Churches that don't allow women to be leaders.

[fundiefun]

Catholic practicing convert weighing in. In almost every church minus methodist including the Lutheran one before I converted there were no Women in leadership roles whatsoever minus reading during service if that counts. I guess it's what I'm used to and I've never really second guessed it.

[formergothardite]

What do you specifically mean by "leaders"? Pastors, sunday school teachers, or any role with leadership over men?

I grew up in a Nazarene church and we had a female assistant pastor for awhile --- until it was found she was having an affair with the music director's wife, um that didn't go down too well. I will give them credit though that most of what I heard was about the adultery aspect of it and not the homosexuality. I believe they are raising their kids together now, no idea what happened to their husbands. Since being married, we've gone to a Southern Baptist, Reformed Baptist and a Christ Community, all of which didn't allow women pastors. We currently attend a non-denominational church and no, there are no women leaders, although we do have one female deacon (she also happens to be in charge of the kitchen). It's mostly ladies teaching the kids' Sunday school classes, but there would never be a woman in a position teaching men.

Do they not allow women leaders at your church or is there just none?

[Guest Anonymous]

The evangelical church I belonged to as a teenager/young adult did not allow women in positions of leadership and for a long while we were not even allowed to suggest hymns in the 'open' part of the meeting. It was very damaging to grow up there and I wish I had left much sooner.

[ShesCrafty]

What do you specifically mean by "leaders"? Pastors, sunday school teachers, or any role with leadership over men?

I grew up in a Nazarene church and we had a female assistant pastor for awhile --- until it was found she was having an affair with the music director's wife, um that didn't go down too well. I will give them credit though that most of what I heard was about the adultery aspect of it and not the homosexuality. I believe they are raising their kids together now, no idea what happened to their husbands. Since being married, we've gone to a Southern Baptist, Reformed Baptist and a Christ Community, all of which didn't allow women pastors. We currently attend a non-denominational church and no, there are no women leaders, although we do have one female deacon (she also happens to be in charge of the kitchen). It's mostly ladies teaching the kids' Sunday school classes, but there would never be a woman in a position teaching men.

If you mean that this could never happen in your church, to me, this is wrong. Any church that limits what women can do simply because they are women is part of the problem. I would almost say this is worse than the churches that preach women should stay home barefoot and pregnant because at least that is blatant and the majority of rational people will recognize the inequality. Whereas churches such as yours are more likely to get a pass even though they are still in the wrong. After all, they're not saying women can't wear pants or work outside of the home, they're just saying that women aren't as good as men for some things. Almost, but not quite.

[Knight of Ni]

I only recently became fully aware of the fact that the church I attend when I'm home from college believes that women can't have leadership roles. I am hurt beyond belief especially since my mom completely buys it and believes that it's ok. She even says "well that's what it says in the bible". She got really mad when I told her she should go get a head covering too. I had heard of the fact that many churches didn't believe in women leadership but honestly believed that it had gone the way of the belief that left handed people are evil.

I do know one thing for sure. I will NOT attend a church with those beliefs so I guess it'll be a Methodist, Lutheran, or Episcopal church for me.

Also I read somewhere that the passages that deal with women leadership in the church were added in later editions. Can anyone verify that claim?

[contrary]

to say that jesus' disciples were all men is total bullshit. mary magdeline is one of the most influential people in jesus' life and ministry. clearly, HE valued women.

[Lady]

I was raised LCMS which didn't allow women to do squat. I am now in a very liberal ELCA church. We are currently going through the process of becoming open an affirming. After our long time Palestinian pastor left we had a woman as an interim pastor. We now have an openly gay man.

[Austin]

If you mean that this could never happen in your church, to me, this is wrong. Any church that limits what women can do simply because they are women is part of the problem. I would almost say this is worse than the churches that preach women should stay home barefoot and pregnant because at least that is blatant and the majority of rational people will recognize the inequality. Whereas churches such as yours are more likely to get a pass even though they are still in the wrong. After all, they're not saying women can't wear pants or work outside of the home, they're just saying that women aren't as good as men for some things. Almost, but not quite.

