Irresponsible Assholes are Irresponsible

[emmiedahl]

I believe SSRI's have been extensively tested and found to be more effective than a placebo. That is, if I understand the process correctly, a legal standard that must be met before the FDA will approve a drug.

[Terrie]

I believe that in depression and SSRIs, it's not that SSRIs are a placebo effect, but that depression has a high rate of responding to placebos. However, SSRIs have been shown to create improvement in OCD which has an extremely LOW rate of respond to placebos.

[DamnPrecious]

I have Chronic Depression with Major Depressive Episodes (nervous breakdowns) with anxiety and panic disorder. Yes most days I want to end it, but not enough just to do it so i go to sleep. I've been medicated, in therapy, and prayer. Nothing is working. Science tells me "Oh, take this pill you'll be better" or "Take this therapy it helps." Religion tells me Jesus will take it away.

Neither have, and I'm really sick of people think that depression is just a case of the sadz. FUCK YOU. :evil:

[Austin]

I have Chronic Depression with Major Depressive Episodes (nervous breakdowns) with anxiety and panic disorder. Yes most days I want to end it, but not enough just to do it so i go to sleep. I've been medicated, in therapy, and prayer. Nothing is working. Science tells me "Oh, take this pill you'll be better" or "Take this therapy it helps." Religion tells me Jesus will take it away.

Neither have, and I'm really sick of people think that depression is just a case of the sadz. FUCK YOU. :evil:

My heart goes out to you. . .

[kb2]

OK, just to throw another comment to the SSRI thing...

Antidepressants have a statistically significant success rate in decreasing "very severe" depression for but more of a meh success rate in decreasing "mild" depression.

http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/303/1/47

So there are a lot of studies that show antidepressants are no better than placebo, and others that do find a good effect. It depends.

Treatment for mental illness may be complicated, insufficient, or practically nonexistent in many cases, but saying "Just snap out of it," or "Just pray it away," to every symptom of mental illness is harmful.

ETA: I'm sorry DamnPrecious.

[mirele]

I've seen a lot of articles recently talking about how SSRIs are just a placebo, but based on my own experience, I just don't see how this could be. I've been on a LOT of different meds for my depression, 75% of which have been SSRIs, and the reason that I keep going off of them is because every single time, without fail, I experience what I call the "cotton effect" about 3 mths in. At first the meds work great to "dull" that feeling of depression, but pretty soon, they dull every other feeling too. I no longer even KNOW if I'm happy or depressed, excited or angry, etc. I start to lose interest in things, not because I'm too depressed to care (like during my depressive episodes) but because I simply can't arouse any sort of feeling other than "meh." I become placid but boring. The people close to me notice this too; for example, at first my partner will be happy that I'm on meds because I'm functional and easier to be around...but pretty soon he'll become concerned because I no longer seem like myself. So...can this really just be a placebo??

SSRIs. Not a placebo. Because when I stopped taking mine, I got progressively worse and worse and worse until I ended up in the hospital. Even after I got out of the hospital I wasn't totally convinced, until an incident about 2003 convinced me that I Had To Take Those Damned Pills Whether I Liked It Or Not. So I take them religiously, every morning. Yeah, there's something of a damping down, but it's a fuckton better than feeling so awful I want to run into a tree or take a pair of embroidery scissors and rip out a few veins...

[mirele]

I have Chronic Depression with Major Depressive Episodes (nervous breakdowns) with anxiety and panic disorder. Yes most days I want to end it, but not enough just to do it so i go to sleep. I've been medicated, in therapy, and prayer. Nothing is working. Science tells me "Oh, take this pill you'll be better" or "Take this therapy it helps." Religion tells me Jesus will take it away.

Neither have, and I'm really sick of people think that depression is just a case of the sadz. FUCK YOU. :evil:

THIS. Jeez, you've got my diagnosis. And no, prayer and religious devotion willl not take it away.

Just had to throw these guys in because I love the idea of this smilie:

:character-beavisbutthead:

[DamnPrecious]

Thanks guys, this subject gets mereally hyped up because I went to a church camp when I was 17, and they told me because they found out I was on anti-depressants and told me that I wasn't a true Christian because if I was I wouldn't be on them.

http://www.wilds.org/

[Letgo]

Thanks guys, this subject gets mereally hyped up because I went to a church camp when I was 17, and they told me because they found out I was on anti-depressants and told me that I wasn't a true Christian because if I was I wouldn't be on them.

Why, why, why do some people think one cannot be a Christian if the person does X? I have read articles discounting depression, schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder, and so on, because they are all really just evidence of a lack of faith and trust in God or some such nonsense. Other organs have diseases, why can't the brain?

I am so sorry for those of you going through mental illnesses. You are all in my prayers.

