NON-fundy parents how would you handle this

[Boltingmadonna]

I don't understand this stuff about hot stoves and busy roads. Those are the examples that always, always come up to justify spanking. But it doesn't make any sense to claim that spanking is going to give young kids the insight and maturity to stay out of danger. There's only one way to keep kids safe around dangerous things: stay close to them and don't let them go into danger. You can spank them as much as you want, but in the stress of the moment, they'll forget what you think you taught them. Because they're children and they don't understand.

What kind of crappy parents would leave the swimming pool unfenced and let their toddler play there because hey, they blanket-trained him and spanked him within an inch of his life, so he "knows" not to go in the water? No amount of spanking will keep kids safe. That's YOUR job. If you're going near a busy street, make sure you have control of your kids so they can't run away. I would think that spanking only makes a child more likely to run away from you, because they know you're coming to spank them. Sometimes you just have to change your routine until your little runner grows out of that stage. Kids develop at their own rate. You can't force maturity by punishment. I just bolded that because I think a lot of parents don't understand that growing up is a physical process and you can't make a kid grow up by beating them.

[Conuly]

What kind of crappy parents would leave the swimming pool unfenced and let their toddler play there because hey, they blanket-trained him and spanked him within an inch of his life, so he "knows" not to go in the water?

I believe the Pearls would. Didn't they nearly push one of their kids into the pond so they could make the point that going into the water is scary?

With that said, even with a very diligent parent, accidents can happen. (And the more children you have, the harder it is to maintain that level of vigilance. That's one reason many people space their children - you DON'T have to watch a 5 year old as closely as a 3 year old, or a 10 year old as closely as a 7 year old.)

Some people are hoping that fierce discipline will mean that the ONE time their child slips their hand crossing the street or gets misplaced near a lake, it won't matter because they'll be scared of what Mom and Dad will do. Others, while generally anti-spanking, are so terrified of the prospect that they don't want to take any chances.

These feelings and sentiments are not wrong, and if it were true that spanking really really worked for these things, well, two or three spankings over the entire course of a childhood probably won't have devastating effects. No, really.

However, there's no evidence that spanking works any better than other methods, not for these scary situations or for other, less-scary situations.

[Deleted03]

Not Debrand, but both my husband and I were hit by our parents. Because they have never shown remorse for the behavior, they have never been left alone with our children. These are otherwise good people, and they are respectful (even admire) our choice to never hit. They don't, however, see the wrong in what they did, and because of that I can't trust that in an extreme situation they might not resort to it again. It's unfortunate, but I don't take chances where my children are concerned.

how do they deal with it? do they accept it?

[Witsec7]

This is a topic I'll always return to even after a confrontational poster does the flounce. 27 years ago my life was split between two worlds, suit and briefcase, and crunchy granola Mommy for the home scene. At the time Sears was the only alternative to Spock. I'd had child development and behavior classes in college and as my DDs father and I discussed parenting, we were in agreement. Interactive parenting, taking into consideration the child cognitive and physical development, reading the childs 'moods', giving her words that she could choose to expresses her feelings and desires. I was concerned because my parents beat my happy, joyous, free and creative child so effectively I had little or no contact with her. I did recognize that fact and had a partner who really helped me connect with her. It only helped me to become a more empathetic and effective parent. Theres more but I think you get the gist.

After our separation and divorce we both held a commitment to our child. The divorce was adult business, the child wasn't engaged in our process. Like most divorces, there was pain and anger and frustration and a lot of other fluid emotions. Neither of us imposed the divorce process or our feeling about it on our child. It was tough, and it took a whole village for each of us to have support during this process. But our parenting goals did not change, although our relationship did.

Patrick has a lot of issues with his partner, and his own childhood that are standing in his way to becoming a more gentle and effective parent without resorting to physical violence or delivering mixed messages to a confused and frustrated toddler.

I have a lot of respect for the parents on this thread who think and not hit.

getting down from soap box and slinking into the old lady corner

[Sola]

I believe the Pearls would. Didn't they nearly push one of their kids into the pond so they could make the point that going into the water is scary?

With that said, even with a very diligent parent, accidents can happen. (And the more children you have, the harder it is to maintain that level of vigilance. That's one reason many people space their children - you DON'T have to watch a 5 year old as closely as a 3 year old, or a 10 year old as closely as a 7 year old.)

