You'll have kids and you'll damn well pretend you like it!

[Doomed Harlottt]

There is a very interesting thread from yesterday at the Thinking Housewife regarding Contraception and the Culture War. The following quotes from the Housewife herself, Laura Wood, are in response to a commenter who is arguing with her.

Laura writes: Mary was responding to Bruno's example of the couple who wanted to travel and defer having children. It was not meant to be an all-encompassing example. If people don't want children, they shouldn't marry or have sexual relations.

If a couple doesn't think they will make good parents, they should try to change themselves and become good parents. Your point is similar to a teenager who, when asked to clean up his room, responds, "No, I'm not going to do that because I don't think I'd be very good at it."

[Laura writes: Again, we are so used to assuming that children should proceed from the desire for children. But, having children should not be a consumer choice. It is not necessary for it to be convenient or desirable. It is not necessary to want more children to bear and raise more children, although it is absolutely necessary to treat the children we have with love and respect.

Natural Family planning is an alternative, however,. It helps a couple remain conscious of the power they have in the relatively short period in which they are fertile.]

I gotta say. I just don't get it. Why refrain from having sex if you don't want to have children? Is the idea that sex is sort of a reward for the people who are willing to have kids, and that if you can have sex without children, the population will die out or become dangerously depleted? But then if that's the case why do the Housewife and her church endorse the Natural Family Planning method (popularly known as the rhythm method)? Why is that okay but not the pill or an IUD or a condom???? Any Catholics here with any insight on the rationale? I've read the Pope's encyclical on this and it still does not compute for me at all.

[mrs]

Wow. THIS topic is so sensitive even inside the Church.

1st -Catholic can use the pill for medical reasons, even for clearing up pimples or mood swings. It's very liberal. Even to help to get pregnant.

Why the Church doesn't allow for contraception is hard to explain. When asked by the Church " are we are willing to accept children into our life", we agreed.For me it means not to hinder life so there is no room for God. I guess we "leave room for the holy spirit." It also is a reminder of the vows we said to each other and our commitment to the Church.

That being said. We have no kids blessings, married a year and half.

It works for US. :)

[debrand]

What is up with conservative thinkers inventing really poor analogies? First, a teenage boy's unclean room is not alive. He can't screw up the room's future, self confidence or mental health by not cleaning it.

TH, like a lot of her ilk, show a real disregard of children. People who do not want kids should take precautions against having them. Wanting kids to be born into a life where they are unwanted is very cruel.

By what right does TH get to decide which consenting adults should be allowed to have sex and which shouldn't? She wants to narrow the boundaries of circumstances that people can have sex(heterosexual marriage) so that only people who agree with her have children. This gives her a lofty perch to look down upon others.

[Trynn]

Wasn't there some research a while back indicating that a couple should wait a few years to have children anyway, so as to establish themselves as a couple? This is what I heard growing up in Christianity, at least. Seriously, it could be for UNselfish reasons that a couple refrains from having children. But not having a sex life, especially when one is married, is just unhealthy. I don't think God would be pleased with a couple for purposely bringing children into the world that they knew they couldn't support. Now if things happen, well, sometimes things happen. It's the intent here that I'm criticizing.

And cleaning one's room is a LOT different from raising a child. If I'm "not good at" cleaning my room (whatever exactly that means) that doesn't really affect anyone but me. If I'm not good at being a parent, that doesn't just affect me, but my child, and probably my child's children, and possibly even my child's children's children.

[alaeangelorum]

I gotta say. I just don't get it. Why refrain from having sex if you don't want to have children? Is the idea that sex is sort of a reward for the people who are willing to have kids, and that if you can have sex without children, the population will die out or become dangerously depleted? But then if that's the case why do the Housewife and her church endorse the Natural Family Planning method (popularly known as the rhythm method)? Why is that okay but not the pill or an IUD or a condom???? Any Catholics here with any insight on the rationale? I've read the Pope's encyclical on this and it still does not compute for me at all.

TH is Catholic? How did I not realise this before??

Anyway as I understand NFP is OK because it is not actively putting a barrier in the way and it's therefore still open to life... 'leaving room for the Holy Spirit' as mrs said above.

However I can't really wrap my head round it either - you're still trying to prevent a pregnancy. No contraception is 100% effective so if God wanted you could still become pregnant if you used it. OK there are some methods that may prevent implantation so I can understand more why that would be a problem, but I have never understood why all contraception was so terribly bad.

