Antitheist kids and respect?

[JesusFightClub]

I've said before about my Small Relative. Small is being brought up by her dad. Like me, he's an atheist, but he's along the Dawkins/Hitchens line which I am not. He is a fantastic dad and I am pleased as well that Small is being brought up to have a sensible view of such things.

 

However I have a bit of trouble. Small really respects her dad and she's heard him be pretty scathing about religion. So she's not the most tactful of kids at the best of times and now she's started to be quite antitheist. Her dad has strong views, but about religion, not believers. She can't see the difference.

 

Now she's saying things like "It's really stupid to believe in God" and "Only silly people think that God is actually real". (She is four.) When I told her I used to believe in God too, she was amazed and not very complimentary

 

Her dad is nothing like that, but Small is a child who is, er, free with her opinions I am at a bit of a loss. I respect Small's dad is raising her in his (lack of) beliefs and I don't want to confuse her. But I don't want her randomly wandering around saying stuff like that either. I don't know what to say when she comes out with such things.

 

I've tried "Well, they aren't right about God, but they aren't stupid or silly" but I get back "YES, they are! Because THAT isn't real!"

 

Does anyone have a similar situation or know what's best to say?

[BravaAmica]

Is four too young to start teaching her to respect other's beliefs? Maybe couch it in terms of, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." and not hurting people's feelings?

[valsa]

I lean more towards being antitheist so I pretty much agree with her but I can understand the problem of saying those things in public. Can you explain to her that it hurts people's feelings when she says those things, so she should keep those opinions to herself when in public?

[Doomed Harlottt]

I wouldn't worry too much if she's only four. Kids at that age tend to be categorical about things. While she is still that age, you might just tell her not to express the opinions in front of people because it might hurt their feelings. As she gets older, you can talk more about different religious beliefs and maybe even give her some good books about why people believe what they do, or the value that they get out of it. (As a cradle atheist, I was a little snot about religion too until someone gave me The Religions of Man by Huston Smith.)

I think it is important for her to have more flexible or nuanced beliefs about religion. If not, she might end up getting converted by the first intelligent religious person who comes along who comes up with something she hadn't been exposed to before.

[crassy]

I don't think that beliefs have an inherent right to be respected. How could they? If they did we would have to respect ALL beliefs and I just can't get behind supporting anything that is based upon nothing. I think it is silly. I can't respect anything that advocates the killing of another human being, the worshipping of a deity, the denial of scientific fact, the oppression of women, racism, sexism, xenophobia...the list is endless. I can, however, respect people.

Being respectful of people is another thing. There is a difference between saying 'I think religion is ridiculous' and 'I think YOU are ridiculous because of your religion'. The first one I have no problem with (and I really don't care if people respect it), the second one, however, is rude and disrespectful to the person in general.

[Koala]

I don't think that beliefs have an inherent right to be respected. How could they? If they did we would have to respect ALL beliefs and I just can't get behind supporting anything that is based upon nothing. I think it is silly. I can't respect anything that advocates the killing of another human being, the worshipping of a deity, the denial of scientific fact, the oppression of women, racism, sexism, xenophobia...the list is endless. I can, however, respect people.

Being respectful of people is another thing. There is a difference between saying 'I think religion is ridiculous' and 'I think YOU are ridiculous because of your religion'. The first one I have no problem with (and I really don't care if people respect it), the second one, however, is rude and disrespectful to the person in general.

+1

What do her parents think?

[emmiedahl]

I think it is generally wrong to call another person's beliefs "ridiculous" even if in the third person.

But four year olds will say the darnedest things. I would just say something along the lines of: "I personally think so too, but it's not polite to tell other people that." (wink, wink)

[valsa]

I think it is generally wrong to call another person's beliefs "ridiculous" even if in the third person.

Does that extend to the fundies we talk about here?

[SquirrelySquirrel]

I lean more and more towards being antitheist every day, but my 6 year-old is not being indoctrinated with my opinions. I prefer to wait a bit longer, 'til she's more capable of reason and logic vs. having her parrot me. But that's not really what this is about. This is about trying to shut up a 4 year-old, which can be quite tricky no matter what the subject is. :lol:

It's tough. At 4, some kids are starting to develop empathy, and playing on that is probably your best bet. Explain to her that it hurts people's feelings when she uses words like "stupid" and ask her how she'd feel if someone said "only silly/stupid people _____ " Point out that it would hurt her feelings and make her sad, and that's what her words do to others.

But ultimately, if she's being so heavily influenced by her father and he thinks this is okay, you may not be able to make much of a difference. Good luck!

