Churches that don't allow women to be leaders.

[kb2]

I would tell her what I told you before, it's one role in an entire community. Everyone is equal before God and being a priest doesn't give you a step up in the class. For us, you pray to men, you pray to women.

LL, my parents came from a place that had seen real persecution. It will be a cold day in hell before I cry persecution on a bb because I'm the minority opinion on a particular thread.

In our church, men and women are equal, but they have different roles in the religious orders. Equal does not mean identical in regard to ritual roles. A priest is not the only leadership role. A teacher is a leadership role, a parish council president is a leadership role, a choir director is a leadership role. A priest is the leader in the ritual role. I am not going to leave over the one leadership role I have no particular interest in. I understand it is a big deal for some people. I don't see any connection to Jim Crow or being barefoot and pregnant, sorry.

It is possible to think that something your church does is sexist without leaving the church.

Also, men and women have "different" but "equal" roles, and that doesn't strike you as a little Jim Crowish? Not even a little? Your best defense for what your church is doing is the same defense used for segregation.

ETA: riffle

[Anxious Girl]

It is possible to think that something your church does is sexist without leaving the church.

This. I was deeply disturbed 2 weeks ago (I hardly go to Church, but when I went I saw that I wasn't missing anything) when the priest said that as Catholics, I couldn't accept gay marriage and women having right to birth control in Catholic hospitals. I'm going to talk to him next Sunday and if he uses the Jim Crow type of excuse when I ask him if the Church will ever change and he says no, when I will try my best to fight the bigotry and misogyny in the Church or try to find a new one to join. Sorry if it sounds like I'm tooting my own horn. * :oops: *

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

And yet, churches that don't restrict the roles of women would interpret that passage completely differently. That's the problem I have with religion. Why are you so certain that your interpretation is better than someone else's? And why is it okay to tell the children in your church that girls are less than boys, that they aren't quite good enough to lead, because that is the interpretation you have chosen to believe?

I think Christians do the best they can with the interpretation of scripture. There are so many views on baptism, communion, women, the church, etc. We study the Bible and make our best effort to have correct doctrine. I understand other Christians will question my doctrine just like I question some of theirs. It stinks because the church is not supposed to be divided, but there are just important issues we can't all agree on. Maybe mine isn't right. I'll find out when I get to heaven and I can ask Paul and Moses and Jesus for myself, but until then I'm doing my best to follow God's Word.

And I know y'all hate that "equal but different" line, but there it is. I don't think girls are less than boys, and I don't think telling them they can't be a pastor says that I do.

[Eoywin]

I grew up in the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod which doesn't allow women pastors. I'm currently a member of a ELCA Lutheran church and there are women pastors. In fact, the pastor who bapatized my daughter was a woman. She has since been called to another church :(

But I grew up playing church and seriously debated about becoming a pastor. And who knows, I might become one sometime after my daughter grows up. I don't think I could ever go to a church that wouldn't allow women to have leadership roles.

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

(I'm trying to find a way to write this without sounding bitchy, but I can't. The internet is just like that I guess.)

So, you think that sexism is right?

Does your church follow all Biblical laws or just the ones that are convenient for sexist men?

How do you explain the importance of women in Christ's ministry, his admonishment NOT to stay busy with menial work, the importance of Chloe as an early church leader?

I don't think it sounds bitchy, you're actually one of my favorite FJers, I just don't agree. I don't consider myself sexist. I think it's a bit sexist to say what women do in the church is "menial work". We sexists don't see it that way, for sure. Women don't have to be pastors to be important in ministry. And nothing about Chloe suggests she lead men.

[ellerigby]

I cannot belong to a church that does not consider me to be an equal to men. I don't buy any of the "separate but equal" bullshit. Any church that doesn't allow women to have the same leadership roles as men is simply sexist- "tradition" my ass. I'm not saying "women's work" is lesser- I'm saying their shouldn't be distinction at all.

I was baptized Catholic and went to Catholic school (i grew up in a bad school district and my dad was raised loosely Catholic). I liked the robes, candles and singing, so was an altar server in elementary school.

