Churches that don't allow women to be leaders.

[luckylibrarian]

No, in my particular case I accept I don't want to be a priest, do not really care that all our priests are men, and don't consider it a deal breaker for me. If blacks could not be EO church members, THAT is a dealbreaker. If we were being told to be silent, stay at home and make babies, not be educated, submit to an abusive husband, THAT is a dealbreaker.

But, to use ShesCrafty's scenario, let's say that your church was just saying that black people couldn't have leadership roles. They were not being told to be silent, stay home, etc. - just that they can't have leadership roles. Based on what you said above, this would not be okay for you. Why then is it okay for women to be told just that?

And before you cry persecution, I'm not picking on you. I just want to understand why you think this is okay.

[Austin]

But, to use ShesCrafty's scenario, let's say that your church was just saying that black people couldn't have leadership roles. They were not being told to be silent, stay home, etc. - just that they can't have leadership roles. Based on what you said above, this would not be okay for you. Why then is it okay for women to be told just that?

And before you cry persecution, I'm not picking on you. I just want to understand why you think this is okay.

Also, in ShesCrafty's scenario, would it matter whether the black person/people "accepted" that they didn't want to be a priest?

[formergothardite]

I do wish that the people who are horrified at even a little bit of discrimination of black people but are okay with discrimination against women would explain how it is different. Do a couple of verses, babycakes and AreteJo, justify discrimination?

[skrmom]

I was raised Catholic until I was maybe 11. I always wanted to wear the pretty lacey robles the alter boys got to wear, but of course, as a girl I was not good enough.

Later, I started going to church on Wednesdays with a neighbor. We went to G.A.'s (Girls in Action) at a Baptist church. The boys were called R.A.s (ROYAL AMBASSADORS). Why were the boys ROYAL and the girls not? Much the same with the Assembly of God. The boys were Royal Rangers and the girls Missionettes.

[pomology]

I don't go to church, being Jewish, but my synagogue does allow women in leadership roles/the clergy. Our assistant rabbi is female, our student cantor is female (and we currently don't have an actual cantor) and have had women in various other leadership roles.

I could never join a synagogue where women weren't allowed to have leadership roles--one of many reasons I could never be Orthodox. On a somewhat related note, I have an Orthodox cousin who is currently sitting shiva (a week of mourning after your parent, spouse, sibling, child dies) and they made her go to her synagogue to say kaddish (the prayer that Jews in mourning say) instead of having a service at her house because men might be uncomfortable having services at her house, or something. It's such bullshit. If she was a man, they'd have had services at her house.

Thankfully, most Conservative congregations these days are egalitarian. I went to a Jewish day school growing up and looking back on it, I'm really glad that it was 100% egalitarian (at least voluntarily, not forcibly--the difference is that they allowed girls to do anything, but they didn't force them to wear kippot and bat mitzvahed girls to wear tallitot and lay tefillin) considering that the two main congregation that sent their children to my school were not egalitarian at the time. I also went to a Jewish sleepaway camp that was the same. I'm glad there was no option for bowing out of services that allowed girl/women leaders (which I've heard is the case at other Conservative Jewish day schools and camps) because I think that is also bullshit. My point is that although most girls at my elementary school went to congregations that did not allow women in leadership roles, our school still allowed/encouraged girls to take on any role that they allowed boys to take on.

[Jessica]

I think I've shared this video before. She states it better than I could (why it's not fair that men have priesthood and women don't because they have motherhood). It's specifically about the LDS church but you could apply it to others.

Why CAN'T women be bishops or apostles? When I was still going to that church I'd always hear bishops saying things like "I'm officially the bishop but my wife is the one who's REALLY in charge". I heard one guy even say once, "Do you ever wonder how someone is called to be in the bishopric? They find the kindest, most loving, gentle person. They look for someone who does all they can to be like Jesus. Someone who works hard, is organized, and loves to serve others... Then they ask her husband to be in the bishopric!" :shock: So... Why couldn't SHE be in it herself? Oh right... She's a woman. :roll:

[luckylibrarian]

Missionettes? Ugh. I totally would have wanted to be a Royal Ranger.

[Arete]

I would tell her what I told you before, it's one role in an entire community. Everyone is equal before God and being a priest doesn't give you a step up in the class. For us, you pray to men, you pray to women.

