardite]

I think the fact that the people here who hit their small children try and call it something else and most of the time even deny that it is hitting shows that somewhere in their soul they know what they are doing is wrong. It is like if they can just call it something else they can delude themselves into thinking that they aren't really hitting small children.

[1004srs]

and I believe that cramming your ideas down someone's throat is abusive. Refusing to listen to any of their thought processes. Believing your way is the only way and everyone else will go to hell.

Kind of sounds like the pro-life people, the right wing Christians, etc..... Their way is the only way.

[Deleted03]

and I believe that cramming your ideas down someone's throat is abusive. Refusing to listen to any of their thought processes. Believing your way is the only way and everyone else will go to hell.

Kind of sounds like the pro-life people, the right wing Christians, etc..... Their way is the only way.

we're too far from Elle to do cram anything in her throat!

Well if you want to put us together with those people who think the only way in society is to protect all individuals from being hit, then please do so.

No one has called people who hit a few times in desperation evil, but it does not mean that in that grey area we should not remind them that it has to stop someway and provide them with a variety of ways (no single my way is THE way) to do so.

Yes it hurts to think we are abusers, but hitting a child is wrong, and defending hitting a child is even wronger. No problem with people that come up and say, I lost it those 2-3 times and I've felt bad afterwards, and since then I'm trying hard not to repeat it. Problem is when people looks for rationale of hitting a defenseless human beings who happens to share their DNA and/or roof.

[tingeofginge]

and I believe that cramming your ideas down someone's throat is abusive. Refusing to listen to any of their thought processes. Believing your way is the only way and everyone else will go to hell.

Kind of sounds like the pro-life people, the right wing Christians, etc..... Their way is the only way.

Being anti-violence is not taking anything away from anyone. Quite the contrary; it is attempting to restore a sense of peace and security in the lives of all children in order to allow them to grow into emotionally healthy adults. Pro-life, right wing christians, etc. want to take away rights from others and promote legislation that is drawn from biblical fuckery.

[1004srs]

and I think that shoving your ideas about swatting a child down someone else's throat is no different than the pro-life crazies.

I think it is abusive to absolutely refuse to listen to someone else's thoughts and is no better than Steve Maxwell or the other fundies that are snarked on here.

[1004srs]

http://healthland.time.com/2011/06/28/w ... your-kids/

interesting...

[tingeofginge]

and I think that shoving your ideas about swatting a child down someone else's throat is no different than the pro-life crazies.

I think it is abusive to absolutely refuse to listen to someone else's thoughts and is no better than Steve Maxwell or the other fundies that are snarked on here.

Oh for fucks sake. Repeatedly telling someone that hitting their child is wrong is just a little different than telling someone they have no right to make their own decisions about what happens to their body. Damn all the close-minded people who are intolerant of violence against children. :roll:

[Deleted03]

Oh for fucks sake. Repeatedly telling someone that hitting their child is wrong is just a little different than telling someone they have no right to make their own decisions about what happens to their body. Damn all the close-minded people who are intolerant of violence against children. :roll:

Seriously it should be socially frowned upon to be intolerant of violence against children :D

[debrand]

http://healthland.time.com/2011/06/28/would-you-record-yourself-spanking-your-kids/

interesting...

What are you trying to show us with this article? I read it and it certainly isnt' prospanking.

Moms and dads who spank do so because they believe it’s effective, and research actually shows that it is — in the short-term. A child reaching for a tempting object will stop if he gets swatted. “It does work in the immediate moment, but beyond that, in most cases, it’s very ineffective,†says Holden. “The most common long-term consequence is that children learn to use aggression

Read more: http://healthland.time.com/2011/06/28/w ... z1oIQwNwHn

This seems to be the opposite of what you are saying. Did you mean to link to a different study?

[formergothardite]

Why should we listen to thoughts on hitting small children? And why won't any of you stop using words like "swatting" and just use hit? That's what you are doing, right, hitting a small child?

[theologygeek]

and I believe that cramming your ideas down someone's throat is abusive. Refusing to listen to any of their thought processes. Believing your way is the only way and everyone else will go to hell.

