Antitheist kids and respect?

[Arielkay]

Kids do absorb what they're taught. That said, I had a hell of a lot more trouble growing up with secular parents in the Bible Belt. Kids can be cruel, and they WERE. I can't say how many times I was told I was going to hell because I didn't know all about God or go to their church. One girl told me in the first grade the highly embellished story of Herod murdering babies (she had a whole story of him ripping a sword through the babies) that gave me nightmares. So glad she got the best out of Sunday school there! Yet it's the atheist kid that says belief in God is silly that's the one who should shape up? I mean, yes, we all must learn to be respectful to other people, if for no other reason than people will not want to be around you if you're rude. But I have never once heard anyone gripe at a kid for being "too religious". Everyone acts like it's so fabulous if a kid goes on and on about Jesus.

Edited because it is 8:19 and I'm still asleep.

[Austin]

[Okay, I should qualify that, good point.

I think if one's beliefs involve stepping on other people's toes, then yeah, ridicule away. But I would not ridicule a person for being Christian just on that basis. Nor if they were Hindu, or atheist, or if they believed in unicorns.

There is a huge difference between believing in God and believing that women should be helpmeets. Or that gays are sinning. Or whatever.

QFT. Dismissing anyone who has a spiritual or supernatural belief on that basis alone is the dismisser's own loss. They can feel all smart and self-righteous about it, but their circle of friends is going to be pretty small and echo-chamber-like.

Friends with differing beliefs challenge me, and often reaffirm my own beliefs. When my Christian (not fundie) friends refer to their faith, it mostly makes me all the more glad I've left it, but I don't dismiss them as people and I don't feel as though I'm better or smarter than they are. No one can prove there is a god, but no one can prove there isn't one, either. Children can be taught very early to understand that there are legitimate differences in the ways that people believe (or don't believe), and it's not right to be rude to them only on the basis that they have a faith.

And there is no practical difference between saying "your faith in religion is ridiculous" and "you are ridiculous". It can be parsed out until the cows come home, but it is, for practical purposes, the same thing. If someone says in my presence, "Earning a degree in business is ridiculous" when I've earned a degree in business, how am I not going to see that they believe I'm ridiculous for choosing such a path?

[ellerigby]

But four year olds will say the darnedest things. I would just say something along the lines of: "I personally think so too, but it's not polite to tell other people that." (wink, wink)

I agree with this. I hope she is always just as outspoken and confident as she is now, but it's never too early to learn that being tactful, polite, and logical (rather than belittling and attacking someone) can be more effective when trying to teach people about beliefs drastically different from theirs.

[Swamptribe]

I raised three atheist kids. Four is not too young. You may want to approach her dad and let him know that it might be a good idea for her to turn it down. She's just setting herself up to be harassed massively in school. I had this problem with my daughter when she was little. When she would go to a youth group or church service with a friend I was always terrified she's say something horribly negative about religion to the people. I talked to her about it, about showing respect for others beliefs in their proverbial houses, and she listened.

[Doomed Harlottt]

Could it be that she's angry at "God" because her mother died? Which is why she is so vocal is her opinion that religion is ridiculous?

I think that's highly unlikely. She can't be angry at God if she doesn't believe that God exists. And I am sure she doesn't believe because her father has told her there is no God.

I think her being vocal about this is typical kid behavior. Kids LOVE being told that they have some special knowledge that a lot of grown ups don't have. She feels special because she knows God doesn't exist unlike all those silly adults who think otherwise. The same phenomenon is why it is so easy to manipulate children into laughing at scientists who believe in evolution.

[quinoa]

I'm sure you want her to continue to explore her understanding of the world and of the place of religion in culture, just in a more private setting. To my mind, the goal would be to discourage her from calling other people stupid, particularly to their faces. There's a difference between calling names and questioning beliefs and behaviors.

On the empathy front, here is what has worked for me:

There are very complicated and interconnected neural circuits relating inward emotions and outward displays (e.g. body language and facial expressions). For a small child, it can be very hard to imagine how someone else is feeling, but if you ask her to make a face to show how someone else might be feeling, it can trigger some of those same feelings (in a mild form, of course) in the child herself.

When I want my son to consider the effects of his words or actions on others, I say something like "It can hurt people's feelings to be called stupid. Show me with your face how it would feel if someone said you are stupid. Okay," - then I hug him in case he's becoming sad - "the things you say matter to other people, and you have the responsibility to choose words or ways of disagreeing that are less hurtful."

Just my two cents.

[latraviata]

I agree with this.

Me too

[crassy]

I absolutely agree with the first paragraph.

As for the second paragraph, I think respect is a very devalued concept. I really don't have respect for anybody just like that. And honestly I don't have much respect for people believing in some sort of deity.

