Irresponsible Assholes are Irresponsible

[Burris]

I’m going to make a bold assertion, but one I think it often true: There aren’t too many issues people are wont to simplify more than the phenomenon of mental illness. We see it here on FJ all the time, with folks such as Zsuzsanna offering simplistic, pat “remedies.†Another manifestation of the same is “Nouthetic Counseling,†which is potentially (and perhaps often) worse for people with mental illness than simply doing nothing.

Although crunchy New Agers are prone when it comes to either giving or following bad mental health advice, fundies are worse: At least the New Agers usually don’t claim suicide is a one-way ticket to Hell.

I was surfing the net last night in search of new topics to discuss here on FJ when I found a mother-lode of half-baked exegesis and bad, weak, glib advice in the form of a website called, “What does the Bible say?†(WDBS).

My first close encounter was with the author’s article on Biblical Marriage, which is filled with loose assertions about “modern society†but nary a fact or figure in sight. I had planned to snark on it for precisely that reason, and perhaps even formulate a drinking game around the phrase “modern society.â€

That would have been a lot more fun than what I ended up doing instead.

I made the dreadful, soul-sucking mistake of clicking on WDBS’s “Controversial†tag, where I found such enlightening articles as, “What Does the Bible Say about Homosexuality?†(C’mon, guess.)

WDBS’s most recent article, now located at the top of a list, is called, “What Does the Bible Say about Suicide?â€

There are 679 words in that article, and all of them can be boiled down to this: ‘Murder is wrong. Suicide is murder. People who kill themselves are hell-bound. If you turn your life over to Jesus and read the Bible, you selfish bastard, then you’ll learn to look outward and your existence will be all sunshine and rainbows.’

Here’s from the first paragraph:

Unfortunately, suicide is rampant both in the United States and around the world. According to Wikipedia, in 2005 suicides in the United States outnumbered homicides by nearly 2 to 1. That means there were approximately twice as many suicides as there were murders. That is staggering. But the United States is not alone. Wikipedia also reports that worldwide suicide rates have increased 60 percent over the last 50 years. Something is terribly, terribly wrong. The truth is that the world is increasingly rejecting God's Word, and when that happens the results are not going to be good.

Most of you are probably responding much as I did – to wit, by pointing out correlation does not equal causation. While there is some evidence that higher rates of religiosity can be paired against lower rates of suicide, this could be explained in a number of ways. For example, regular church attendees may have a better support network (although that isn’t always true). It’s also possible that people who die by suicide are assigned a more nebulous cause of death in religious communities, so as not to offend surviving family members or perhaps even to allow for preferred funerary rites and burial.

At any rate, the idea that suicide has truly gone up, along with a somehow-related drop on religious observance, is so far from proven that WDBS should have his mouth washed out with soap for spreading potential falsehoods.

A self-serving interpretation of statistics is the least of this article’s problems, however; it also suffers from being all at once condescending and offensive and dumb as a sack of hammers.

I personally believe anyone who sets out to write an article on such sensitive topics as suicide should try for at least some token compassion and nuance.

WDBS couldn’t be assed to do that, and instead used the article in part as a platform to further his anti-choice agenda:

You see, God places a very high value on all life. In fact, in the Law of Moses the penalty was death for even accidentally killing an unborn child. In Exodus 21:22-25 we read this.....

If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

Setting aside for a moment that the above passage is notoriously ambiguous as to whether abortion is murder or merely a finable offense, what the hell is that even doing in an article on suicide? ‘Hey, look, even accidentally killing someone is murder, so if you kill yourself, you’re totally boned.’ Charming.

It’s one thing to say that the Bible condemns murder and that suicide is self-murder, both of which are true, but quite another to recommend the following as a viable course of action for people suffering from suicidal ideation:

But are there people out there who are incredibly depressed and who feel that life is no longer worth living?

Of course.

But they are wrong.

Life is worth living. In John 10:10, Jesus said that He came in order that we "may have life, and have it to the full."

Having a relationship with God and living for Him will give a person more meaning and purpose to life than they could have ever imagined that they could have. When you become a Christian, God can replace your pain and depression with joy and passion. If you let Him, He will take away your loneliness and fill you up with love.