However, in the sixth grade I asked one of my teachers why there weren't any women priests (since women were in all sorts of other leadership roles - choir director, school principal, rector, etc.). She told me that "girls" couldn't be priests, but didn't have a good answer why. I got really upset and wrote my persuasive paper/speech (a major project in the sixth grade) on why women should be priests. I still think it's the most important academic paper I ever wrote.

My teacher loved the paper, but I still got in trouble with administration and got a talking-to from the pastor about how that wasn't an appropriate paper topic at a Catholic school. It was at that time that I stopped altar serving and going to mass outside of required school-wide services (though I explored a lot of other churches with my feminist, quasi-Christian mom) and began my complete break with the Church. This was well before i knew their stance on gay marriage and contraception (among other issues I disagree with them on), and even before the pedophile priest cover-ups...

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

What would you tell a little girl in your church who wants to be a pastor and is crying because she is told that being a woman means she is never good enouh to do so? How would you explain that she isn't being treated as lesser than men and that your church is sexist?

None of the people claiming that saying women can't be pastors/priests/deacons/leaders isn't sexist or treating women as less have been able to explain how it isn't.

I just asked my twelve-year-old daughter if she thinks we (her dad and I, our friends at church) think girls are less because only men can be pastors. She said no. I asked her why, and she said because the Bible says so, and God knows what he's doing so it's no big deal to her. I know a lot of girls growing up in the church may feel differently, but not all of them.

It's not about being "good enough".

[Kelya]

I just asked my twelve-year-old daughter if she thinks we (her dad and I, our friends at church) think girls are less because only men can be pastors. She said no. I asked her why, and she said because the Bible says so, and God knows what he's doing so it's no big deal to her. I know a lot of girls growing up in the church may feel differently, but not all of them.

It's not about being "good enough".

yes, i really take the anecdote of a sexist mother raising her child to accept sexism as a valid excuse as to why sexism is okay.

eta: oh, you support ron paul! would you like to explain away racism now too?

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

What exactly is it about women that makes them not able to be a leader? Why can't they be equal to men? Anything besides those few verses?

This is what you aren't getting. The Christians who hold these views don't feel that women are beneath men, we just feel that God designed different roles for us. Asking the question over and over again isn't going to make me magically able to make you understand that.

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

IMO it is because the men don't want them to have any power, but to the couple of posters here that support it and say it isn't bad, I wonder what they think.

And I find it amazing that none of the women can't be leaders people have been able to answer how they would explain this to a girl and explain how this doesn't mean she is less than a man.

I don't think all of my Christian brothers (including my pastor or my husband) are trying to keep me powerless. I don't need to be a pastor or a co-ed class Sunday school teacher to have power anyway. And I'm not really seeking power, no Christian should be. We are all, including men, called to be humble servants. In fact, of all the peopel in general that I know, I think my husband and our pastor are the humblest of servants. Granted not all men (or women) are like that. I just mean I don't seek power, I'm not on some power trip running around all pissed off because the evil men won't let me rule.

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

I think you are forgetting that all of us who were raised in these faiths and choose to stay obviously came to the conclusion that we weren't less than men because we could not become priests. You talk about choices, well, I just made one that you wouldn't have, that's all.

QFT

[Rachel333]

I just asked my twelve-year-old daughter if she thinks we (her dad and I, our friends at church) think girls are less because only men can be pastors. She said no. I asked her why, and she said because the Bible says so, and God knows what he's doing so it's no big deal to her. I know a lot of girls growing up in the church may feel differently, but not all of them.

It's not about being "good enough".

She's 12 years old. Most 12 year olds will still say what their parents want them to say. It's not fair for her parents to ask her if she thinks her parents are wrong.

At that age I would have said the same thing, but really I was very hurt by the sexist religious doctrine I was exposed to.

[kb2]

Also, regarding sexism and racism.