[mrs]

TH, like a lot of her ilk, show a real disregard of children. People who do not want kids should take precautions against having them. Wanting kids to be born into a life where they are unwanted is very cruel.

I agree. 110%. I think everyone has a right to make their own decisions. I did not mean to come off crazy conservative. I was just trying to give some insight on why we choose NFP.

[debrand]

I agree. 110%. I think everyone has a right to make their own decisions. I did not mean to come off crazy conservative. I was just trying to give some insight on why we choose NFP.

Don't worry. I didn't think that you were agreeing with TH

[Doomed Harlottt]

Mrs. -- No, I really appreciate you responding to the thread. And I didn't think that you came off as crazy. Just answering the question I posed based on your faith and experience!

[mrs]

gladwell.com/2000/2000_03_10_a_rock.htm

This may be a good introduction. I heard an audio interview about the man John Rock. I will look for it some more and post the link.

[mrs]

Thanks ! lol

[reds]

I asked my priest once about birth control. He did indicate that it can be used for medical reasons and the health of the mother. Included in this... is mental health.

As someone who suffers from post partum depression and just depression in general, it would not be healthy for me or the babies if i was to allow myself to pump them out in great numbers. I would end up like Yates and having a run in with a large body of water.

[Nothing2CHere]

However I can't really wrap my head round it either - you're still trying to prevent a pregnancy. No contraception is 100% effective so if God wanted you could still become pregnant if you used it. OK there are some methods that may prevent implantation so I can understand more why that would be a problem, but I have never understood why all contraception was so terribly bad.

This. My husband & I are Catholic (although, I'm sure the Pope would disagree if he heard our viewpoints on certain things). We were married in a Catholic church and I do not feel like a hypocrite because we did agree to that whole, "Will you willingly accept children from God" part, despite the fact that I used birth control for the first five years of our marriage. Because our belief was, even though we didn't feel ready to have kids yet (because - *gasp* - we wanted to travel and spend time just the two of us before starting a family), if God could cause a virgin to get pregnant, there was no way a birth control pill was going to stop me from getting pregnant if that was truly, truly God's will for us. We were "leaving it up to God," but no one said we had to make it easy for Him. :D

[reds]

This. My husband & I are Catholic (although, I'm sure the Pope would disagree if he heard our viewpoints on certain things). We were married in a Catholic church and I do not feel like a hypocrite because we did agree to that whole, "Will you willingly accept children from God" part, despite the fact that I used birth control for the first five years of our marriage. Because our belief was, even though we didn't feel ready to have kids yet (because - *gasp* - we wanted to travel and spend time just the two of us before starting a family), if God could cause a virgin to get pregnant, there was no way a birth control pill was going to stop me from getting pregnant if that was truly, truly God's will for us. We were "leaving it up to God," but no one said we had to make it easy for Him. :D

:clap:

[mrs]

LOL I love it.

:clap:

[Letgo]

I have always kind of wondered if the emphasis on having as many babies as possible, as close together as possible, was simply a way to make it okay to have sex. The over valuation of extreme purity-no touching, no looking, wearing frumpers, no thinking about boys/girls or sex, admiring Daddy, no TV, movies, or books that might tempt one, not being alone or even speaking to members of the opposite 'gender'-does not lend itself to suddenly enjoying sex when married. They are ALWAYS on guard for any little thing that might lead to being defrauded, immodest, or impure. Maybe having many 'blessings' makes it okay to have sex. They are only doing it to produce blessings so that makes it permissible. Less guilt for having sex and enjoying it!

[rezski44]

Check out any Catholic church and you will see that most families have 2 or 3 kids tops. There will be a few with more. I'm just sayin....

[emmiedahl]

The average at my husband's parish is 4. Most families have 3-5 children, some more and some less but I think the average is around 4. Both the mean and the mode, for statistics nerds.

People should have as many children as they want and can care for. For a lot of people, that is zero.

[ADoyle90815]

My brother and SIL were married in a Catholic church, and they waited 2 years before having my niece, and right now, she's their only child because they can't afford another one as they do live in a relatively high cost of living area.

[Haligh the Liar]

My liberal super Catholic parents have two kids, almost exactly 3 years apart. My dad, who is Catholic Ned Flanders, fully admitted using birth control so that he and my mom could fully devote their time, energy, and money to me and my sister.