You’ll note, of course, that he assumes sufferers are non-Christian.

Fundie recommendations aren’t nearly so glib and self-assured with regard to people who have, for example, lost limbs or suffered spinal cord injuries – at least not usually. It’s only with unseen disabilities that they ‘get their smug on’ and start hammering out offensive, simpering advice like the crap reproduced above.

If WDBS were serious, and not merely looking for new and exciting ways to shame his readers, he would have pointed a few things out: The Bible recognizes a) that depression is real, b) that depression isn’t necessarily the fault of the individual, and c) that depression should be treated by the best means available.

DEPRESSION IS REAL

Depression is a recurring theme in the Psalms of Lament, which are traditionally attributed to David. Reading these Psalms could help someone develop the vocabulary she needs to better express her thoughts.

IT’S NOT YOUR FAULT

Job’s situational depression stemmed from the events taking place in his life, and those events were in no way related to his character. His three friends offered cold comfort by way of haring after the imagined sins of Job, and they were roundly criticized for it at the end of the book by no less than God itself.

After the LORD had spoken these words to Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite: “My anger burns against you and against your two friends, for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has. – Job 42:7

DEPRESSION SHOULD BE TREATED

Being able to discuss depression with an expanded vocabulary isn’t enough, however; one may also seek treatment for it. The Bible recognizes the existence of depression, and even counsels people to take medicinal wine as treatment.

Give strong drink to the one who is perishing, and wine to those in bitter distress; let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more. – Proverbs 31:6-7

We have better tools than our Bronze Age ancestors, and so we should use them. Our forebears almost certainly would have done the same if they could.

Concerning those who serve God, and their characters, the Bible says…

A bruised reed he will not break, and a faintly burning wick he will not quench; he will faithfully bring forth justice. – Isaiah 42:3 (Barnes’ Notes point out this verse has been alternatively applied to Isaiah, Cyrus, or the Messiah.)

WDBS also failed to mention that depression can have purely physical causes (e.g., post-partum depression).

After releasing his article into the wild, WDBS received several troubling responses. There were a few days of turn-around between when the responses went up and when WDBS deigned to answer his readers’ concerns.

For example, a reader named Linda posted the following on April 12:

I beli[e]ve Christ is my salvation, However the life [l]iving in this world just isn;t worth it anymore. i have no happiness here. I believe in god’s love that even if I take my life he will not turn me away. I try to reach out to others but people these days just don’t have the time. The community I live in is so different, Im such an outsider.

Of course WDBS isn’t responsible for what strangers do, but I can’t help but to think he would have received a different response if he has written a more in-depth and compassionate article.

As it was, on April 16, he answered Linda:

What is causing you so much pain?

Linda never wrote back.

On May 9th, Kim wrote…

I don’t think people want to die, I just don’t want to live in this pain anymore, I am a supposedly a devote Christian, but the pain of depression is unbearable. My son is a drug addict and tells me everyday it is my fault his father left us. What could be worse than knowing you failed as a mother, I am not afraid to die, I can no longer stand the heartbreak of living.

On May 13, WDBS responded…

Please do not give up. I know that it is hard. But you did not fail as a mother. And whatever happened in the past can be turned around with God.

As a Christian, you can have the ultimate happy ending. God has forgiven your sins and has given you eternal life. You are going to get to live forever.

Please hang in there. Find some people at your church that you an talk to about all of this. That is a huge thing that you need right now – someone that you can talk to.

He then posted his e-mail address and offered a sympathetic ear – which would be good, were it not tied up with all the guilt-tripping and shaming and shallow pontificating he’d done earlier.

Kim never wrote back.

On June 16th, Roy wrote…

I am in poor health caring for my 70 yr. old wife who is disabled with advanced Parkinson’ & early dementia. We have lost everything & live an old house that is in deplorable condition. I cannot kill myself because she has no one to care for her. But I am tempted to do so, the thought goes through my mind every few minutes all day. I cry out to God one minute & curse Him the next. I am going to hell anyway so what difference does a few months or years make.