The last church we tried (for several years, not a couple of Sundays) was a large homechurch model in my city. Basically, there are about 4,000 people across the city who meet together in local homes once a week and then about 10 homechurches come together and meet at more central location once per week. They also have a large building where everyone can meet together, but that only happens a couple of times a year. Mostly the building is used for types of activities and community events. This is not "homechurch" in the way that the Maxwells or whomever do homechurch - it's very inclusive - you can bring anybody and they are welcomed generally no matter who they are as opposed to the homechurch model that is very isolated and cloistered.

Anyhoo, this seemed to be a pretty hip group. This church was started by a group of OSU student/hippie types in the 1980s and has grown from there. I asked over and over again about the egalitarian thing, as it is important to us. We've had a very happy marriage for nearly 30 years now being intentionally egalitarian. I was told that yes, yes, it is egalitarian, don't worry, women teach, women can do anything, blah, blah. And lo and behold, women taught regularly in homechurch groups. The issue was rarely discussed (except for when my husband or I brought it up) and everything seemed fine.

But little things began to bother me. I was asked point blank by one of the wives on our leadership team, "Do you have a problem with Paul?" (the apostle). My husband was grilled on his belief on the inerrancy of scripture (uh, yeah, we don't believe that scripture is "inerrant"). The final straw was when they invited Mark Driscoll to speak at their annual conference. I dug into their church documents, their mission and belief statements, etc., and while they are loath to be pinned down on it, I finally found where they said that when push comes to shove, the husband is in charge.

I couldn't do it. I didn't care how much they wrapped it up in a pretty bow or how far down they buried it, it was clearly part of their identity and since it is something I had come to view as morally repugnant, it was a dealbreaker for both of us. I was accused of "majoring on minors", "throwing the baby out with the bathwater", and asked, "If it doesn't really affect you, why do you care?" I didn't get any of those things because I don't think how an organization views women is "minor", and if the baby is sexism, I'm not at all hesitant to pitch that baby out. It certainly affected me and my husband, and every other person, whether they realized it or not.

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

Do they not allow women leaders at your church or is there just none?

To be honest I don't know that it's written in our by-laws or anything (it may be, I haven't actually read them), but I know that it would be agreed upon by everyone in our church. Yes, including me.

And before you even ask, these verses in I Timothy ch 2 "11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." are where I get that belief. I know you will completely disagree with me and I'm okay with that. I'm not asking anyone to agree with me, and you will be wasting your time trying to scold me. Also, before someone tries to put words in my mouth, I think that this applies only within the church. I'm not trying to say women shouldn't be college professors or any other such nonsense. I'm not trying to be a pain in the butt here, I just don't want to be fake just so all the FJers will like me more.

[Arete]

I'm Eastern Orthodox and women are not priests. To be honest, it has yet to become a hot button issue the way it is in Catholicism. For me personally, it's a non issue. Even if women never become EO priests, it's not important enough to cause me to walk out the door. Sexism is when you think a man's role is more important than a woman's role and vis versa.

Edit to Add: Women do teach men in our seminaries (theology, not how to be a good wife), and can be/are elected presidents and members of parish and archdiosan councils.

[ShesCrafty]

To be honest I don't know that it's written in our by-laws or anything (it may be, I haven't actually read them), but I know that it would be agreed upon by everyone in our church. Yes, including me.

And before you even ask, these verses in I Timothy ch 2 "11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." are where I get that belief. I know you will completely disagree with me and I'm okay with that. I'm not asking anyone to agree with me, and you will be wasting your time trying to scold me. Also, before someone tries to put words in my mouth, I think that this applies only within the church. I'm not trying to say women shouldn't be college professors or any other such nonsense. I'm not trying to be a pain in the butt here, I just don't want to be fake just so all the FJers will like me more.

Can you explain the bolded part? Why do you believe that this should apply only in church and not in other areas (such as universities)? After quickly reading this in context from the KJV, that passage does not sound like it is strictly speaking of a church setting and if you believe in it, I don't understand why you would think it's acceptable for women to be leaders in one part of society but not another.

I'm not being snarky, this is a genuine question. I am completely non-religious, I have never been to any type of religious service in my life. One of the things that has always confused me about religion is that it seems so easy to pick and choose what passages you want to believe and easy to interpret those in many different ways. I'm speaking mostly about Christianity in this case, as I am in the U.S. and it is what I'm most familiar with, though I have no doubt that the religious texts of most if not all religions can be interpreted in many different ways.