Kind of sounds like the pro-life people, the right wing Christians, etc..... Their way is the only way.

Yeah. You gotta watch out for those people who want to protect children from bullies. bully: a blustering, quarrelsome, overbearing person who habitually badgers and intimidates smaller or weaker people.

Oh look, it's a spanker.

[formergothardite]

You know, people always pull out the "Oh my God you are just like the fundies." whenever posters stand up against things like hitting children or women's rights. Sometimes there really is only one right way and when it comes to adults hitting small children, it is always wrong.

And yes, I actually have hit my small child and it was wrong. It was a very bad parenting moment and nothing I am proud of and I'm not going to act like it wasn't something other than hitting my toddler on the hand.

[Koala]

EVERY form of discipline or punishment can be taken to a point of abuse.

This is true, however, hitting is ALWAYS abuse.

I have a friend right now who genuinely believes that doing anything other than keeping your kids out of the road when a car is coming or running with scissors or playing with fire is abuse. She genuinely believes that redirecting is abuse because she says kids need to be allowed to explore anything they're interested in. They need to be allowed to express themselves, even if it means drawing on the wall with some markers they found. She thinks positive reinforcement is all a kid needs. She praises when her kids do what she would like them to, but there is no reason to not do things like push over the TV to see what will happen. She thinks it is disrespectful of a child's possessions, and therefore the child, to withhold their own possessions. She thinks it's disrespectful of their bodily autonomy to enforce meals that are healthy. She thinks it is extremely harmful to make them go to school. She thinks it's disrespectful to their freedom of movement to ground them. She had a couple of unschooled, obese, disrespectful little brats because she truly truly truly believes that any discipline at all is abuse, and she constantly tries to convince everyone to give up on everything and stop "abusing" their kids.

Ask your "friend" to site peer viewed studies backing up her claims. The ladies here have come nowhere close to suggesting anything remotely similar to what your friend said. We have sited studies and recommendations by the American Academy of Pediatrics. Coming up with some bizarre story about your "friend" doesn't disqualify that.

No matter what you do, someone will think you're abusing your kids.

And if you're hitting your child you actually are.

where my friend is likely to go wrong is her kids have no boundaries, so I fear they won't respect the law. A child shouldn't have to go to therapy to get over how they were disciplined as kids and to learn how to be independent, capable adults who can take care of themselves, or go to jail because there was a lack of it.

They may be the case for your "friend", but that's not the case for all non spankers. Not hitting doesn't = no boundaries and not hitting certainly doesn't = jail. If you think it does, then please site the study that says the majority of prison inmates were raised in non spanking homes.

She's not capable yet of understanding reasoning, and redirecting her does no good.

Yes, but you are capable of reasoning. If she is in a dangerous situation it is your job to protect her - not hit her so she protects herself out of fear of being hit.

If you don't believe she has any reasoning capabilities and you don't believe redirecting works either, how many times a day do you end up hitting her?

If she wants to play with something, say a lamp, that she shouldn't, taking her away and giving her crayons and paper doesn't to jack since she can still see the lamp. We live in a studio, so don't have the luxury of hiding the lamp or closing a door. She will keep trying to do what she wants to do. She is too young to understand reasoning. "Play with the lamp and knock it over and you can break it or cause a fire" is a bunch own mumbo-jumbo at her age. But she can understand cause and effect. Play with the lamp after mommy said no three times (she can count to three), and there's going to be a swat.

All this tells me is that you are a lazy parent. You must redirect her - every time. It will get old, but that's part of being a parent. If she's old enough to reason that if she plays with the lamp mommy will hit her, she is old enough to reason that if she plays with the lamp mommy will pick her up and move her onto something else. You hit because it's easy.

It saved her life just yesterday. We were leaving the grocery store, and I had a big bag in one arm and was holding her hand with the other. She broke away and tore to the parking lot with an oncoming SUV. I sternly said her name, skipping the first two warnings, followed by STOP, and she stopped IMMEDIATELY, and hardly a moment too soon. If she had gone i just a few more steps, she would have been hit and probably killed. That SUV was speeding and wouldn't have had time to stop. BECAUSE she learned that continuing after that stern voice means she will get a swat, she stopped. MY CHILD IS ALIVE BECAUSE SHE LEARNED CAUSE AND EFFECT BY BEING SPANKED.