Ten days later, WDBS responded…

You do not have to go to hell. There is hope for you and your wife. You both can have the ultimate happy ending if you will only reach out for God. Please read this article….whatdoesthebiblesayabout.com

Roy never wrote back.

I think people who write seriously about sensitive issues implicitly accept a related duty to provide at least some access to resources through links or telephone numbers so readers can have multiple entry points into necessary services rather than just a single rickety entry-point as offered through an article’s comment section. WDBS didn’t leave his readers with any such tools, however; he only inflicted his own advice on them then dropped in once every few days to read new comments.

That kind of irresponsibility is all too common – not just among fundies, mind you, but high profile fundies are often guilty of it.

RESOURCES

*** Suicide: Read This First

*** Suicide Hotlines – US and International

*** Canadian Association for Suicide Prevention[\url]

*** The Christopher and Dana Reeve Foundation Paralysis Resource Center Suicide Hotlines List (Including for veterans)

[Rosa]

I love you.

Also I love that you troll the web looking for FJ fodder.

[valsa]

Sometimes I read things like this and I feel sad because, when it comes to mental illness, it feels like we really haven't come all that far away from drilling holes into people's heads to let the "bad spirits" out.

[mebeforee]

I have trouble getting past the idea that any killing, even accidental, is murder... for which the punishment is death. How can the punishment be carried out without turning the executioner into a murderer, also? It makes no sense at all to me. Does the action of execution somehow not fall under the responsibility of the person carrying it out? Or of the judge that sentenced the criminal? God isn't the one sitting in the court making the call, how can they ever know with certainty that the sentence of death isn't murder itself?

[emmiedahl]

Good review. I also appreciate all the FJers out there finding new nonsense to repudiate.

A priest once told me that suicide is not a ticket to hell because the person doing it is not of sound mind. That may not be in the Bible, but it is common sense. For Heaven's sake already. We don't hold people accountable for things that are beyond their control.

If someone is thinking about suicide and they decide against it because they are afraid of Hell, then... I guess I am glad... but I hope they get help so life is more bearable.

I think the religious interpretation of mental illness contributes to suicide. I mean, depression is not *the* most painful illness, yet it can be the most devastating over the long term because so many people think it is their fault or have religious objections to getting treatment.

[Olivia]

A priest once told me that suicide is not a ticket to hell because the person doing it is not of sound mind. That may not be in the Bible, but it is common sense. For Heaven's sake already. We don't hold people accountable for things that are beyond their control.

Yeah, that's what I was taught too. There's no verse in the Bible, as far as I can tell, that supports the notion those who commit suicide go to hell.

But I'm not so sure about the final destination of those who put words in God's mouth, especially such hurtful ones.

[lovelyinblack]

One of my friends commited suicide over the Holidays and no shes not in hell!! These people are awful... just awful! There is NO verse in the Bible that says suicide is a one-way ticket to hell!

[Alecto]

Yeah, that's what I was taught too. There's no verse in the Bible, as far as I can tell, that supports the notion those who commit suicide go to hell.

But I'm not so sure about the final destination of those who put words in God's mouth, especially such hurtful ones.

A friend of mine is a devout Catholic, as were his parents. His mother suffered from extreme schizophrenia. She spent most of his life hospitalized until she finally committed suicide when he was 25. The priest who oversaw her funeral mass told him and his family that his mother would not go to hell any more than someone who died of cancer goes to hell. Her suicide, like anyone suffering from a mental illness, was simply death as a consequence of her disease. Like with cancer, some people are able to recover and we should do everything we can to help those who are sick and get them the treatment to make them better, however in the end, sometimes there is no cure.

[Kitten]

life for a life vs thou shalt not kill?

Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."

Note also that any one of his possessions which a man vows as doomed to the Lord, whether it is a human being or an animal, or a hereditary field, shall be neither sold nor ransomed; everything that is thus doomed becomes most sacred to the Lord. All human beings that are doomed lose the right to be redeemed; they must be put to death.

The Bible is rife with contradictions. Make of it what you will (which is why it is impossible to use the Bible as a black and white guide to life, no matter how hard you try or what kind of justifications you pull out of your ass thin air).