Some people are hoping that fierce discipline will mean that the ONE time their child slips their hand crossing the street or gets misplaced near a lake, it won't matter because they'll be scared of what Mom and Dad will do. Others, while generally anti-spanking, are so terrified of the prospect that they don't want to take any chances.

These feelings and sentiments are not wrong, and if it were true that spanking really really worked for these things, well, two or three spankings over the entire course of a childhood probably won't have devastating effects. No, really.

However, there's no evidence that spanking works any better than other methods, not for these scary situations or for other, less-scary situations.

There was no nearly about it. The Pearls DID push one of their children into a pond. AND they didn't retrieve them for a few seconds so the child could experience the fear.

[Conuly]

There was no nearly about it. The Pearls DID push one of their children into a pond. AND they didn't retrieve them for a few seconds so the child could experience the fear.

That's even more fucked up than I thought! I think I could've happily gone my whole life confused about this issue, thanks.

Those poor kids.

[Austin]

I agree with the others and have had to remove my kiddlets from fun things but they learn very quickly to never do it again.

I agree. Most children, barring extenuating circumstances, will respond very well if the expectation is made clear before they go the party (or restaurant or whatever), and if they get out of bounds, I think one warning, such as "I see you are beginning to act up a bit; we will have to leave, as I told you earlier, if you don't settle down". If the child doesn't settle down, I would suggest calmly and without much emotion, saying, "Okay, time to go", and gathering up the child and his/her things quickly and leaving. No more dicussion, no argument, just leave, and then say, upon reaching home, "Please remember that when I tell you something, that's the way it will be. Next time I hope things work out better for you."

And be done with it.

[Koala]

how do they deal with it? do they accept it?

They have no choice but to accept it. We are the parents and we make the rules. We do see both sets of grandparents often as a family.

I can't really say how they deal with it, because I don't know. I haven't asked and I'm not particularly interested. As far as I'm concerned it's the natural consequence of their actions when my husband and I were children.

[Turtle]

For the OP, I'd give my kid a warning, let him know we will be leaving if it happens again, and follow through. I have found that it works best if we talk about expectations any time we go anywhere. Even though it seems ridiculously repetitive, I notice a difference when I'm distracted and don't do it. I try to be specific when I give him a warning. For example, you pushed Suzie and it hurt her. If you push again we have to leave. It's not nice to hurt our friends, ect. I also try to figure out why he's acting out (is he having trouble sharing something, wants more attention, ect) and resolve that situation.

As for running off, I've explained the dangers of running off many times. I think kids are more likely to comply when they know why. Before they are old enough to understand, they should be held, in a sling or stoller.

I've also found that positive reinforcement and attention really helps. I try to compliment other kids too. We recently went to a wedding, and my son (3 years) sat quietly through the whole thing (full Catholic mass!). An older woman came up to him after and told him that he did such a great job sitting still. I liked that she complimented him directly (rather than telling me, which most people do) and he was so proud of himself.

[Mama Mia]

I agree that with a neuro-typical child warnings and explanations and potentially leaving would have a big impact. I'm not sure with a 4 year old, that seems a little young to be able to hold that in their mind for the next time.

The problem is with children with ADHD ( or other similar impulse issues ). Although I was never a hitter, I think for my extremely hyperactive 4 year old a swat may have been kinder than constantly having to leave parties. He just did not have the ability to control his impulses and energy to an extent that made events like this manageable most of the time. It was so incredibly hurtful for him to always be the kid who either didn't get invited, or had to leave early. I tried all the various techniques and tools to minimize the probability of out-of-control behavior - but with limited success.

I don't know if a swat would have been effective in any case - and I didn't believe in it so I didn't do it. Looking back, if I was completely sure that a small swat would have made him stop and change his behavior for the duration of the party it might have been worth it.

Because being "that kid" who always misses out / acts out / stands out is really, really tough and has long lasting negative impact as well.

As far as the 'running into the street' argument - I've never really understood that.

If you have the type of kid who rarely bolts and you smack them because they ran and they remember to never do it again - they would probably not bolt again anyway once they saw how scared you were.

If you have the other type of kid - who runs off at every opportunity no matter your best efforts - they aren't going to respond to a smack long term, or remember/care why you did it.

[Elle]

In a situation like that, two warnings and we leave, if the child is my kid. If the child is someone else's and I'm hosting the party, I'd ask the parent to take the kid outside. If the kid wasn't a member of my party, I'd speak up still.

