Churches that don't allow women to be leaders.

[Guest Anonymous]

As for women not keeping silent...that should be obvious. We all have question and ideas and should vocalize them. I have answered you're questions. And yes, you are giving a distinct vibe that anybody with a religious conviction especially one with no female leadership is a fundie. That is a very narrow-minded point of view which is exactly what you're telling me about my beliefs. I've answered you're questions. You have made your point. You think I'm a narrow-minded fundie troll. So be it.

[Rachel333]

Yes. I'm not claiming any denomination though. Fairly liberal, some Quaker leanings, and after being caught up in The Rules for so long, I'm now a spirt-of-the-law kind of a gal than a letter-of-the-law. I'm tired of that lifestyle. I'm glad to be free of the constant peer pressure and guilt-tripping. About a year ago an older lady was giving a lesson and she had some medical condition where she had to wear pants because she had to put her legs up and didn't want people seeing her underwear. She was going on and on apologizing like crazy for wearing pants because of that. I wanted to say... "LADY. You're constantly serving other people with all you've got even when you're sick. You're nice to everyone! You just radiate happiness and love. STOP APOLOGIZING!" You'd think she had stolen something or spread a rumor around the ward. She wore pants for a medical reason... the horror! Ahh, it's great to be free!

Okay, first I want to apologize for "more less commonly". Not sure what I was going for, but that wasn't it. :lol:

I'm really glad you're free from all that. That's definitely ridiculous legalism there. There's not even a rule against pants, and the LDS often get so uptight about it.

[formergothardite]

As for women not keeping silent...that should be obvious. We all have question and ideas and should vocalize them. I have answered you're questions. And yes, you are giving a distinct vibe that anybody with a religious conviction especially one with no female leadership is a fundie. That is a very narrow-minded point of view which is exactly what you're telling me about my beliefs. I've answered you're questions. You have made your point. You think I'm a narrow-minded fundie troll. So be it.

If you would take the time to search my post you will see that I do not have a problem with people who have religious convictions. I've even stated before and will do so again that if you want to have a personal conviction that you should only wear frumpers, shouldn't vote, should stay at home and let hubby do all things for you, I don't have the slightest problem with that. Not my cup of tea, but hey, it isn't my life.

My problem arises when you take personal convictions and raise all children to believe this is the only right way. If you want to have a personal conviction not to be a church leader because you are a woman, no problem. But what you are doing is supporting the idea that ALL women in your church should do this because women CAN'T be leaders only because they are women. You are not supporting equality.

And yes, there are some things I am closed minded about, equality is one of those things. There is only one answer and it is that all people should be treated equally. You are saying that women should not be given equal chance as men in your church, so yes, you are supporting patriarchy and really don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to criticizing other fundies.

[AudreyE]

As for women not keeping silent...that should be obvious. We all have question and ideas and should vocalize them. I have answered you're questions. And yes, you are giving a distinct vibe that anybody with a religious conviction especially one with no female leadership is a fundie. That is a very narrow-minded point of view which is exactly what you're telling me about my beliefs. I've answered you're questions. You have made your point. You think I'm a narrow-minded fundie troll. So be it.

I haven't seen anything that I am personally reading as, "Anyone who has Christian leanings is fundie." I *do* think churches that follow the principle of no women in leadership have dipped their toe into fundie territory. I don't know whether there is an exact definition of fundie that everyone agrees upon, but I see a fundie as someone who (among other things) believes the Bible is inerrant, so we have to do everything it says (except the parts we pretend aren't there or make excuses about, because we really don't like them).

As you can see from my post above, some of the key passages used to defend this practice are WIDELY known to be dishonest. In fact, even a fundie preacher who has been educated at a main stream college will know this. Nevertheless, the practice of excluding women is often attributed to these passages, as if they are straight from the mouth of almighty Paul. (Of course, that may just be an excuse to deflect criticism of a patriarchal practice that would be going on with or without Paul's blessing.)

Again, this is just based on my own prejudices. I'm just being honest that I see excluding women from leadership as a fundie practice.

[Guest Anonymous]

Message received. I'm a patriarchal loving fundie troll.

[Arete]

FS, the eastern orthodox church DOES use the verses regarding the Aaronic priesthood to model the role of the priest. It's taught in our seminaries, so you'll have to take up the theological problems with them. I am giving you accurate information in regard to how the theology of the orthodox priesthood developed.

formergothadite, I explained how the eastern orthodox church developed the male priesthood. You can beat the drum of how dare they take this or that bible verse to have male only priests, when we all know that churches from the most liberal to the most conservative make selective use of the bible. As for what I issues I choose or don't choose to personally lead a fight over in church, that's between me, my conscience, and God. When I start going into the secular world and saying or voting that women shouldn't be President because my church has only male priests, then you can worry.

[Guest Anonymous]

When I start going into the secular world and saying or voting that women shouldn't be President because my church has only male priests, then you can worry.