[formergothardite]

To be honest I don't know that it's written in our by-laws or anything (it may be, I haven't actually read them), but I know that it would be agreed upon by everyone in our church. Yes, including me.

And before you even ask, these verses in I Timothy ch 2 "11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." are where I get that belief. I know you will completely disagree with me and I'm okay with that. I'm not asking anyone to agree with me, and you will be wasting your time trying to scold me. Also, before someone tries to put words in my mouth, I think that this applies only within the church. I'm not trying to say women shouldn't be college professors or any other such nonsense. I'm not trying to be a pain in the butt here, I just don't want to be fake just so all the FJers will like me more.

So you think that discriminating against women in the church is fine and dandy? So if a little girl came to you crying because just being a woman makes her not good enough to be a leader what would you tell her "Suck it up and get over it?"

[ShesCrafty]

I'm Eastern Orthodox and women are not priests. To be honest, it has yet to become a hot button issue the way it is in Catholicism. For me personally, it's a non issue. Even if women never become EO priests, it's not important enough to cause me to walk out the door. Sexism is when you think a man's role is more important than a woman's role and vis versa.

Um, no. Sexism is when you discriminate against women. Period. The end. I don't quite understand the loathing and mistrust some people on this forum appear to have for the English dictionary.

[formergothardite]

BabyCakes and AreteJo, what is the difference between your churches discriminating against women and churches in the past that discriminated against black people?

[Arete]

Speaking for my church, we marched in the civil rights movement (including our top leadership) all the while still having men only priests. So if you mean to imply that not having women priests makes you identical to racial purists, no go.

Edit to Add-Churches that discriminated against blacks did not want them in their midst PERIOD. They weren't considered fit to mix in white society.

[lilwriter85]

I was raised Catholic and I disliked the Church's stance on not letting women be priests. I'm atheist now and I have see the debate over women as church leaders go on in some Protestant circles. About ten years ago, I worked with a woman whose family left the Episcopalian church because they didn't agree with women being pastors. I was pretty shocked when I heard that. Last year, my boyfriend's relatives told us about how the elders at the church refused to consider a woman applicant for an associate pastor position.

[formergothardite]

That isn't what I asked, I asked how is discriminating against women any better than discriminating against black people? Your church will fight against one, but supports the other. What is the difference? Why is it okay to discriminate against women and treat them as lesser than men?

[fundiefun]

I'm Eastern Orthodox and women are not priests. To be honest, it has yet to become a hot button issue the way it is in Catholicism. For me personally, it's a non issue. Even if women never become EO priests, it's not important enough to cause me to walk out the door. Sexism is when you think a man's role is more important than a woman's role and vis versa.

Edit to Add: Women do teach men in our seminaries (theology, not how to be a good wife), and can be/are elected presidents and members of parish and archdiosan councils.

I also don't see myself walking out the door of the Catholic church anytime soon or in the future.

[ShesCrafty]

Speaking for my church, we marched in the civil rights movement (including our top leadership) all the while still having men only priests. So if you mean to imply that not having women priests makes you identical to racial purists, no go.

Edit to Add-Churches that discriminated against blacks did not want them in their midst PERIOD. They weren't considered fit to mix in white society.

I'm not sure that "Eastern Orthodoxy: Not nearly as bad as the KKK!" is a slogan I'd be proud of. You may not discriminate by refusing to allow women to attend your church, but you still discriminate.

[emmiedahl]

Speaking for my church, we marched in the civil rights movement (including our top leadership) all the while still having men only priests. So if you mean to imply that not having women priests makes you identical to racial purists, no go.

Edit to Add-Churches that discriminated against blacks did not want them in their midst PERIOD. They weren't considered fit to mix in white society.

Actually, KKK members had blacks in their midst all the time. They had black people working in their home, in their community. White supremacists generally have no problem with black people who stay in their assigned role. Sound familiar?

As for marching in the civil rights movement, I agree that most modern churches are not overtly racist. Congratulations on being one of them, I guess. But this does not mean that there is no discrimination.

If your church treated black men the way they treat women, would it be okay?