I accept and tolerate it, but respect??

I have enough respect for other humans and non-humans that I don't walk out my door and start stabbing them in the face. Anything beyond common decency needs to be earned.

I probably should have made that more clear in my post. :)

[valsa]

QFT. Dismissing anyone who has a spiritual or supernatural belief on that basis alone is the dismisser's own loss. They can feel all smart and self-righteous about it, but their circle of friends is going to be pretty small and echo-chamber-like.

Friends with differing beliefs challenge me, and often reaffirm my own beliefs. When my Christian (not fundie) friends refer to their faith, it mostly makes me all the more glad I've left it, but I don't dismiss them as people and I don't feel as though I'm better or smarter than they are. No one can prove there is a god, but no one can prove there isn't one, either. Children can be taught very early to understand that there are legitimate differences in the ways that people believe (or don't believe), and it's not right to be rude to them only on the basis that they have a faith.

And there is no practical difference between saying "your faith in religion is ridiculous" and "you are ridiculous". It can be parsed out until the cows come home, but it is, for practical purposes, the same thing. If someone says in my presence, "Earning a degree in business is ridiculous" when I've earned a degree in business, how am I not going to see that they believe I'm ridiculous for choosing such a path?

Oh please. Someone at Doomed Harlottt's job gave her a book that painted all atheists as not only ridiculous, but as amoral and/or evil, and no one here batted an eye when he was characterized as her "friend" and that he "meant well".

Why is it only when atheists disagree with people who believe, that suddenly it's such a horrible thing to judge beliefs and the two can’t be friends? I’d bet, if pressed, 80-90% of Christians (not just fundies) would say that their Jewish, Muslim, Hindi, Buddhist, Pagan, atheist, agnostic, and other Christian (the “wrong kindâ€) friends are going to hell for having the wrong beliefs. Yet, that’s perfectly acceptable in our culture and no one says they’re not friends. Frankly, I’d think someone saying you’re going to hell for believing the wrong thing is a lot worse than someone who thinks you’re just wrong for believing in the first place.

[mnb357]

My parents raised us as humanists.(An aside, when I needed surgery, it was funny to a seven year old me see my father have to spell "humanist"for the nurse who typed my wristbands.) Anyway, when we were the age of your Small, we were tod in no uncertain terms that it was impolite to discuss religion, politics, or money outside of the home, or to those in the home who chose not to discuss it. Man, did this ever drive home th factthat many of my churchgoing classmates had bad manners. So did some of our teachers....and it was sure satisfying to tell a second teacher that it was very impolite of her to ask about my (lack of) religion. At age four, this approach may best serve your Small.

*Pardon typos...I am using my Kindle. I prefer a Selectric to a touchpad!

[emmiedahl]

Oh please. Someone at Doomed Harlottt's job gave her a book that painted all atheists as not only ridiculous, but as amoral and/or evil, and no one here batted an eye when he was characterized as her "friend" and that he "meant well".

Why is it only when atheists disagree with people who believe, that suddenly it's such a horrible thing to judge beliefs and the two can’t be friends? I’d bet, if pressed, 80-90% of Christians (not just fundies) would say that their Jewish, Muslim, Hindi, Buddhist, Pagan, atheist, agnostic, and other Christian (the “wrong kindâ€) friends are going to hell for having the wrong beliefs. Yet, that’s perfectly acceptable in our culture and no one says they’re not friends. Frankly, I’d think someone saying you’re going to hell for believing the wrong thing is a lot worse than someone who thinks you’re just wrong for believing in the first place.

As a religious person, I found that book incredibly disrespectful. It is ridiculous and ignorant to imply that atheists have no moral code or to re-write a famous book with them recast as the demons.

When you say religion is ridiculous, you are including most of the people on your list--Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Pagans, the "wrong" Christians. Many of these people do not think you are ridiculous and believe you have legitimate beliefs that should be protected by law from abusive religious organizations. You have every right to call me ridiculous, but I personally would not encourage that in a child. If you wish to, it's your kid.

[valsa]

When you say religion is ridiculous, you are including most of the people on your list--Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Pagans, the "wrong" Christians.

Are you under the impression I don't realize this?

Many of these people do not think you are ridiculous and believe you have legitimate beliefs that should be protected by law from abusive religious organizations.

I may think it's ridiculous to believe in magic sky fairies, but that doesn't mean I don't think people who do believe (ALL of them) should be protected by law when it comes to having those beliefs. Just as the people who don't believe should be protected. I don't have to think someone's beliefs are legitimate to think they should be protected.

You have every right to call me ridiculous, but I personally would not encourage that in a child. If you wish to, it's your kid.