[dirtyhippiegirl]

This could be totally off-topic but I've always wondered: how does the command to not murder differentiate between suicide and killings made in the name of war or capital punishment? Why is suicide considered self-murder but death in war or by capital punishment considered "killing?" The only thing that I can think of is that, or so I believe?, the Bible makes references to capital punishment and war as acceptable ways of killing people. Yet the Bible doesn't seem to refer to suicide at all?

[deelaem]

One of the most misunderstood things about mental illness is that many forms of it are potentially fatal. If a person who is seriously mentally ill commits suicide, then that person died from their illness. It is a brain disease, not a disease of character. When your brain doesn't work right, you can't expect it to reason out why suicide isn't a good idea unless you're receiving support and treatment. It's akin to saying that it's the fault of a heart disease patient if their heart gives out.

Mental health parity is supposed to be law here in my state (NC), but that is so far from the truth as to be ridiculous. As far as I can tell,there's no recourse for it, either.

[dirtyhippiegirl]

One of the most misunderstood things about mental illness is that many forms of it are potentially fatal. If a person who is seriously mentally ill commits suicide, then that person died from their illness. It is a brain disease, not a disease of character. When your brain doesn't work right, you can't expect it to reason out why suicide isn't a good idea unless you're receiving support and treatment. It's akin to saying that it's the fault of a heart disease patient if their heart gives out.

Mental health parity is supposed to be law here in my state (NC), but that is so far from the truth as to be ridiculous. As far as I can tell,there's no recourse for it, either.

As someone who has been in and out of hospitals and battled mental illness for over half of my life, I find this belief to be kind of...troubling to say the least. You're basically taking away any sort of self-agency that the mentally ill person might have and replacing it with the erroneous belief that mental illness is directly comparable to physical illness. But it's not. You simply cannot compare someone with, say, stage 4 pancreatic cancer with someone who has schizophrenia. One person WILL most likely die no matter what they do; the other person simply...won't. Treatment for mental illness is not actually as direct as the pharm companies or therapeutic community would have you believe -- hell, most of the time treatment for mental illness doesn't even beat out the placebo in studies of anti-depressants and mood-stabilizers.

Mental health parity should be a nation wide thing by now because of legislation but it's not, and that is a damned shame.

[duplessis3]

I disagree, dirtyhippiegirl. I think thechoices a mentally ill person makes are like the choices diabetics make. A person can choose to not follow medical advice, and sometimes the result of that is death.

I have chronic depression and I have agency in managing my illness. I didn't choose to be depressed.

[daharyn]

Um, what "choices," exactly, do diabetics make? That illness is attributable to a whole range of factors--it's far more complex than me choosing to have a cupcake for dessert...! You can have two people go through life and make the same choices, and one will end up in medical state X and another in medical state Y. So let's avoid blame wherever possible.

Suicide is a decision that can be made when a person is of sound mind. I think it generally comes about as the result of mental illness, but I know that sometimes it doesn't, and I would never deprive a person of that choice. To do so would be unethical. I'd hope like hell they didn't choose to die, and I'd tell them so, and I'd be there for them however they needed it. But in the end, I respect everyone's right to deal with their life as they see fit. None of us asked to be born. We should have the right to die if we want to.

[Burris]

I disagree, dirtyhippiegirl. I think thechoices a mentally ill person makes are like the choices diabetics make. A person can choose to not follow medical advice, and sometimes the result of that is death.

I have chronic depression and I have agency in managing my illness. I didn't choose to be depressed.

I think this is an important distinction. Even as is the case with physical illness, a person with mental illness still has agency and can make choices about management - but the illness itself isn't a choice. It seems to me there's a fine line between recognizing that someone with a mental illness may occasionally find herself in a state where her decision-making process has been impacted, and saying that all people with mental illnesses are forever unequipped to make their own choices without having to "show their work" either to family members or to mental health professionals.

(The latter would be roughly akin to arguing that people who sleep at night are ill-equipped to operate heavy machinery by day simply because they sometimes experience unconsciousness.)