[Burris]

Why, why, why do some people think one cannot be a Christian if the person does X? I have read articles discounting depression, schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder, and so on, because they are all really just evidence of a lack of faith and trust in God or some such nonsense. Other organs have diseases, why can't the brain?

Hehe. Each group (or person) they exclude from among the universal church body is one less for them to compete with when their god opens Thunderdome and makes assured salvation the prize in a rule-free blood-sport.

Two men enter. One man leaves. That's how their god rolls.

[Jamanda]

My two cents:

I take SSRI's for anxiety. For me they work, and I'd say thats because my underlying problem, the reason I have anxiety, is because I have low levels of seratonin. If thats not what's causing an individuals condition, then I think the SSRI would have a placebo effect, or only a short term benefit.

I think the we have a long way to go to understanding the brain and mental illness, and as a result, we are currently unable to determine the cause (and therefore develop appropriate treatments) for many of the illnesses and their debilitating symptoms. Its often quite clear there is something wrong, but not always why. I can see why people who have never suffered a mental illness can be so quick to dismiss it, its not like something that will show up on a blood test or a scan and we can say "here, this is your disease, this is what makes you sick". Instead, all that can be seen are the symptoms, and sometimes those are not obvious to anyone outside the sufferers mind.

I guess in some ways its like the way people used to react in less medically advanced times to viruses and other pathogens, attributing it to demons or misbehaviour on the part of the afflicted.

Sometimes, I have myself wondered if I am really 'sick' or just different? At what point does it stop being a 'different personality or way of thinking' and become a 'mental illness'?

I'd like to stress there are very clearly those who suffer tremendously from what can only be described as a mental illness. However, I do leave room for the fact that there may also be people who are being subjected to treatment for symptoms of what may really just be personality differences. (oh the world and its shades of grey)

[SpicyCat]

I think the placebo effect is with SSRIs, which I've taken for depression. While I've been severely depressed and suicidal before, and I'd say that I had some agency in terms of being responsible for my actions, I maintain that for more than I'd like to admit there was a monster at the helm. That monster made it very, very easy to do irrational things that made the depression worse (Everyone hates you! The best is response is to just shut down and stop talking to everyone!) and very, very difficult to promote rational behaviors that made the depression better (Diet and exercise? Pfft! People just say that because they hate you). And NOW, somewhat tongue in cheek, it's much easier for me to admit that part of having a mental health problem means that my brain sometimes thinks things that don't make any sense. Since I otherwise trust my ability to ration well, this is hard to deal with.

A freaking Men. It is the HARDEST thing to explain to someone who's never been depressed that YOU aren't really in control, that suddenly things that you might never even normally consider sound like absolutely the best decision, just because this monster called "depression" has taken over. If they've never been there, they just don't ever really seem to get it.

Placebo effect, real effect, who cares if it makes you better. Personally, I like it a lot more when the monster is gone.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

If each of us had a nickel for every time we'd been told to "snap out of it" or "pull it together" or "think about how good you have it", and we pooled them together, we probably wouldn't have to worry about the recession. ;p

[SinInTheCamp]

My personal favorite is "Why can't you just be happy?".

[misslady]

First of all, Burris, I love you for using "wont" correctly :)

On topic, this discussion reminded me of this article from the May 30, 2011 New Yorker, which discusses mental illness and the difficulties of making people aware of their illness (link to the abstract):

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011 ... _fact_aviv

"She refused all psychiatric medication, because she believed her diagnosis (bipolar disorder with psychosis) was a mistake."

[JesusFightClub]

This is a fascinating discussion. People are making really good points on both sides. It is IMO that mental illness is a spectrum. At some points of the spectrum, like deelam said, you can't make proper decisions because you're delusional.

I am bipolar. Most of the time unmedicated I'm just really really chatty and impulsive, which I like, personally. It's fun :). When I'm depressed however, I am rarely suicidal but I do experience auditory and visual hallucinations. Everything takes on strange and evil meanings. I see repeated patterns in things that happen and it's terrifying. The Scottish side of my family say I'm "fey" the English side say "florid imagination" and "delusions". The doctors say "medication" ;)

When I am manic I can make a decision. It might be a weird one, but I didn't lose agency. When I'm depressed sometimes my detachment from reality is such that I lose agency. What is me there stopped being even "hyper me" but me in an alternate place.

This is almost impossible to explain and I probably sound like a total weirdo :oops: but mental illness, which I accept I suffer from, is on a spectrum. Just because someone has a certain diagnosis doesn't mean that they are always incapable of making a reasoned decision. However, sometimes the decision isn't made in a good place and should be overruled for the sake of that person.

[Guest Anonymous]

If each of us had a nickel for every time we'd been told to "snap out of it" or "pull it together" or "think about how good you have it", and we pooled them together, we probably wouldn't have to worry about the recession. ;p

We could all avoid honest labor for the rest of our lives.