LL, my parents came from a place that had seen real persecution. It will be a cold day in hell before I cry persecution on a bb because I'm the minority opinion on a particular thread.

In our church, men and women are equal, but they have different roles in the religious orders. Equal does not mean identical in regard to ritual roles. A priest is not the only leadership role. A teacher is a leadership role, a parish council president is a leadership role, a choir director is a leadership role. A priest is the leader in the ritual role. I am not going to leave over the one leadership role I have no particular interest in. I understand it is a big deal for some people. I don't see any connection to Jim Crow or being barefoot and pregnant, sorry.

[alphaeta08]

I was raised Catholic and actually never questioned the fact that women couldn't be priests. For me, the definition of priest just = men and I didn't think any more about it. I now think it's silly, but seeing as I don't go to church anymore, it's not my problem. I currently sing in a CofE chapel choir, and I have to say it was a shock the first time we had a female guest preacher, just because I was SO not used to it. I guess I don't care what religions choose to do either way, since I'm not a huge fan of organized religion in general. If people don't care about sexism in their churches... whatever. :?

[ShesCrafty]

Also, in ShesCrafty's scenario, would it matter whether the black person/people "accepted" that they didn't want to be a priest?

This too. I'm amazed at both the delusion and the narcissism that some people exhibit. There are many things that are considered "traditional" male roles that I would absolutely hate. Examples: I would be a hideous military member, the police academy interests me not at all and the thought of trying to rebuild the engine on my car is enough to make me pop a Xanax and wash it down with some whiskey. But I'm not so self-centered as to believe that ALL women feel this way and realize many would enjoy and be good at those "traditionally male" jobs. So just because you, personally, AreteJo, do not want to be a priest, that does not mean other women do not want to. And it does not mean that it's okay for your church to tell them that they can't just because they don't have a penis.

[loveandwar]

I live in the South and go to a non-denominational church. Exactly half of the pastors on staff are female. Most of the Bible study leaders are female.

[fundiefun]

I was raised Catholic and actually never questioned the fact that women couldn't be priests. For me, the definition of priest just = men and I didn't think any more about it. I now think it's silly, but seeing as I don't go to church anymore, it's not my problem. I currently sing in a CofE chapel choir, and I have to say it was a shock the first time we had a female guest preacher, just because I was SO not used to it. I guess I don't care what religions choose to do either way, since I'm not a huge fan of organized religion in general. If people don't care about sexism in their churches... whatever. :?

I'm with you there the first time I went to a methodist church and saw that a female was leading I was really taken back. I wasn't a fan of her preaching style and I felt like I didn't connect with the methodist church and left after only a few weeks.

[ADoyle90815]

One reason I like the Episcopal church is that it really is "Catholic Lite" and they let women and gays become priests. In fact, a Facebook friend of mine is in seminary right now, as she really wants to become an Episcopalian priest. If I had been raised Catholic, I would have left that church as soon as possible. Fortunately for my brother and I, my dad hated having the Catholic church forced on him as a child, so my parents raised us without organized religion. I was also raised with the idea that I could do anything I want, even though I'm female.

One reason I didn't last long in the Mormon church was not only are women not allowed to become priests, they're not even allowed to hold their own baby in a blessing ceremony, so they have to stay in the pew and keep sweet. I actually saw a couple of those ceremonies myself when attending church with my ex-husband who is a Mormon. When my niece was baptized in the Catholic church, my SIL got to hold her during the ceremony as she was the mother.

[julie paradox]

When the Church of England was getting het up over this issue - early nineties - I remember the major point against women being priests that kept being brought up was that the priest represents Christ in the Eucharist and because Christ was a man you had to have a man.

Now, quite apart from the fact that nobody seemed bothered about Jesus being circumcised and almost certainly having a beard...

ew ew ew I'm supposed to be thinking about sex during communion?????

Inevitably the men didn't understand this response. (Well, perhaps the gay ones did, but in the CofE at the time they were keeping well below the parapet.) Most men also find it really odd when I suggest a god, specifically male as opposed to a goddess, of love/lust which always makes far more sense to me ;-)

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

FG, I'm just really busy, I'll be back during naptime.