I had to chastise a stupid "parent" at McDonald's one day when his son was pushing other kids down and finally pushed my toddler off a slide and told her she wasn't allowed to play there. I told the boy firmly that he has to SHARE the play area and she has just as much right to be there. The dad got onto me for telling his son what to do, and I told him someone had to tell his son not to hit and push and he wasn't doing it. I got the manager, who made them leave.

If someone else's kids are endangering my own, I have every right to say something. If anyone's kids endanger someone else's, those parents have the right to step in in the misbehaving kid's own parents don't, then you've got the right to protect your child, and that shouldn't mean you're the one leaving.

[J-Watcher]

I see nothing wrong with a swift swat for little kids who are hitting/kicking/pushing or otherwise causing physical danger to themselves or others. Many young children, especially boys, just can't process verbal reasoning, nor remember verbal explanations or other demonstrations of what behavior is/isn't acceptable. Their minds are still operating on the level of a hyperactive puppy, and the same sort of discipline works best. I'm not saying don't try reasoning/demonstrating first, because sooner or later they'll develop to where that will work and that's obviously the goal, but pretending a young child is able to learn by explanation and demonstration when they keep showing that they haven't developed that ability yet is just pointless.

Give a puppy a little swat on the nose for biting and it'll learn very quickly to stop -- not by a reasoning process, but by a psychological conditioning process. Give a young child a quick swat, or a quick yank away, accompanied by a loud NO!, and the child will quickly learn not to repeat the behavior, in many cases a long, long time before the child develops the ability to learn proper behavior through explanations or "time outs". Obviously there's also a place for the approach of removing the child from situations s/he can't handle appropriately, but repeatedly removing a young child from situations that are designed for young children, such as the situation the original poster described, ends up depriving the child of a lot of social development opportunities, e.g. the opportunity to learn to enjoy playing with other children instead of hitting them. If a little swat is the quickest and most effective way to modify a young child's behavior so that the child can continue with beneficial social and/or physical activity, then the swat is beneficial.

I don't think it makes any sense to confuse this type of discipline with crazy fundies beating kids black and blue for failiing to memorize Bible verses or breaking idiotic rules, and terrorizing kids with the constant threat of beatings into endless work, Bible memorizing, rule-following, robotic command-following, etc. If a parent is really concerned that administering the occasional swat to a preschooler will start the parent down the slippery slope to fundy-style child abuse, then I'd say the parent needs to get some serious counseling to deal with their own issues.

[Ruby]

We did not spank a lot but, I still feel guilty that we did at all. I don't think that my boys are better behaved then my younger daughters.

I feel the same way. I wish like crazy that I hadn't spanked my kids. I hated doing it but was thoroughly indoctrinated that it was the god-fearing thing to do. I didn't spank as often as my ex (the kids' dad) or relatives thought I should, but I hate that I did it at all.

The lessons that really seemed to stick were ones that resulted in a priviledge being taken away, or explained to them so they could understand. My older son is a rules person, so I'd explain that a behavior or whatever was wrong, because of this or that negative consequence, and this other behavior was right because of this or that positive consquence. My other boy is a feeler, so I'd explain things to him a little differently, e.g. "It hurts the kitty when you pull her tail. I know you don't want to make the kitty sad, right?" And that would be enough to get him thinking.

As far as the problem of running away, if they were too little to know better, I assumed it was my responsibility to keep a close eye (or hand) on them. When they were getting old enough to walk by the cart at the grocery store, I picked a store that gave kids helium balloons. We'd tie the string around their wrists so if they did manage to get away, I'd be able to spot a balloon bobbing over the aisle easier than hunting for a little guy row by row. My boys were 16 months apart, one with AS, the other with ADHD. Preventative measures were invaluable.

[keeperrox]

J-Watcher, have you read anything that's been linked in this thread that prove you are unequivocally incorrect that there is nothing wrong with a swift swat for little kids?