You have no proof whatsoever that she stopped out of fear of being hit. I am a non-hitter and I can assure you my children are alive and well. Of course I either carried them or put them in a stroller when they were little and we were in parking lots.

I hope to all that's holy that you aren't depending on your hitting to work every time. Next time it might not work. Your best bet is to find a way to make damn sure she can't get away from you in a parking lot.

[Koala]

I have an errand to run, so I've only glanced over the first link and I didn't have time to read all of that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that a link to sermon notes or the like? Because the last I checked, sermon notes does not a study make.

Could you address this please? I just want to be clear on whether that's an actual study or a link to sermon notes.

[Conuly]

She is too young to understand reasoning. "Play with the lamp and knock it over and you can break it or cause a fire" is a bunch own mumbo-jumbo at her age.

It's mumbo-jumbo at any age. What a poorly constructed sentence! How about "Come over here. You can knock over these blocks" instead?

Remember, when children are learning language it's very hard for them to grasp negatives! They picture doing whatever-it-is first, and the thought is as good as the deed. Whenever possible, tell them what they CAN do rather than telling them what they can NOT do. Back up every single instruction. If you tell her to "come here" and she doesn't, go over and pick her up. If you're telling her "Leave the lamp alone", say it while physically turning her body away from the lamp. If it's a high-interest object, block it off or remove it until she gets interested in something else.

[1004srs]

It was meant to be interesting reading. Nothing else.

I am NOT pro spanking. However, I think we take things to the extreme when trying to share opinions.

If my child takes a PB sandwich to school because he's veggie, he's trying to kill your preshie. That kind of crap.....

[Wolfie]

This is so key.

One of the things I learned early on in teaching was that I didn't spell out consequences for the class in general.

Because Janey's consequences were different than Jimmy's consequences. And li'l Dilbert was sitting there weighing the cost/benefit of the action and it's consequences (so if I told him that a spitball cost him detention, he could debate how much 'street cred' was worth one detention...)

(I may spell out Jimmy's consequences to Jimmy and Jimmy's parents. But not to the class on the whole)

Gotta love those kids who want to be out of there so they act up. I have an unusual position where I often get students over several years between elementary and middle school. And even then their consequences might change. (not to mention that a child who was difficult two years ago, is great this year....)

None of that is, however, the same way I'd respond in a public setting where I"m the worker but the authority/parents are present.

That's when I say to the kid "Kid, please take me to your adult, now" (said sternly but not harshly). Kid goes w/ you to adult, you try not to 'shame' anyone and explain the behavior is unacceptable--the appropriate person now has the info to deal w/ it. Any further issues are with the PARENT for not running interference.

I ran into a couple times where the parent started screaming and yelling at me when I took a child back to them who was acting up when I worked in retail. There really needs to be a policy so that the manager backs you up, and you protect your staff, your other customers and the children who are acting up in the first place.

[Wolfie]

If my child takes a PB sandwich to school because he's veggie, he's trying to kill your preshie. That kind of crap.....

Let's not even go there- Last time we did, most of us were defending the parents of the kids with allergies, not anything about any of our own kids. While I teach in a school with peanut allergy kids, there isn't a ban except in a few classes. If I had a peanut allergic kid in my class, I'd figure out a different meal than the occasional peanut butter containing one that take. (today was peanut butter and jelly- I have easy access to different nut/seed butters, no problem. And for my celery sticks, hummus is just as good as peanut butter, I just have to plan ahead more since it's not as shelf stable.)

[formergothardite]

Meh, when it comes to speaking out against hitting small children, I'm okay with going to the extreme.

[Koala]

I am NOT pro spanking. However, I think we take things to the extreme when trying to share opinions.

Yeah...I'm like that. You start talking about an adult hitting a child and I just get all "extreme". *sigh* It's my downfall. I guess we should all try to be more tolerant of child hitters.