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

Can you explain the bolded part? Why do you believe that this should apply only in church and not in other areas (such as universities)? After quickly reading this in context from the KJV, that passage does not sound like it is strictly speaking of a church setting and if you believe in it, I don't understand why you would think it's acceptable for women to be leaders in one part of society but not another.

I'm not being snarky, this is a genuine question. I am completely non-religious, I have never been to any type of religious service in my life. One of the things that has always confused me about religion is that it seems so easy to pick and choose what passages you want to believe and easy to interpret those in many different ways. I'm speaking mostly about Christianity in this case, as I am in the U.S. and it is what I'm most familiar with, though I have no doubt that the religious texts of most if not all religions can be interpreted in many different ways.

I can understand where you're coming from, I'm always lamenting to my husband about why God couldn't have made some of the scriptures a little more obvious. Those that are open to interpretation cause so much controversy. As for this passage, I Timothy is a letter written to Timothy by Paul, its main theme being church organization. That's why I believe it applies within the church.

[Kelya]

I was raised Catholic. After I made my First Communion, I told my religion teacher that I wanted to be an altar boy. She said, "You can't. That's just for boys." I knew it was a load of shit then. I left as soon as I turned 18.

I seriously probably would have stayed a lot longer if I'd been allowed to serve as an altar server. Apparently its allowed now and technically was allowed when I was younger, but I specifically remember being told that it was a job for a boy and that I shouldn't apply. I really enjoyed bringing the gifts up and even enjoyed doing the collections, but that was the limits of my participation. I got kicked out of CCD at like 13/14 when I got a teacher who was actually Catholic and not culturally Catholic. I'd had nice women as CCD teachers for years, ones who you knew used birth control and gave a little lip and worked, and would be fine if their kid was gay, and then i got this asshole man who actually practiced the views of the catholic church. I lasted three classes with him before being asked to leave.

I went to a Dignity USA meeting, which is a pro women gay friendly version of Catholicism, and it was okay, but just wasn't right for me anymore. I'm not a reformer from the inside, I'm not interested in "fixing" the Catholic church, I'd rather see the church disintegrate and dissolve, so yeah, past all that.

If I went to church, which I'm interested in doing again, it would not be somewhere that women weren't allowed to serve in leadership positions, and I probably wouldn't attend somewhere that there weren't women actively in leadership positions, since I've seen a lot of doubletalk about what's allowed and what's actually done. I went to a Lutheran church with a women pastor and a gay woman assistant pastor for awhile, and that was nice.

[Avalondaughter]

I remember when I was attending a Presbyterian church in my teen years (raised Catholic and got experimental), in the NYC suburbs, there was resistance in that church to female leaderships. It was not fundie, but was definitely conservative. My Sunday School teachers were often women, but they were pretty clear that while women could have careers and play certain roles in the church, but leadership roles belonged to men. I didn't like it and said so, but I was always the liberal who questioned whether policies were fair or really all that Biblical.

[ShesCrafty]

I can understand where you're coming from, I'm always lamenting to my husband about why God couldn't have made some of the scriptures a little more obvious. Those that are open to interpretation cause so much controversy. As for this passage, I Timothy is a letter written to Timothy by Paul, its main theme being church organization. That's why I believe it applies within the church.

And yet, churches that don't restrict the roles of women would interpret that passage completely differently. That's the problem I have with religion. Why are you so certain that your interpretation is better than someone else's? And why is it okay to tell the children in your church that girls are less than boys, that they aren't quite good enough to lead, because that is the interpretation you have chosen to believe?

[emmiedahl]

I can understand where you're coming from, I'm always lamenting to my husband about why God couldn't have made some of the scriptures a little more obvious. Those that are open to interpretation cause so much controversy. As for this passage, I Timothy is a letter written to Timothy by Paul, its main theme being church organization. That's why I believe it applies within the church.

(I'm trying to find a way to write this without sounding bitchy, but I can't. The internet is just like that I guess.)

So, you think that sexism is right?

Does your church follow all Biblical laws or just the ones that are convenient for sexist men?

How do you explain the importance of women in Christ's ministry, his admonishment NOT to stay busy with menial work, the importance of Chloe as an early church leader?