[sassyNoz47]

I remember spanking my now 18 year old son once. I was so upset I did it without thinking first.. he was 4 he picked up his 1 1/2 yr old brother just to throw him down. He broke out the babies teeth..I was rushing to find medical help and the 4 yr old just laughed I did it I did it. I was so upset I did smack his butt.. I had never hit any of my kids before I don't know what was going through my head. My cousin was with us and she said ut oh....why don't I take him for awhile (4 yr old) I said yes and she took him. After seeking help for the baby I picked up my son and explained I was sorry and mommy should of never hit him etc.. he didn't seem phased by it never cried when i did smack him but I should of never hit him period. My bad mom moment. It's never happened since, I think imo if I were to smack my daughter who is a runner that would give her the motive to even run faster.

As for throwing the kids in the water..thats what my grandparents always "claimed" they did threw thier kids in the lake to force them to learn to swim. Can't say I believe it but thats the story.

[jenny_islander]

J-Watcher, if you "give a puppy a little swat on the nose," you are in fact behaving like an adult dog that has lost control. Mama dogs control their puppies by expression and voice and sometimes by removing themselves or their puppies from a bad situation. Boss dogs that are secure in their position simply act as if it is obvious that they are the boss dog. Confidence, decisiveness, and an "oh, really?" expression are all they generally need. A wild dog that attacks other dogs is reacting to an upset in the natural order; it is not at the top, but neither is anybody else, and it is attacking other dogs that might end up at the top in order to become leader. The natural reaction of other dogs is to fight back.

See also Dr. Dobson's stupid meatheaded dominance fight with a dachsund.

[Koala]

I see nothing wrong with a swift swat for little kids who are hitting/kicking/pushing or otherwise causing physical danger to themselves or others.

So you see nothing wrong with an adult hitting a child? And you think hitting them is an effective way to teach them not to hit? And that hitting them keeps them out of physical danger???? Alrighty :roll:

Many young children, especially boys, just can't process verbal reasoning, nor remember verbal explanations or other demonstrations of what behavior is/isn't acceptable. Their minds are still operating on the level of a hyperactive puppy, and the same sort of discipline works best.

Are there studies to support this? I'm curious, because I've never seen a study that says young children (especially little boys) have the brains of puppies, are unable to process "verbal reasoning", and should be hit to deter them from undesirable behavior.

Give a puppy a little swat on the nose for biting and it'll learn very quickly to stop -- not by a reasoning process, but by a psychological conditioning process. Give a young child a quick swat, or a quick yank away, accompanied by a loud NO!, and the child will quickly learn not to repeat the behavior, in many cases a long, long time before the child develops the ability to learn proper behavior through explanations or "time outs".

Why the hell do some people compare raising a child to raising an animal? I'm sorry, but there simply is no comparison. How about this: If you can't care for a child or a puppy without resorting to violence, then you don't need either.

I would also like to see the study that shows that a child that can't comprehend a time out will be better able to understand being hit.

Obviously there's also a place for the approach of removing the child from situations s/he can't handle appropriately, but repeatedly removing a young child from situations that are designed for young children, such as the situation the original poster described, ends up depriving the child of a lot of social development opportunities, e.g. the opportunity to learn to enjoy playing with other children instead of hitting them. If a little swat is the quickest and most effective way to modify a young child's behavior so that the child can continue with beneficial social and/or physical activity, then the swat is beneficial.

Thank you. You are the first child hitter here who has at least called it what it is: Hitting. It's vile, sick, and disturbing to read, but at least your aren't lying on top of it.

I would like to see the study that says it's better to hit a child than to remove them from a situation. If a child can't comprehend being removed from a situation, why do you think hitting would work better?

I don't think it makes any sense to confuse this type of discipline with crazy fundies beating kids black and blue for failiing to memorize Bible verses or breaking idiotic rules, and terrorizing kids with the constant threat of beatings into endless work, Bible memorizing, rule-following, robotic command-following, etc. If a parent is really concerned that administering the occasional swat to a preschooler will start the parent down the slippery slope to fundy-style child abuse, then I'd say the parent needs to get some serious counseling to deal with their own issues.

You advocate hitting children - I don't. And you think I'm the one with issues?

[debrand]

I see nothing wrong with a swift swat for little kids who are hitting/kicking/pushing or otherwise causing physical danger to themselves or others. Many young children, especially boys, just can't process verbal reasoning, nor remember verbal explanations or other demonstrations of what behavior is/isn't acceptable. Their minds are still operating on the level of a hyperactive puppy, and the same sort of discipline works best.

Do you ahve children, J Watcher?

I have four children, two boys and two girls. The Op was talking about four year old boys. At that age, they can certainly reason.