[valsa]

Message received. I'm a patriarchal loving fundie troll.

You're also using a breed of cat in your icon that is far, far too awesome to be associated with a loser like you.

[dawbs]

This is a bit of a tangent, but the sexism in the church is what will probably drive me away from any organized religious whatsoever. If the failure to find a church continues long term, I can see it driving me from all religious conviction.

I don't want to be a pastor. And i"m currently looking for a new church because of the sexism within mine (that I thought I could change from within but, long and short is, I don't have the strength to do it).

But, I work in education--and with all due humility thrown out the window for a moment, my strongest "gifts" involve teaching and public speaking. (note, if any FJers have a time machine, please, let me go back and tell awkward, geeky, 16 YO me that I would successfully give speeches as part of what I did for a living and that my (former) dream job involved presentations to 500+ people at a time. Please, I could make teenage me faint and burble incoherently, I"m sure)

Knowing that when and if I"m called to use those gifts in church for God and for good, I'm forbidden from doing so...well, that's enough to make me reasonably sure that God is not in what is being said. And if he's not there for these 'little' things, I"m less sure he's there for these big things. The fact that my husband, who has no gifts in those areas is the one called on to do these things just redoubles that.

[bananacat]

dawbs,

I don't know what denomination you are and how committed you are to it (I'm assuming at least some type of Christian because you refer to it as "church"), but if you are willing to try out different types, there are plenty of denominations that believe in equality. I was raised Methodist and had plenty of women in leadership roles. The other thing I like about Methodism is that pastors are rotated every few years (I think 7 is standard). Some people like it and some don't, but I think it's always good to get a fresh perspective. So you could really build up a community with your church but throughout your lifetime you could have both male and female pastors. Of course individual churches vary, and if you live in an old-fashioned area, it might be hard to find a non-sexist church community even if the denomination is technically good about those things. My mom's church got a female pastor a few years ago and several members left because of it, because apparently they never noticed the "Methodist" thing on the church sign :roll: I think it was a good thing all around because those people moved onto conservative churches where they fit in better, and my mom's church had fewer judgy types in the congregation. Anyway, I'm rambling because I have insomnia but I don't think you should give up yet if it's important to you.

[Guest Anonymous]

You're also using a breed of cat in your icon that is far, far too awesome to be associated with a loser like you.

Well....at least the text is true.

[treemom]

If you replace the word women with african Americans and it seems wrong to you, then it is sexual discrimination and bigotry.

[formergothardite]

If you replace the word women with african Americans and it seems wrong to you, then it is sexual discrimination and bigotry.

All of them have refused to address why discriminating against women in the church is okay, but they would be horrified if the church did the same thing to African Americans. People who fought against integration used the Bible and history to back up their beliefs, so if it wasn't right for them to do it, why are Genie, Babycakes and AretaJo cool with doing this to women?

And AretaJo, you are supporting the idea that little girls should be raised in a religion where women are not viewed as equal to men, I worry about those little girls who are getting that message, even if you don't. I know it bothered me growing up, I just knew better than to really question it a lot.

Genie, since you are supposedly a Christian, do you think your behaviour here has been a good reflection of what Christ wanted? With the whole turn the other cheek and being kind to your enemies thing He preached?

[nutella addict]

Since I skimmed most of this thread, forgive me if it's repetitive, but someone upthread mentioned that their LCMS didn't let women do anything. In my LCMS church women can be any position except Pastor - we have plenty of women deacons, boys and girls both acolyte, and we have had female music directors through right now we have a man. All confirmed members (confirmation is at the end of 8th grade) can vote, male or no. However, the pastor rule is a touchy subject with some and I know families who have left because of it. And I admit my family is looking at ELCA churches right now, for a variety of reasons but including realizing just how conservative LCMS is, and that our church seems to be rather a more liberal exception...

[fluttershies]

FS, the eastern orthodox church DOES use the verses regarding the Aaronic priesthood to model the role of the priest. It's taught in our seminaries, so you'll have to take up the theological problems with them. I am giving you accurate information in regard to how the theology of the orthodox priesthood developed.

formergothadite, I explained how the eastern orthodox church developed the male priesthood. You can beat the drum of how dare they take this or that bible verse to have male only priests, when we all know that churches from the most liberal to the most conservative make selective use of the bible. As for what I issues I choose or don't choose to personally lead a fight over in church, that's between me, my conscience, and God. When I start going into the secular world and saying or voting that women shouldn't be President because my church has only male priests, then you can worry.

Apologies, I didn't know what EO meant and figured you were in a conservative Episcopal church.

[QAF_Rocks]

Honestly, the very concept of "clergy" creeps me out, but women should be given the same opportunities. They should demand to be treated equally. Religious institutions that don't allow female leaders only survive because the women in those communities accept it and put up with it.