[ElphabaGalinda]

Does that extend to the fundies we talk about here?

I think it's generally wrong to call another person's beliefs ridiculous if those beliefs don't affect the lives of anyone else. Fundies we talk about here cross the line in the trying to force everyone to live like they do. I think people who use those beliefs to discriminate against others also cross teh line. But for everyone else i'm a whatever floats your boat kinda person.

In terms of the original topic, i think little kids can understand that calling peoples' beliefs stupid can hurt other peoples feelings and make them sad. Generally little kids don't want to do something they know will make others sad, so that could work.

[Koala]

I have no problem at all calling a set of beliefs ridiculous.

[valsa]

I think it's generally wrong to call another person's beliefs ridiculous if those beliefs don't affect the lives of anyone else.

I'm all for civility- I'm not going to call someone's harmless beliefs ridiculous to their face, but neither am I going to entertain foolishness or refrain from pointing out it has no merit.

If you want to believe the moon is made of green cheese, good for you. But that belief is ridiculous and I see no point in acting as if it's not.

[emmiedahl]

Does that extend to the fundies we talk about here?

Okay, I should qualify that, good point.

I think if one's beliefs involve stepping on other people's toes, then yeah, ridicule away. But I would not ridicule a person for being Christian just on that basis. Nor if they were Hindu, or atheist, or if they believed in unicorns.

There is a huge difference between believing in God and believing that women should be helpmeets. Or that gays are sinning. Or whatever.

[Kitchen Princess]

Since she's only four, and apparently loves to argue, I'd give her something else to argue about. She probably only likes to argue with you because you're a willing participant. Ignore her statements and change the subject. If you act like what she says is NO BIG DEAL, she won't be tempted to say them in public to see if the reaction was better than yours.

Distract and re-direct, but she sounds like a smarty-pants so you'll have to be sly about it.

[emmiedahl]

I thought all 4 year olds love to argue. Or is that just my children? :lol: and of course to repeat anything questionable I have ever said in front of them during preschool.

[Conuly]

There's a time and a place for not having manners. When you're four, you can't tell what that time and place IS, so you need to be consistently reminded to use manners, not encouraged to say whatever's on your mind.

For true statements that aren't polite, I always repeat the phrase "It might be true, but it's still not nice to say and you should keep it to yourself. You might hurt somebody's feelings."

Obviously she doesn't know any better than to just say it. She's four. They say things like this, and they go up to people to ask "Why are you so fat?" and they say aloud "That man must have a penis!!!" and so on. And when they're not doing it by accident, they do it on purpose - four year olds can have TERRIBLE potty mouths, and often will say things like 'I hate you!' as well, at the drop of the proverbial hat. As a rule, they LOVE saying shocking things, they LOVE arguing, they LOVE "using their words".

That's why she has to be taught. I would suggest you try not reacting TOO much to this sort of thing, just treat it as somewhat less bad than hitting, but more bad than biting your toenails.

However, this advice assumes that you are responsible for her behavior for extended periods of time, or that the people who ARE responsible for her behavior will back you up if she is rude to you (or rude to somebody else where her in-charge adults can't hear her and you're the only one to step in). It is going to be difficult to have an influence on her behavior if you rarely see her and the dad models and/or encourages this sort of thing.

On that note, speaking to her dad about your concerns is the next step. If you think he'll be receptive, you should let him know so he can a. be more careful about what he's modeling around her and b. be aware that he should be on top of her behavior more.

And tangentially - listen, as I just said, small children don't really have great impulse control or understanding of social norms. A child who says "You're so fat!" might not realize that being fat is considered a bad thing and think it's the same as saying "You're so tall!" or "You're so pretty!", and if they DO realize they might not understand why they should act like they care, or they might forget.

However, when Small Children say something rude, and the grown-up with them corrects their behavior, the appropriate response is NOT some variation on "It's all right!" or "Oh, she doesn't know better". We know they don't know better. THAT IS WHY WE ARE CORRECTING THEM. Saying "Darling! That wasn't very nice. We don't mention other people's looks, ever" is hardly abusive. Save the deflecting for behavior for the childbeaters, not the normal folks.

[JesusFightClub]

These are really helpful, thanks!

Koala, Small's mum is dead, but when she was alive she was sort of culturally religious. I doubt she had any firm beliefs on the matter, or if she did she never mentioned them.

Her dad does tell her off, but sort of in a joking way like he really approves, then he'll tell the story to us with her there, and be smiling :) So it's a mixed message!

Doomed Harlott, you put your finger on something that's been bothering me about it. It seems almost as she's so young we ought to develop an easygoing attitude in her, partly so when she's older she won't fall prey to the types you mention with the "new argument". I also worry that when she goes through the inevitable rebellious phase she could get sucked into one of these groups.

I really like the idea to divert her, because she does say things for the reaction. Either her dad's or mine! Empathy she's not big on and she will normally come back with "But it's not a lie!" or if she thinks she's winding you up, she will say it again.

However sometimes she does genuinely want to know stuff. She came into my room the other day and asked what a pope did and why does he wear a dress (she had seen him on the telly). I think she was under the impression he could do magic. So at those times I try and be a bit, well, atheist but not antitheist.

We're trying to get across to her the concept that saying something which isn't true isn't always the same as lying. She was quite angry when I explained the Pope to her because "He can't really talk to God, so he is telling a big lie. He's a bad man." I tried to explain the Pope believes he can talk to God, so he isn't actually lying. Small was intrigued by this, but couldn't quite get it. Even though she must believe a hundred things which aren't true every day :D

[Patsy]

if she thinks she's winding you up, she will say it again.

I immediately like her.

[JesusFightClub]

I immediately like her.

LOL, I like to hope she'll be a FJist when she gets older. Second generation!

She is also the most bloodthirsty child I ever met and has always been that way. The more gruesome something on TV is the more she likes it, and she once answered my "What are you doing, Small?" with "I am pretending I am chopping all up a monster and eating his insides."

[TaylorMaid]

I strongly second valsa.

No belief is so sacred as to not be questioned. And no one should get to decide what form the questioning takes (see a literary festival in India being closed due to muslim extremist threats simply for having portions of The Satanic Verses read aloud, or the recent disbarment of a secular humanist student group by the London School of Economics Students' Union for posting a popular comic of Jesus and Mo drinking beer together). Too often these days, questioning is silenced in the name of not offending.

That said, a four year old armed with logic can be a dangerous thing. Teaching her to navigate society isn't going to be easy. May I suggest emailing Richard at The Friendly Atheist? He gives wonderful advice on these sorts of things. Also parentingbeyondbelief.com has written books on bringing thinking children up in a theistic society.

[crassy]

Okay, I should qualify that, good point.

I think if one's beliefs involve stepping on other people's toes, then yeah, ridicule away. But I would not ridicule a person for being Christian just on that basis. Nor if they were Hindu, or atheist, or if they believed in unicorns.

There is a huge difference between believing in God and believing that women should be helpmeets. Or that gays are sinning. Or whatever.

I respectfully disagree. I think that even mainstream religious people validate the crazies. They use the same book, pray to the same god etc., they just choose to cherry pick different parts of that book. Given that there is absolutely no empirical evidence for the supernatural and all scientific evidence to date points in the other direction...yeah, I am going to say that those beliefs are ridiculous. In my opinion they are just as ridiculous as someone who thinks that there really is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow with about as much evidence.

However, I don't advocate being rude to people for any reason. I respect people, I don't have to respect their beliefs, and I don't expect anyone else to respect my beliefs. I think to expect that is ridiculous.

[latraviata]

I don't think that beliefs have an inherent right to be respected. How could they? If they did we would have to respect ALL beliefs and I just can't get behind supporting anything that is based upon nothing. I think it is silly. I can't respect anything that advocates the killing of another human being, the worshipping of a deity, the denial of scientific fact, the oppression of women, racism, sexism, xenophobia...the list is endless. I can, however, respect people.

Being respectful of people is another thing. There is a difference between saying 'I think religion is ridiculous' and 'I think YOU are ridiculous because of your religion'. The first one I have no problem with (and I really don't care if people respect it), the second one, however, is rude and disrespectful to the person in general.

I absolutely agree with the first paragraph.

As for the second paragraph, I think respect is a very devalued concept. I really don't have respect for anybody just like that. And honestly I don't have much respect for people believing in some sort of deity.

I accept and tolerate it, but respect??

[Koala]

I immediately like her.

Me too. She reminds me of my kids :lol:

I am so sorry about her mom. It's wonderful that she has you.

[Koala]

I respectfully disagree. I think that even mainstream religious people validate the crazies. They use the same book, pray to the same god etc., they just choose to cherry pick different parts of that book. Given that there is absolutely no empirical evidence for the supernatural and all scientific evidence to date points in the other direction...yeah, I am going to say that those beliefs are ridiculous. In my opinion they are just as ridiculous as someone who thinks that there really is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow with about as much evidence.

I agree with this.

[GiGi_41]

Could it be that she's angry at "God" because her mother died? Which is why she is so vocal is her opinion that religion is ridiculous?