Churches that don't allow women to be leaders.

[Arete]

The EO priest is one ROLE reserved for men in an entire church society. It is not the same as thinking women are less then men, should be seperated from men, cannot think or create on the level of men, cannot interpret or write about scripture and then teach that to men and women. Comparing it to racial discrimination or the KKK having blacks around them is just a cheap rhetorical shot.

Just as I understand that the EO way is not for everybody and that there are plenty of religious expressions or none at all that suit people better, you have to understand that not every women who is a Muslim, Orthodox Jew, EO, or Roman Catholic feels belittled because the prayer leader is a man. (And yes, I know there are now a small handful of Orthodox Jewish female rabbis, but they are a tiny minority in the orthodox world).

[formergothardite]

What would you tell a little girl in your church who wants to be a pastor and is crying because she is told that being a woman means she is never good enouh to do so? How would you explain that she isn't being treated as lesser than men and that your church is sexist?

None of the people claiming that saying women can't be pastors/priests/deacons/leaders isn't sexist or treating women as less have been able to explain how it isn't.

[emmiedahl]

The EO priest is one ROLE reserved for men in an entire church society. It is not the same as thinking women are less then men, should be seperated from men, cannot think or create on the level of men, cannot interpret or write about scripture and then teach that to men and women. Comparing it to racial discrimination or the KKK having blacks around them is just a cheap rhetorical shot.

It is the most powerful role in your church, right? So it is basically the same as saying that blacks cannot be president, while maintaining that is not racist.

Just as I understand that the EO way is not for everybody and that there are plenty of religious expressions or none at all that suit people better, you have to understand that not every women who is a Muslim, Orthodox Jew, EO, or Roman Catholic feels belittled because the prayer leader is a man. (And yes, I know there are now a small handful of Orthodox Jewish female rabbis, but they are a tiny minority in the orthodox world).

I don't think all or even most women feel belittled. But they are being belittled, nonetheless. I think those policies have little ripples throughout the community because it does send a message that women are inferior, however slightly so. It's not the way I want to raise my daughters. I refuse to raise them in a religion in which God would send them with a gift, but Man can stop them from using the gift. It's not how I see God, and it is a make-or-break thing for me when choosing religious communities.

[ShesCrafty]

The EO priest is one ROLE reserved for men in an entire church society. It is not the same as thinking women are less then men, should be seperated from men, cannot think or create on the level of men, cannot interpret or write about scripture and then teach that to men and women. Comparing it to racial discrimination or the KKK having blacks around them is just a cheap rhetorical shot.

Just as I understand that the EO way is not for everybody and that there are plenty of religious expressions or none at all that suit people better, you have to understand that not every women who is a Muslim, Orthodox Jew, EO, or Roman Catholic feels belittled because the prayer leader is a man. (And yes, I know there are now a small handful of Orthodox Jewish female rabbis, but they are a tiny minority in the orthodox world).

I'm going to do a little rewriting of your statement and you let me know what you think of it. I'll highlight the words I changed in red:

The EO priest is one ROLE reserved for whites in an entire church society. It is not the same as thinking blacks are less then whites, should be seperated from whites, cannot think or create on the level of whites, cannot interpret or write about scripture and then teach that to blacks and whites. Comparing it to gender discrimination is just a cheap rhetorical shot.

Just as I understand that the EO way is not for everybody and that there are plenty of religious expressions or none at all that suit people better, you have to understand that not every black who is a Muslim, Orthodox Jew, EO, or Roman Catholic feels belittled because the prayer leader is a white. (And yes, I know there are now a small handful of Orthodox Jewish black rabbis, but they are a tiny minority in the orthodox world).[/

Is what I just wrote acceptable to you?

[Lola]

I was raised Catholic and I disliked the Church's stance on not letting women be priests. I'm atheist now and I have see the debate over women as church leaders go on in some Protestant circles. About ten years ago, I worked with a woman whose family left the Episcopalian church because they didn't agree with women being pastors. I was pretty shocked when I heard that. Last year, my boyfriend's relatives told us about how the elders at the church refused to consider a woman applicant for an associate pastor position.

there is so many churches near me being shut down from lack of priests. There was a suggestion nuns should replace the decreasing number of priests and the bishop said NO!

[kb2]

Growing up, my family attended a Southern Baptist Church that had women as deacons and other leadership positions as well. We never had a woman head pastor, but pastors at that church tend to stay for a decade or more, so while sexism played a role in that, there haven't been many chances to revisit the situation. Southern Baptist Churches are held together by a few tenants (like dunking when you baptize and drinking grape juice with the Lord's Supper) but each individual church has freedom to choose their own stance on a lot of issues, like women in leadership positions or gay marriage or pants. Although, the Southern Baptist Convention tried to make women-not-being-head-pastors a main rule for all churches to follow a while back (2000), which is stupid, led to a lot of churches breaking away from the convention, and is simply ignored by some other churches who still want to be Southern Baptist but have women pastors. (Not that there's many.)

Anyway, at least in SBCs, the church congregation has the authority to allow women in leadership positions. So it's not like there's this Convention on high that the church has to break away from, it's the actual members of the church who are holding back their fellow women. And the no-women-pastors rule was only passed in 2000, so it's not like there's a long tradition of not allowing women to be pastors--there were lots of women becoming pastors, and then suddenly it became a "tradition" to disallow them. :roll:

[formergothardite]

What exactly is it about women that makes them not able to be a leader? Why can't they be equal to men? Anything besides those few verses?