Segregation was kind of a big deal that affected educational, public, private, business, governmental, and religious institutions. So when a church decided to be racist and discriminate against black people, there was a big social force backing the church up and compounding the problem.

In today's society, sexism exists, but it isn't quite the social force segregation was in the 50s. Women are allowed by law to be equals in education, business, and government, and even though our society may still discriminate, that discrimination is not protected like segregation. So when a church says that women can't hold leadership positions/can't head a church/can't preach/should submit to men, women can still legally get their education from schools and separate accounts from banks and decent jobs from secular employers.

Sexism from a church today and racism from a church during the 50s looks different because the scale of social problems is different. But excluding people is excluding people. The churches are doing the same thing in each case--telling a group of people that they can't "x" because of who they were born as. The difference isn't how moral the church is being, but how moral the rest of society is being. The only reason a church's sexism won't result in anyone being "barefoot and pregnant," is because the rest of society isn't going to sell you out the way your church is.

ETA: I started writing this almost a page ago, so if it doesn't make sense anymore to the discussion, I'm sorry.

[emmiedahl]

QFT

So if some African Americans decide that Jim Crow laws don't make them lesser, then that is okay? I just want to clarify the truth being quoted.

[icecreamycakeycake]

I just asked my twelve-year-old daughter if she thinks we (her dad and I, our friends at church) think girls are less because only men can be pastors. She said no. I asked her why, and she said because the Bible says so, and God knows what he's doing so it's no big deal to her. I know a lot of girls growing up in the church may feel differently, but not all of them.

It's not about being "good enough".

Why don't you ask her if "God knew what he was doing", when the black people were slaves? Sexism and racism are THE SAME THING. It's your choice to support sexism, and it's your choice to raise your daughter to accept inferiority for being born with a uterus.

[CC3]

I don't think all of my Christian brothers (including my pastor or my husband) are trying to keep me powerless. I don't need to be a pastor or a co-ed class Sunday school teacher to have power anyway. And I'm not really seeking power, no Christian should be. We are all, including men, called to be humble servants. In fact, of all the peopel in general that I know, I think my husband and our pastor are the humblest of servants. Granted not all men (or women) are like that. I just mean I don't seek power, I'm not on some power trip running around all pissed off because the evil men won't let me rule.

I agree with you that Christians are supposed to be servants first. The only issue I have with your viewpoint is women have the same gifts that men have. And God expects us to use them.

I had an older pastor years ago who gave me this answer when I asked him why we had no female pastors. He said men tend to be lazy about being a spiritual leader in their family and church, and if they can get their wives to lead, the men would have more time to watch sports on TV. I know he was kidding around but I think there is a tiny kernel of truth in his answer.

[ShesCrafty]

I think I was quite clear that in terms of wanting to be a priest, I was speaking only for myself. I know some women want to be priests. You can try to change it or you can leave for another denomination or no church. What is narcissistic is to expect me to leave or trash my church because YOU think I should.

I do not expect you to either leave your church or trash it. What I do expect from someone such as you who is defending discrimination is to give a valid reason for their beliefs. And if they can't do that, then to admit it. And saying "I don't want to be a priest, so it doesn't matter to me that other women can't be one" is pretty narcissistic.

[Jessica]

Most people don't want to have "all the power". They just want equal opportunity to use it. So is a man who feels called to plant churches/be pastors just trying to gain all the glory too? Were black LDS members who wanted to gain all the power?

[Rachel333]

I don't think all of my Christian brothers (including my pastor or my husband) are trying to keep me powerless. I don't need to be a pastor or a co-ed class Sunday school teacher to have power anyway. And I'm not really seeking power, no Christian should be. We are all, including men, called to be humble servants. In fact, of all the peopel in general that I know, I think my husband and our pastor are the humblest of servants. Granted not all men (or women) are like that. I just mean I don't seek power, I'm not on some power trip running around all pissed off because the evil men won't let me rule.