[deelaem]

As someone who has been in and out of hospitals and battled mental illness for over half of my life, I find this belief to be kind of...troubling to say the least. You're basically taking away any sort of self-agency that the mentally ill person might have and replacing it with the erroneous belief that mental illness is directly comparable to physical illness. But it's not. You simply cannot compare someone with, say, stage 4 pancreatic cancer with someone who has schizophrenia. One person WILL most likely die no matter what they do; the other person simply...won't. Treatment for mental illness is not actually as direct as the pharm companies or therapeutic community would have you believe -- hell, most of the time treatment for mental illness doesn't even beat out the placebo in studies of anti-depressants and mood-stabilizers.

Mental health parity should be a nation wide thing by now because of legislation but it's not, and that is a damned shame.

Ok, I'm going to do something I have never done on this board, and that's reveal some private information about my family. I have an adult son with schizophrenia. And when he is in full psychosis, you better believe that I can compare him to a Stage 4 cancer patient. When he is that ill, he is completely vulnerable to all kinds of harm, including self-harm. You don't know hell on earth till you've had to pry a knife out of your child's hands to prevent him from disemboweling himself to get the demons out. And if I hadn't fought, yelled, nagged and threatened I would never have gotten him adequate treatment and he most likely would be dead right now. Thankfully, he's in a good place now and living independently. But schizophrenia never goes away, he is in remission only. Just like cancer. I live with this knowledge every day of my life. If he had a serious physical illness, I would not have had to threaten lawsuits to get him care and treatment. And the medication he is on right now is quite literally saving his life! It is not a placebo effect, and I'm not sure where you got that kind of information. So I stand by what I said.

ETA - When in a psychotic state, my son is completely unable to make good decisions for himself. Not all mental illness is depression.

[Alecto]

Not to mention there is a vicious cycle with severe mental illness. A lot of times patients with severe bi-polar or schizophrenia stop taking their medication when they are medicated and stable, because they don't like how the medication makes them feel, or they think they are just fine.

[dirtyhippiegirl]

Ok, I'm going to do something I have never done on this board, and that's reveal some private information about my family. I have an adult son with schizophrenia. And when he is in full psychosis, you better believe that I can compare him to a Stage 4 cancer patient. When he is that ill, he is completely vulnerable to all kinds of harm, including self-harm. You don't know hell on earth till you've had to pry a knife out of your child's hands to prevent him from disemboweling himself to get the demons out. And if I hadn't fought, yelled, nagged and threatened I would never have gotten him adequate treatment and he most likely would be dead right now. Thankfully, he's in a good place now and living independently. But schizophrenia never goes away, he is in remission only. Just like cancer. I live with this knowledge every day of my life. If he had a serious physical illness, I would not have had to threaten lawsuits to get him care and treatment. And the medication he is on right now is quite literally saving his life! It is not a placebo effect, and I'm not sure where you got that kind of information. So I stand by what I said.

ETA - When in a psychotic state, my son is completely unable to make good decisions for himself. Not all mental illness is depression.

Ah hah! I can play this game. I was hospitalized over 30 times between the ages of 13-23. I've had two heart attacks due to anorexia. I've had major surgery twice due to self-injury -- on top of routinely needing several hundred stitches per self-harming episode. I've been physically and chemically restrained on numerous occasions.

I have made poor choices myself. Often, I've been hospitalized with persons who made poor choices. Making poor choices does not mean that you have control in *having* the illness. But it does mean that you need to gain control in managing your illness.

I seriously doubt that many posters here will ever be able to actually know what it feels like to be seriously mentally ill. I have. I have been in that place where I couldn't make decisions for myself. The problem is "that place" tends to extend to every single decision that a mentally ill person makes. Suddenly you are not responsible for any decision because you are mentally ill.

[Ozzie]

I think the placebo effect is with SSRIs, which I've taken for depression. While I've been severely depressed and suicidal before, and I'd say that I had some agency in terms of being responsible for my actions, I maintain that for more than I'd like to admit there was a monster at the helm. That monster made it very, very easy to do irrational things that made the depression worse (Everyone hates you! The best is response is to just shut down and stop talking to everyone!) and very, very difficult to promote rational behaviors that made the depression better (Diet and exercise? Pfft! People just say that because they hate you). And NOW, somewhat tongue in cheek, it's much easier for me to admit that part of having a mental health problem means that my brain sometimes thinks things that don't make any sense. Since I otherwise trust my ability to ration well, this is hard to deal with.