[Lola]

What exactly is it about women that makes them not able to be a leader? Why can't they be equal to men? Anything besides those few verses?

power? control?

[formergothardite]

IMO it is because the men don't want them to have any power, but to the couple of posters here that support it and say it isn't bad, I wonder what they think.

And I find it amazing that none of the women can't be leaders people have been able to answer how they would explain this to a girl and explain how this doesn't mean she is less than a man.

[Arete]

If a little girl came up to me and asked me why she couldn't be an EO priest, I would just tell her the truth, as of right now, men become priests, women become nuns if they want to join a religious order. Why are men only priests? Because the early church defined the role that way, and we make changes slowly. After that up to the kid and her conscience.

A priest is different from a pastor. It is a cultic/ritual role that was developed along the lines of the priesthood of Aaron in the Torah/OT. To head off the next question, no, we do not take everything in the OT word for word. I'm just explaining the model they were using in developing the role. A pastor can make church policy, and EO priest cannot. Many pastors control the church's finances, an EO priest cannot. Leadership is a shared function, what is exclusive to a priest is the adminstration of certain sacraments. Only baptism can be performed by a layperson in emergency.

[Jessica]

In the LDS church women are in charge of other women and children. They can't have the priesthood or be apostles or prophets. They can't be in the bishopric or stake presidency. But they can give "talks" (otherwise known as sermons) in church or teach Sunday school with men present. So... they have more influence than, say, an Independent Fundamental Baptist woman, but they'll never have the same authority as a man.

[Arete]

I think you are forgetting that all of us who were raised in these faiths and choose to stay obviously came to the conclusion that we weren't less than men because we could not become priests. You talk about choices, well, I just made one that you wouldn't have, that's all.

[emmiedahl]

I think you are forgetting that all of us who were raised in these faiths and choose to stay obviously came to the conclusion that we weren't less than men because we could not become priests. You talk about choices, well, I just made one that you wouldn't have, that's all.

If you think it is okay that you cannot be a priest simply because you lack a penis, then you are accepting either that your church is wrong in a huge way or that you are less than a man.

[Arete]

ShesCrafty, not going to dignify that with a response.

[formergothardite]

But how would you explain that she isn't being treated as less then men? Or do you agree that this practice is sexist and treates women as less than men?

Many of the pastors in the churches I attended the pastors didn't make church policies or run the church finances, he just did sermons, baptisms, baby blessings, funerals, and the Lord's supper.

[formergothardite]

Why is it okay to discriminate against women but not okay to discriminate against black people? What is it about women that makes this okay?

[Austin]

Another one who is not going to last. :roll:

Do people read here before they post?

[formergothardite]

These type of things that aren't in your face, but still send the subtle message that women aren't as good as men are way more dangerous than the people who just state up front that women are less than men. It causes people who wouldn't normally be okay with discrimination think that it isn't that bad.

Edited to add: Genie can now no longer say we were just picking on her. :lol:

[Arete]

No, in my particular case I accept I don't want to be a priest, do not really care that all our priests are men, and don't consider it a deal breaker for me. If blacks could not be EO church members, THAT is a dealbreaker. If we were being told to be silent, stay at home and make babies, not be educated, submit to an abusive husband, THAT is a dealbreaker.

[emmiedahl]

ShesCrafty, not going to dignify that with a response.

Her comparison is fair, although I can see how you might feel upset by it.

If your church treated any other group the way they treat women, you would be against it.

[formergothardite]

No, in my particular case I accept I don't want to be a priest, do not really care that all our priests are men, and don't consider it a deal breaker for me. If blacks could not be EO church members, THAT is a dealbreaker. If we were being told to be silent, stay at home and make babies, not be educated, submit to an abusive husband, THAT is a dealbreaker.

But what would you tell a little girl in your church who DOES want to be a priest and has been told she couldn't and now feels that she is less then men because of that? Would you admit that your church does treat women as less than men?

[ShesCrafty]

I don't think it's so much that my post is unworthy of a response and more that you just can't think of a response. I understand, I would have a hard time explaining why it's okay to discriminate against women but not against African-Americans too.

ETA: If I offended anyone with my previous post, I apologize. It was not meant to offend but simply to point out that discrimination is discrimination. It doesn't matter what type it is.

[Arete]

What? You guys are picking on me? In that case, I'll remember to faint on my couch later. :P

[Witsec7]

I posted this on the other thread, but I'll repost on this one. I left the RCC due to their stance on women priests, and birth control. I disagreed at the age of 16 and got major flack. I could not 'leave' the church until I was 18 and beyond the control of my RCC parents.

When I was active in the UU we had female ministers. I've mentioned before Kate Schori is an old pal of mine, and a bunch of us had long hard conversations about women in the priesthood when she was still a scientist studying squid.

[formergothardite]

What? You guys are picking on me? In that case, I'll remember to faint on my couch later. :P

Genie felt that we were only questioning her about this subject and that we would never question anyone other members. And she was all "Why are you sooo mean to meeeeeeee!" This thread proves her wrong. Any member that doesn't support equality will get called out on it.