Give a puppy a little swat on the nose for biting and it'll learn very quickly to stop -- not by a reasoning process, but by a psychological conditioning process.

You don't have to swat your dog. Positive discipline works.

If a parent is really concerned that administering the occasional swat to a preschooler will start the parent down the slippery slope to fundy-style child abuse, then I'd say the parent needs to get some serious counseling to deal with their own issues.

Many posters feel that hitting another person is wrong. Children are people too. It has nothing to do with fear of loosing control and becoming crazy child abusers.

[Koala]

That and many of us object to hitting children whether it leads to higher levels of abuse or not. *If* the worst you ever do is hit your child with an open hand, you have still crossed the line into violence.

[ilovetchotchkes]

I've swatted my son ONCE, and felt horrifically bad about it. I was running a fever of 101.5 with the flu, sick as a dog, coughing so hard I was dry heaving, and he was trying to do SOMETHING I don't remember what... I think he kept pulling the dog's ears, but I said "no" to him and he got mad, screamed like a Ringwraith and head-butted me in the mouth, splitting my already dry, cracked fever blistered upper and lower lips. The pain was SO intense it was like, I had this reaction and wasn't in control, and swatted his hand and said "DO NOT EVER DO THAT AGAIN". I've been extra crazy super conscious to NEVER do it ever ever again.

I can't IMAGINE taking plumbing line to him like the crazy ass Pearls. I thank G-d every day he was born to ME instead of a fundie pearl loving family. He's incredibly willful and stubborn and instead of beating or smacking him, I have to use (omg what a concept) patience and redirect and constantly internally count to ten myself because he's 2. I love his stubborn nature though because he is like a "mini me" of his daddy looks-wise and I can at least know he inherited SOMETHING from me.

I would have taken my kid and made him sit and calm the hell down in a time out. If he didn't? we'd go home. Period. I've had to take my niece for time outs in public places before. And it helps her redirect.

[J-Watcher]

I think a lot of people who grew up in fundamentalism and have rejected it, retain the inability to see anything but black and white. The real world has lots of shades of gray. Giving an unruly preschooler an occasional swat on the fanny isn't "violence", but it looks that way to someone who was forcibly trained from birth to see everything as either absolutely good or absolutely evil. As Mrs S2004 noted in her very good post, a swat may ultimately be the least painful option for some children.

[J-Watcher]

I've swatted my son ONCE, and felt horrifically bad about it. I was running a fever of 101.5 with the flu, sick as a dog, coughing so hard I was dry heaving, and he was trying to do SOMETHING I don't remember what... I think he kept pulling the dog's ears, but I said "no" to him and he got mad, screamed like a Ringwraith and head-butted me in the mouth, splitting my already dry, cracked fever blistered upper and lower lips. The pain was SO intense it was like, I had this reaction and wasn't in control, and swatted his hand and said "DO NOT EVER DO THAT AGAIN".

Did he ever pull the dog's ears again?

[keeperrox]

I think a lot of people who grew up in fundamentalism and have rejected it, retain the inability to see anything but black and white. The real world has lots of shades of gray. Giving an unruly preschooler an occasional swat on the fanny isn't "violence", but it looks that way to someone who was forcibly trained from birth to see everything as either absolutely good or absolutely evil. As Mrs S2004 noted in her very good post, a swat may ultimately be the least painful option for some children.

Nice try, but I wasn't brought up in fundamentalism, so I guess your argument fails. Both of my parents are fairly liberal, my mother a Christian, and my father agnostic. I was spanked and/or slapped on occasion, but it never occurred when I was a baby or toddler. I was only ever hit because of something I said, never because of something I did. It was wrong and I will not do it to my own children, because there are better options.

Again I ask, did you read anything that has been linked to in this thread that flat out disproves your stance?

[ilovetchotchkes]

Did he ever pull the dog's ears again?

Yeah.... sometimes. I have to tell him "gentle touches to the puppy!" and then show him how to pet the dog instead and he'll usually realize what he's doing is wrong. Like I said, I was extremely ill and not "myself" if you know what I mean.

[Turtle]

J-Watcher, that makes no sense. Why should a small child be able to understand a smack but not an explanation/time out?

Small children understand so much more than people give them credit for and babies are absolutely not trying to manipulate you. I've found that genrally people who hit their kids (fundies in particular) have little understanding of child development and it annoys me to no end.