Re: SSRIs, my analogy is that taking them is like going to the eye doc, where they whirl the different lenses in front of your eyes and ask you if things are clearer or more fuzzy. Except with SSRIs, you don't know which way it's going to go, and it takes weeks to be sure if you're getting clearer or fuzzier (and keep in mind, mental health problem?!?), and the main point of getting clearer isn't so you can take the stupid drugs the rest of your life, but so you can more clearly see your problems that are making your brain not make sense. And yeah, a lot of the time they are worthless and sometimes they're pointless, but I'm cool with taking my chances on something that might make my brain not be stupid. That's my $0.02, and I don't feel like fighting over it but now you have my unsolicited opinion. :)

[dirtyhippiegirl]

I think the placebo effect is with SSRIs, which I've taken for depression.

No, the placebo effect is not just with SSRIs.

[Ozzie]

Darn brain- I've only heard of the placebo effect (which is quite significant and interesting on its own) being roughly equal to the impacts of some SSRIs in certain studies, wasn't trying to imply that I was a Mighty Authority on all things pharmaceutical. Where else have you heard of this?

[deelaem]

Ah hah! I can play this game. I was hospitalized over 30 times between the ages of 13-23. I've had two heart attacks due to anorexia. I've had major surgery twice due to self-injury -- on top of routinely needing several hundred stitches per self-harming episode. I've been physically and chemically restrained on numerous occasions.

I have made poor choices myself. Often, I've been hospitalized with persons who made poor choices. Making poor choices does not mean that you have control in *having* the illness. But it does mean that you need to gain control in managing your illness.

I seriously doubt that many posters here will ever be able to actually know what it feels like to be seriously mentally ill. I have. I have been in that place where I couldn't make decisions for myself. The problem is "that place" tends to extend to every single decision that a mentally ill person makes. Suddenly you are not responsible for any decision because you are mentally ill.

Play this game??!! If that's what you think this is, then ok, you win. I'm not about to continue to argue with someone who has NO insight.

[dcmhejbl62]

There was an article in USA Today on Wednesday about the placebo effect with all kinds of treatments, including surgeries, sometimes being more effective than the treatment itself. Sorry I don't have more detail, I only skimmed it, but it was about unapproved stem cell treatments.

IMO, all but major depression is in a different category of mental illness than schizophrenia. There may be a variety of treatments, medical and non-medical, that can be effective for depression, depending on the person and the type of depression. Peple may be able to stabilize enough to get off their depression medicine and use cognitive techniques if it hits again. Maybe. Sometimes.

Schizophrenia is a category unto itself; crunchy as I am I could not imagine trying to "treat" it without medication and lots of medical oversight. People with schizophrenia are some of the bravest folks I know, that's rough stuff.

[Austin]

Play this game??!! If that's what you think this is, then ok, you win. I'm not about to continue to argue with someone who has NO insight.

What did I miss? I'm sorry, but I don't understand your response, dhg. . .

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

I've seen a lot of articles recently talking about how SSRIs are just a placebo, but based on my own experience, I just don't see how this could be. I've been on a LOT of different meds for my depression, 75% of which have been SSRIs, and the reason that I keep going off of them is because every single time, without fail, I experience what I call the "cotton effect" about 3 mths in. At first the meds work great to "dull" that feeling of depression, but pretty soon, they dull every other feeling too. I no longer even KNOW if I'm happy or depressed, excited or angry, etc. I start to lose interest in things, not because I'm too depressed to care (like during my depressive episodes) but because I simply can't arouse any sort of feeling other than "meh." I become placid but boring. The people close to me notice this too; for example, at first my partner will be happy that I'm on meds because I'm functional and easier to be around...but pretty soon he'll become concerned because I no longer seem like myself. So...can this really just be a placebo??