This is a common way of trying to disparage women who want equality. It's ignoring the problem by saying that women who want to see women in leadership are just power-hungry, often accompanied by "Leadership is a burden to men, so why do you want it?" or "I'm so humble that I would never want to be a pastor". I really hate this tactic. I have absolutely no desire for power, but I still think it's wrong that women can't be in leadership positions in churches. And it's not like women who do want to be pastors are just seeking power; all I've known of just feel called to that ministry.

[formergothardite]

I just asked my twelve-year-old daughter if she thinks we (her dad and I, our friends at church) think girls are less because only men can be pastors. She said no. I asked her why, and she said because the Bible says so, and God knows what he's doing so it's no big deal to her. I know a lot of girls growing up in the church may feel differently, but not all of them.

It's not about being "good enough".

Well what would you tell her if she had replied, yes it does make me feel like I am less then men because I am not allowed to hold one of the highest positions in the church? What would you say, if she said, I am better qualified to be a pastor than some of the males in the church, but I am not allowed just because I am a woman, why is it that I cannot considered equal to men?

[ShesCrafty]

I think Christians do the best they can with the interpretation of scripture. There are so many views on baptism, communion, women, the church, etc. We study the Bible and make our best effort to have correct doctrine. I understand other Christians will question my doctrine just like I question some of theirs. It stinks because the church is not supposed to be divided, but there are just important issues we can't all agree on. Maybe mine isn't right. I'll find out when I get to heaven and I can ask Paul and Moses and Jesus for myself, but until then I'm doing my best to follow God's Word.

And I know y'all hate that "equal but different" line, but there it is. I don't think girls are less than boys, and I don't think telling them they can't be a pastor says that I do.

Yeah, oddly enough, people do tend to hate that line. Probably because it's dangerously close to that old "separate but equal" line that was used to treat a significant portion of the population as second-class citizens for decades. And the fact that you either can't see or refuse to acknowledge the similarities between the two is disturbing.

[ellerigby]

I do not expect you to either leave your church or trash it. What I do expect from someone such as you who is defending discrimination is to give a valid reason for their beliefs. And if they can't do that, then to admit it. And saying "I don't want to be a priest, so it doesn't matter to me that other women can't be one" is pretty narcissistic.

QFT. I do not expect someone to leave their church or trash it, but I do think people should be held accountable when they support an institution that is sexist, racist, or prejudiced toward any other group (or harmful in some other way). I believe in pointing out inherent inequalities/prejudices and causing others to question their beliefs (I certainly welcome it in my own life). I don't think faith should be blind.

[formergothardite]

I don't think all of my Christian brothers (including my pastor or my husband) are trying to keep me powerless. I don't need to be a pastor or a co-ed class Sunday school teacher to have power anyway. And I'm not really seeking power, no Christian should be. We are all, including men, called to be humble servants. In fact, of all the peopel in general that I know, I think my husband and our pastor are the humblest of servants. Granted not all men (or women) are like that. I just mean I don't seek power, I'm not on some power trip running around all pissed off because the evil men won't let me rule.

Why is it that the women are pissed off on a power trip when they want to be a pastor/leader, but the men aren't. Is it okay to use a couple of Bible verses to discriminate against a group of people?

[formergothardite]

I think Christians do the best they can with the interpretation of scripture. There are so many views on baptism, communion, women, the church, etc. We study the Bible and make our best effort to have correct doctrine. I understand other Christians will question my doctrine just like I question some of theirs. It stinks because the church is not supposed to be divided, but there are just important issues we can't all agree on. Maybe mine isn't right. I'll find out when I get to heaven and I can ask Paul and Moses and Jesus for myself, but until then I'm doing my best to follow God's Word.

And I know y'all hate that "equal but different" line, but there it is. I don't think girls are less than boys, and I don't think telling them they can't be a pastor says that I do.

How exactly is it not? You are saying that they are not equal when it comes to being a pastor, correct?

[formergothardite]

You know, there was that whole book written that used the Bible and accounts of happy slaves to prove that slavery is okay. So using the logic of those who support women not being allowed to be pastors, this is okay. Hey, they had lots of biblical support and stories of slaves that WANTED to be slaves.