It's obvious when looking at families in any given parish that most Catholics use birth control. Pretty much every family has 2-3 kids, but there's always 2 or so families who obviously go all out with the kids. Anyone who grew up Catholic can probably name those families from their parish- I know I can! The G family had 8 kids, dad was a dentist, so they had money and a huge house, the L family had 9, 6 under age 7 at one point, and the dad did construction, not sure about the mom, and they definitely did not have the means to support their family.

[doggie]

The whole thing is so out of date that it's pathetic. I mean we don't live in 200ad our babies don't die like flies. Plus it is the whole outbreed the infidels thing going on and always has. Because breeding is the most reliable way to make Christians.

[Doomed Harlottt]

In a post she just put up, TH says:

When contraception is widely available, when it is embraced as normal, when births are planned and scheduled, when deliberation replaces surrender, when convenience replaces hardship and struggle, every child seems like a choice, the product of human will and desire. This delusion represents immense hubris. No child is chosen. What is chosen in this face? It’s a gift too good to be true.

This is the anti-bc rationale in a nutshell. I just cannot for the life of me see why hardship and struggle are to be preferred for their own sake. Or why it is so horrible for a child to be chosen.

I also wonder if the idea TH expresses really represents the primal source of most misogyny -- the fear that women have the power of life and death. It seems weird. It's not really a fear I can relate to. But you see a lot of anti-choice, anti-BCers arguing freaking out at the idea that their mothers could have chosen not to have them.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I'm completely incapable of seeing the logic behind this.

[i pretty much disagree with everything from TH, but often it's just vomiting out the bile. This post seems less focused on overt hatred, but OTOH more confident in following some established religious reasoning.]

Everything in my personal and professional experience shows me that desire to be a parent DOES matter. I've mentioned this stuff before, but after my first miscarriage, when I was going out of my mind with grief, the desire to hold a baby was so overwhelming that I could practically touch it. At that time, I was also working with clients in the family court system. When I subsequently had a healthy pregnancy, some of my clients were pregnant at the same time. There was no comparison between our experiences. For hubby and I, the pregnancy was the best thing ever, and we pretty much heard angels singing when the ultrasound tech told us that things were going well. For one client, the pregnancy was the result of a rape, and for another, it was an unplanned event compounding an already shaky marital and financial situation.

These two clients meant well, and neither would intentionally harm her baby. That said, our different mindsets shaped everything. I was focused on eating right, they were still smoking when they got stressed. I was so happy that I had no physical complaints, they were overwhelmed. More importantly, my baby was born into a stable and loving situation where she was literally seen as a miracle, and was treated accordingly. She had reflux and refused to sleep at night, but through the exhaustion I remembered the horrible nights of longing for a baby in my arms. Meanwhile, I had cases where young infants were hospitalized with broken ribs or Shaken Baby Syndrome, inflicted by parents who clearly weren't coping with the demands of a baby. We made it past a painful start in breastfeeding, and I obsessed over making sure that my baby was gaining weight. A few months later, I was detailing with the daily details of an inquest into the death of a baby who was starved to death by a clueless and negligent mother. When my tot ate 13 fish sticks and then vomited all over my hair one night, my main thought was her well-being as I saw her shaking and looking distressed, and I also had no problem waking my son every night and changing the sheets when I didn't make it on time. At the same time, I was dealing with cases where parents would get enraged over toileting accidents or fail to clean the children, and following a local story where a child was repeatedly beaten, finally to death, for vomiting and toileting accidents.

I'm not saying this to make myself sound wonderful, but to make the point that we can't just assume that everyone can cope with a pregnancy, wanted or not.

To me, it's not selfish to be honest enough to admit that you may not be able to cope. It's only selfish to proceed to have children when you know that you and/or your partner may not cope well, but you want approval from your family or community/want to prevent a partner from leaving you/want a baby to cuddle even if your partner has poor control of their mental illness/don't want to bother with birth control or face anyone's disapproval for using it, etc.

[Hane]

This in a nutshell.

I occasionally wonder whether the TH is just pulling outrageously controversial $#!+ out of his/her @$$, just to get folks all riled up.

[pimpom]

Because breeding is the most reliable way to make Christians.

And there you have it, the reason behind it all. Couldn't agree more!

[Arielkay]

I had a preacher who actually said "we really know how to get new members" when referring to a recent baby boom at the fundie-lite church I used to attend. :roll: