You'll have kids and you'll damn well pretend you like it!

[mockingbird]

I grew up Catholic and concur with the consensus that the anti-BC stance is outdated. I am in college. I know very few people in my parents' generation who were anti-BC or did NFP (and you could tell by the number of kids lol). Most of the people at my church also had 2-4 kids. I have heard of some militant/policing stances from the generation before my parents (example, family friend my parents' age needed BC as a teen for heavy periods and she and her mom had to hide it from her dad because he would be against it even though she was 13 and definitely not sexually active). But I haven't heard much from my parents' generation or mine besides the usual small amount of super-conservatives. It's not talked about openly but I have had a gazillion conversations with friends who admitted that they are on BC. LOL because they always seem a little ashamed... oh Catholic guilt...

Our priests pretty much place NFP literature in the vestibules (entryways) and mention it maybe like once a year. One time one of the super conservative families had a seminar on it (maybe I should have gone for the TMI factor of learning about their "experience" with it?!). But yeah, I feel like the priests are just paying lip service to NFP and don't really buy the whole anti-BC thing.

[GeoBQn]

What about couples that carry genetically passed diseases like Huntington's? Or some other genetic problems that would guarantee all of their children would live short painful lives. Would the TH recommend that they crank out the babies too? I guess those people should never get married OR have sex since god has obviously cursed them.

Anybody ever see the Picket Fences episode that tackled this? (It's on Hulu, the episode "Duty-Free Rome.") The plot was about a Catholic couple that had a baby die of a genetic illness, and rather than use birth control to prevent having more children with the same disease, the wife decided to stop having sex. The husband begged the priest of their parish to tell his wife that using contraception was ok. The priest could tell her that 90% of Catholics use birth control anyway, that (at the time, in 1992) the pope was considering allowing Bosnian nuns to use BC due to widespread rape during the war, that the couple had his "personal understanding" and that "G-d is very forgiving." But he just couldn't tell her it was ok to use birth control (other than the rhythm method) because it would cost him his job, and he was aware that his advice just wasn't good enough. In the end, the husband left the wife, who resigned herself to living the rest of her life alone since she couldn't remarry in the Church.

[emmiedahl]

If you want to see what happens to children who are not particularly wanted, just read That Wife's Blog. And that is what happens when the couple is committed, healthy and upwardly mobile.

Even she seems to be having second thoughts recently:

(about doing enriching activities with children) "Just the thought of doing that leaves me feeling overwhelmed and frustrated. How can you possibly keep up the house, cook all the meals, finish all of your goals for the day when you do those things? There are people out there running programs filled with employees who want to do nothing but those things with their charges. It’s so freeing to think that I can spend my time capitalizing on my strengths, while giving my child the opportunity to spend time with someone who is capitalizing on theirs. I’m not saying I want to outsource my childcare the moment they are out of the womb, but I am now allowing myself the option to think about full or part-time options for T1 and his siblings before they reach five and enter kindergarten. I have pondered how a social environment might help T1 with his speech delays..."

[EmmieJ]

My son is the product of failed BC (cervical cap). I knew it had a lower prevention rate than the Pill, but still chose to avoid using the Pill for other health-related reasons. It worked very well, right up until the time it was foiled.

I can still remember the panic that set in when I first realized I was late and quite possibly pregnant. I had broken up with the father a couple months prior. We'd had goodbye sex, and I'm pretty sure that's when one of his swimmers got through. So I was facing single motherhood, completely unexpectedly. I thought, "I can't do this!" A pregnancy test confirmed my suspicions and I had an ultrasound. And I was in love and amazed, and beside myself with joy.

But, most importantly, I had a choice in the matter. I could have chosen to have terminated the pregnancy. I consciously chose to go forward, and my son was always a very much wanted and loved child. This is what I wish for every single child born in this world. This is why I fully support access to birth control and to abortion. No child should come into the world unwanted, unloved, to be mistreated or worse. That happens way too often and it breaks my heart that I can't save them from such a fate.

I also think it must be a dreary and depressing life to be born to a mother who had you because it was her "duty" to do so, and she lets you know it at every step possible. Yuck.

[julie paradox]

oh, for....

That quote from That Wife annoys me. You are an unwaged mother by choice! Doing enriching activities is your goal for the day, you stupid woman!

I mean, yes, if she feels that way then she should definitely use professional childcare; but did it not even occur to her that this might be the case?

[daharyn]

Wasn't there some research a while back indicating that a couple should wait a few years to have children anyway, so as to establish themselves as a couple? This is what I heard growing up in Christianity, at least. Seriously, it could be for UNselfish reasons that a couple refrains from having children. But not having a sex life, especially when one is married, is just unhealthy. I don't think God would be pleased with a couple for purposely bringing children into the world that they knew they couldn't support. Now if things happen, well, sometimes things happen. It's the intent here that I'm criticizing.

Um, if you are capable of making adult decisions, and you have sexual desire, not having a sex life is unhealthy. Being married has nothing to do with it. You don't get a special right to sex if you're part of a church- or state-sanctioned twosome. And it doesn't make your sex life more important or more valuable than those who can't or choose not to marry.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Um, if you are capable of making adult decisions, and you have sexual desire, not having a sex life is unhealthy. Being married has nothing to do with it. You don't get a special right to sex if you're part of a church- or state-sanctioned twosome. And it doesn't make your sex life more important or more valuable than those who can't or choose not to marry.

Being celibate may not be much fun, but "unhealthy" may be stretching it a bit. It's not like your going to die of lust.

There are times when someone may want sex, but no suitable partner is available. Sucks, but that's life.

Not having sex for long periods of time is "unhealthy" for a long-term committed relationship, in the sense that it will likely harm the relationship.

[dairyfreelife]

Um, if you are capable of making adult decisions, and you have sexual desire, not having a sex life is unhealthy. Being married has nothing to do with it. You don't get a special right to sex if you're part of a church- or state-sanctioned twosome. And it doesn't make your sex life more important or more valuable than those who can't or choose not to marry.

I think you took her comment out of context. Thatwife claimed that if people don't want children they shouldn't get married which implies that having sex in marriage is for procreation alone. A sexless marriage often=a troubled marriage and married couples have sex for more than just procreation and that is healthy. Sex is important in a marriage. No one is claiming anything you are saying as wrong, except Thatwife. I think most here would agree that relations outside of a marriage can be just as enjoyable, but for the OT, it's about within one.

Though I will say as a single person with plenty of desire for sex, just because you want it doesn't mean you get it and that's just life. I never considered myself unhealthy that way, it's just how it is right now. I may have a relationship at some point, but as of now I haven't had any luck. I think it's just a matter of knowing you can't always have something just because you want it. The desire passes each time anyway. With age, I figure it will eventually ease and go away if I never get a relationship with a man that would come to a sexual, loving relationship. I am unhealthy in many ways, maybe sexually too, but never thought of it as unhealthy because I can't have sex even if I have the desire at times.

[booksnbeats]

I am pretty sure I'm not going to have kids. I just have no desire to do so. I'm 26 now and with a committed partner and haven't felt the need or desire to have a kid. Plus, I'm planning to be a professor, and it makes your life 100x easier to have no children in my career! I also had very, very abusive parents and a very painful childhood, so that might be a factor: a happy family life is something I have never experienced, so I can't feel compelled to recreate it. My parents definitely should not have had kids and I don't want to find myself feeling the same way. Really, my childhood and adolescence were so miserable that I've only had eight years of a happy, fulfilling life under my belt. I can't imagine finding out I'm pregnant tomorrow and preparing to devote my entire life to another person. I figure if I change my mind, there's always fostering and adoption.

[dairyfreelife]

I am pretty sure I'm not going to have kids. I just have no desire to do so. I'm 26 now and with a committed partner and haven't felt the need or desire to have a kid. Plus, I'm planning to be a professor, and it makes your life 100x easier to have no children in my career! I also had very, very abusive parents and a very painful childhood, so that might be a factor: a happy family life is something I have never experienced, so I can't feel compelled to recreate it. My parents definitely should not have had kids and I don't want to find myself feeling the same way. Really, my childhood and adolescence were so miserable that I've only had eight years of a happy, fulfilling life under my belt. I can't imagine finding out I'm pregnant tomorrow and preparing to devote my entire life to another person. I figure if I change my mind, there's always fostering and adoption.

I am sort of the same. Not an abusive childhood or anything, but don't have the desire to have children of my own. I would love to get married one day, but children aren't on the agenda so I would have a marriage and no procreation. I have loads of health issues and only a 50/50 chance of fertility anyway. I have been on and off anxiety meds since I was nine and getting pregnant on those is extremely dangerous for the child. If I ever want a child, I wold consider adoption. There's plenty of children that need a home from parent who had them and never should have had children, but did. (Sometimes children are actually orphans, I know, but most aren't. They just have shitty parents).

[Trynn]

I think you took her comment out of context. Thatwife claimed that if people don't want children they shouldn't get married which implies that having sex in marriage is for procreation alone. A sexless marriage often=a troubled marriage and married couples have sex for more than just procreation and that is healthy. Sex is important in a marriage. No one is claiming anything you are saying as wrong, except Thatwife. I think most here would agree that relations outside of a marriage can be just as enjoyable, but for the OT, it's about within one.

Yeah, this. I was saying that, even within Christianity, Thatwife is wrong.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I am sort of the same. Not an abusive childhood or anything, but don't have the desire to have children of my own. I would love to get married one day, but children aren't on the agenda so I would have a marriage and no procreation. I have loads of health issues and only a 50/50 chance of fertility anyway. I have been on and off anxiety meds since I was nine and getting pregnant on those is extremely dangerous for the child. If I ever want a child, I wold consider adoption. There's plenty of children that need a home from parent who had them and never should have had children, but did. (Sometimes children are actually orphans, I know, but most aren't. They just have shitty parents).

Both of you have excellent examples of situations where NOT having children may be the least selfish choice.

[Doomed Harlottt]

I have really appreciated the insights on this thread.

I also just remembered having a conversation on-line a couple years ago with some anti-contraception folks, as I was trying to understand their point of view. I was told that by using contraception, my husband and I were engaged in "mutual masturbation." This person was saying that we were just using each other for selfish pleasure and thus devaluing each other. It doesn't make any sense to me, and I think that it is part of the religious right's habit of just putting negative labels on things they don't like. It makes me think of G.K. Chesterton. He uses a lot of really pretty language but basically what he is saying at any given time is "I like this" or "I don't like that."

[bananacat]

It's funny that that person used "mutual masturbation" as in insult. Many couples find it to be an enjoyable activity, as you get the benefit of knowing your own body plus you get to enjoy the sight of your partner. I don't see how they ever got to the "devaluing each other" part though. That one is a complete non sequitur.