[CC3]

I have been taught that Gal. 3:26-28 is the accurate view of how God looks at the genders and other differences. "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you were baptized into Christ, have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

Having male pastors is more from tradition than how God gifts his people. Also, in biblical times there wasn't birth control, people died younger and I don't think most women could have been afforded the time to study to enter full-time ministry plus most people were illiterate. I believe the verses where Paul was telling the women to be quiet in church stemmed from some unruly women who got into numerous petty arguments during the meetings. Paul was a Pharisee, thought it was better to never to marry, and spent a good deal of his time trying to kill the people he ended up writing his letters to. My own impression of him is that he was very Godly but also was stuck thinking of women as ceremonial unclean (menses) and I think he found women hard to understand. My husband and I both teach at our church with both men and women in our classes. It depends on the church you attend as to who can be a minister. In our church, the head minister is always a man. Women can be associate pastors, worship leaders/pastors, children's ministers. When I went to Quaker meeting, both men and women ministered. I also went to a non-denominational church for awhile that was sexist. The pastor hit on women and talked down to me, so our family left when I realized it wasn't going to change. I understand women liking a male minister because of tradition. It's comfortable for the elderly people, but eventually it will change because sexism in the ministry is based on tradition not the Bible. One more thought too, is Christians follow Christ's example first and foremost and he ministered with and to all people and many women preached and followed Him. Some are recorded in Acts.

[Rachel333]

In the LDS church women are in charge of other women and children. They can't have the priesthood or be apostles or prophets. They can't be in the bishopric or stake presidency. But they can give "talks" (otherwise known as sermons) in church or teach Sunday school with men present. So... they have more influence than, say, an Independent Fundamental Baptist woman, but they'll never have the same authority as a man.

I think LDS women actually have it better than even most non-fundie Evangelical women, which is pretty sad. The church I went to as a teenager was definitely not fundie (I remember one sermon about how birth control is great, overpopulation is real, and evolution isn't necessarily bad), but they wouldn't allow women to teach in church or lead worship or have any leadership position over men. They weren't especially upfront about it, so we were there a long time before we realized their real position. I'm not sure if it bothered my dad or not, but it definitely bothered my mom and me. Now I will never go regularly to a church that does not allow women in leadership positions.

There were quite a few liberal people who attended that church, and also quite a few fundies. I kind of liked the mix of beliefs, but I couldn't take the sexism.

[Arete]

I think I was quite clear that in terms of wanting to be a priest, I was speaking only for myself. I know some women want to be priests. You can try to change it or you can leave for another denomination or no church. What is narcissistic is to expect me to leave or trash my church because YOU think I should.

[formergothardite]

How is your church not being sexist and treating women as less? And if you don't feel like it is, how would you explain that to a little girl in your church who is upset because being a woman means she can't be a priest?

[emmiedahl]

I think I was quite clear that in terms of wanting to be a priest, I was speaking only for myself. I know some women want to be priests. You can try to change it or you can leave for another denomination or no church. What is narcissistic is to expect me to leave or trash my church because YOU think I should.

Um, drama much? No one here is asking you to leave or trash your church. We are saying it is sexist and you are saying it is not.

[formergothardite]

Is it narcisistic to expect equality?

[Witsec1]

FWIW, Aretojoy's description of the priest's role in the EO church reminds me of something Francis Schaeffer said in his book. He converted to EO because the personality of the priest is not important, he is just fulfilling a role in the ritual, which he preferred to the cult of personality in Evangelical churches.

We could start a discussion about sexism in the atheist community, that has sparked quite a number of flame wars on the internetz...

[Witsec1]

Um, drama much? No one here is asking you to leave or trash your church. We are saying it is sexist and you are saying it is not.

Yeah, how hard is it to acknowledge that all the big 3 monotheistic religions have major issues with sexism.

[formergothardite]

I don't expect people to leave their churches, but it would be nice if they would acknowledge that it is sexist. And if they can't explain how it isn't.

[Anxious Girl]

A bit off topic, but what I never understood about the Roman Catholic church is why are the priests celibate and worry so much about others' sex lives, such as a BGLT couple getting married, or heterosexual couples living together before they get married. I always thought that it was because they were deprived of sex. I think sometimes that some of them are deeply religious but want to have sex but can't do to the churches laws and take it out on unmarried couples living together and BGLT couples. I may be bias, but I have never seen Roman Catholic nuns complain about these "issues." In a tl;dr sentence, that's just MHP.