Where did I say a child should be encouraged to call someone ridiculous? I only support teaching a child that people who believe in the supernatural have no empirical basis for what they believe, because it's true. That's why it's called having faith. I would personally throw in lessons on the reasons people believe in the supernatural, such as it answering questions science can’t and as a comfort in times of crisis. However, if they come to the conclusion that people are ridiculous for having baseless beliefs, that's their conclusion. If they're little like the OP's relative, I'll let them know that saying that out loud can hurt other people's feelings so they should keep it to themselves, but I'm not going to try and convince them that they’re wrong.

You seem bound and determined to read things into my statements that aren't there. Why? Why are you so defensive?

[emmiedahl]

I'm not being defensive. I just would like to see people not taught to ridicule others, something that you seem to advocate. On a personal level, atheists are among the most tolerant people I know, so I am just perplexed. Maybe I misunderstood, but when you call the majority of the Earth's residents 'ridiculous' based purely on their personal beliefs, I have to wonder why the hate.

[valsa]

Where did I advocate ridiculing people?

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Perhaps the Santa Claus analogy can work here.

I have no problem with admitting that I would find someone believing in Santa Claus as an adult to be pretty out there - perhaps I'd even use the word ridiculous TO MYSELF. If someone asks me, "do you find that ridiculous?" I'd probably answer yes. Might I feel smarter than the believer? On this issue, sure. They believe in nonsense, from my point of view.

That SAID though:

(1) They have a right to believe what they want, as long as it's not harming others (of course the definition of "harm" is a huge can of worms I'm leaving closed for the moment).

(2) If it's someone I care about (including the baseline "they're strangers who have done nothing to harm me") I have no desire to actively hurt them with ridicule or overly harsh denial of their beliefs unless they bring it up first. I don't care about offending their deities, I care about offending THEM. So I won't make people break religious rules or whatever it is, gratuitously, even if I find those rules pointless.

(3) Most importantly, it actually matters to me HOW they are using their belief in their lives - as far as their lives touch my life. Does their belief, even in something I might consider nonsense, give them encouragement or a mental framework to be kinder to people, to be better people, to do charity, to consider human dignity? If so, great, and that's to be respected for itself (even if other people come to those virtues by other means). Are they implementing Santa as secret Santa and the spirit of giving? If so we can talk about that (to my kid, when this discussion comes up) as a metaphor and even come to appreciate some of the messages involved, know full well it's a game and use the appropriate greetings and trappings of the game.

OR are they implementing Santa as a tool for condemnation, telling kids they're going to get coal in their stockings for every little thing? Do they use their religion to impose on other people, or worse yet, to insist that they can't be blamed for various bigotry they implement because God told them to be bigots and so it's a get out of jail free card that absolves them all responsibility for their opinions?

If it's the latter, I've no problem calling them on it and pointing out that their beliefs are in fact a choice they have to OWN.

Nice people can be religious. But not-nice people who when called on it say "don't blame me, take it up with God" don't get to be considered nice people in my world.

Aside from all that though, I've always been drawn to the "we all don't believe in gods, I just believe in one less god than you do" take on atheism, because I think most religious people DO know what it feels like to see someone else's belief and not hate on it or anything but just find it utterly irrelevant, even if they're not out to ridicule or hate anyone. I think it's maybe easier to have that view about gods you weren't introduced to even tangentially culturally as a child, rather than the ones that are "standard beliefs everyone is assumed to share, even if only very marginally" in your home region.

Hence even among atheists, in the US it seems Christianity (or even the Abrahamic religions as a group) is treated differently or more "serious" (as far as "how much we must respect the believers and not consider them silly") from other religions. Which really isn't surprising.

[valsa]

Gardenvarietycitizen, you explained that much better than I seem to have been able to.

[JesusFightClub]

TaylorMaid, those suggestions were great! I will pass them on to Small's dad. He does wonder about raising atheist kids and I think he would like that.

GiGi, Small hasn't been raised with a belief in God so I don't think she's angry with him for her mum dying. People told her "your mummy is a beautiful angel in Heaven now" and her dad explained she isn't, but we remember her with love and she stays with us that way. She trusts and loves her dad and was comfortable with that explanation, but I think maybe angry a bit at the "angel" people. She doesn't get their motivations.

Valsa and crassy and gardenvarietycitizen, you put it well. I have absolutely no problem with Small thinking their beliefs are ridiculous. But I don't want her to write off any person who has a religious belief as innately "stupid" and "silly". She is too young for the correct Marxist explanation of why people believe in religion ;) but she does need to know Mohammed at daycare isn't a bad person because he has been brought up a theist, and in her discussions with me she seems to get mixed up on this issue.

Koala, you are very kind. I think Small sees me as an annoying but interesting big sister ;) She comes to me with questions (I have promised her dad I will do the period talk when the time comes) and I try to answer. FJ helps me a lot in this.