More anti-vaxers

[valsa]

I don't think that's the points s/he's trying to make. It boils down to $$$$$. We have money for wars, but not for outliers such as dcm''s children. We have money for MRIs and other expensive tests, but not for dcm's children. We have $$$$ for the last 6 months of life, but not for dcm''s children. As a society, we've made choices, and those choices don't include the outliers: dcm''s children.

No offense but I have no idea how what she or I said has anything to do with what you just said.

[mirele]

Which is why I was told to get the vaccinations since I would be working with kids. Yeah, they sometimes bite and/or drool.

I worked in the quality assurance department for a medical device manufacturer and we got back items that had been in people's bodies and had failed. And although we gave them instructions on how to sterilize the things before sending them back, OMG what we'd get back in baggies was akin to "we took it out of Mrs. X's body and just dropped it into the Ziploc." We all had Hep B vaccines.

(That was also the only place I've worked where I was given a drug test.)

[GenerationCedarchip]

We had a pertussis outbreak in my community and all of the nonvaxed kids were so sick they were in the hospital. It's pretty serious, not something that kids just run around with.

I contracted pertussis when I was in college, and it was a miserable experience. Think coughing so hard that you break your own ribs. I've heard anti-vaxers describe it as being like a really bad cold or possibly bronchitis, and I just cringe.

[pomology]

Perhaps I'm not understanding what you're saying but it sounds like you think pro-vax people think everyone should be vaccinated. I don't know anybody who thinks that children who have bad had reactions from vaccinations should be vaccinated. Herd immunity protects those exact children.

I know, right?

[Witsec1]

Just a heads up llv is a sock puppet of lilwriter85. Their other sock is autumnchild.

That's weird.

[gustava]

No offense but I have no idea how what she or I said has anything to do with what you just said.

No offense taken. What I though dcm was saying is that most people/children do well with any given vaccine, but there are some who don't (outliers). My response was that society makes a decision as to what's important, based on $$$$. For example, we have spent billions of dollars on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and we as a society have deemed that expenditure to be of value. By contrast, we don't spend billion of dollars to determine why dcm's child (an outlier), has an unfortunate reaction to the vaccine which works well with most children. I was trying to agree with her that "we are pitting the health of one population against that of another, and making value decisions as to who deserves protection." I was neither agreeing nor disagreeing with your point, as I'm still thinking it through. Hope that helps.

[llv]

So llv is Gojira?

Yeah, I thought llv stank of the worst kind of libertarianism. I like how he characterised the indigenous New Word people as bringing it all on themselves. Don't call yourself a liberal, own up to your title.

Basically, he's so afraid of 'jabs' (it's not a fucking epi-pen, do some research!) and his own superhuman immunity immune system that would be compromised by a vaccine (Can you imagine what the disease would do to it? Vaccines are given under controlled conditions!) that he's cool with children dying/ having life-long health problems. He feels sorry for them of course, but not as sorry as he feels for himself when the science/ reality based people gang up on him. What's a little blindness/ paralysis compared with his hurt feewings? Irresponsibility is his right, dammit! Bet he wants to abolish speed limits, too.

I'm not Gojira (but perhaps you're being sarcastic).

The Native Americans didn't bring it upon themselves; I'm just saying it was beyond their control. Their immune systems were not equipped to handle such a foreign virus, which probably bore no resemblance to anything they'd had yet.

Jabs is a slang term for vaccine, immunisation, etc etc. UK slang so maybe you are not familiar with it??

I like how everyone says "hey it's nice to vaccinate yourself for herd immunity and you should do it", but if I don't vaccinate myself, it's a "crime"? We aren't talking the opposite of altruism; the action is precisely the inaction. I still can't figure out why the hell you guys think it's MY job to protect you from disease. Use your own immune systems guys. :roll:

eta: I'm also NOT a sock puppet or a troll. I have no idea where you are getting this from.

[Witsec1]

Oh hai, lilwriter85. I think you need to study up on biology some more, 'cause yer not gettin' the herd immunity thing yet. Try hard - I'm sure you can get your head around if you really really try. Hint: It's not me or most of the people here you are threatening by non-vaxing. It's your grandkids. There's a good chance your hypothetical daughters will not have any immunity to common childhood diseases to pass on in their breast milk. Their babies will be like the Native Americans in 1492.

[Witsec1]

[

eta: I'm also NOT a sock puppet or a troll. I have no idea where you are getting this from.

Your IP address.

[llv]

Your IP address.

My IP address says I'm in Michigan sometimes. Or in Texas. Or North Carolina.

I'm actually in Washington, and use satellite internet that likes to give me weird IP addresses. On another forum I got a message saying they had 'connected' me to 30 other active users, some of which I have actually talked to and I assure you they are not me.

I might have weird views and be slightly crazy according to you, but I am neither a troll nor a sock puppet.

[Witsec1]

OK. Can you define in your own words, what herd immunity is and how it works?

[llv]

OK. Can you define in your own words, what herd immunity is and how it works?

Herd immunity is the collective resistance of a population to communicable disease. Natural immunity, e.g. fighting off a virus (and hence producing antibodies) or Artificial immunity (Jabs/Vaccines) both. When less people are sick, there's less spread of the virus. The virus doesn't have a host to spread it round.

I'm not a professor and it's been years since I took biology. :? Please don't wail on me. ;)

[Witsec1]

And who does herd immunity protect?

[keeperrox]

My IP address says I'm in Michigan sometimes. Or in Texas. Or North Carolina.

I'm actually in Washington, and use satellite internet that likes to give me weird IP addresses. On another forum I got a message saying they had 'connected' me to 30 other active users, some of which I have actually talked to and I assure you they are not me.

I might have weird views and be slightly crazy according to you, but I am neither a troll nor a sock puppet.

So, then you're saying that Alecto is lying to us?

[valsa]

No offense taken. What I though dcm was saying is that most people/children do well with any given vaccine, but there are some who don't (outliers). My response was that society makes a decision as to what's important, based on $$$$. For example, we have spent billions of dollars on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and we as a society have deemed that expenditure to be of value. By contrast, we don't spend billion of dollars to determine why dcm's child (an outlier), has an unfortunate reaction to the vaccine which works well with most children. I was trying to agree with her that "we are pitting the health of one population against that of another, and making value decisions as to who deserves protection." I was neither agreeing nor disagreeing with your point, as I'm still thinking it through. Hope that helps.

That's (obviously) not what I understood her to be saying but even if it was what she was saying, I'm not sure I agree. I'm just not sure figuring out why some kids have reactions should be a top priority (though I do think that it should rate over crap wars) Lots of people don't do well with lots of medications. I'm allergic to certain antibiotics and I don't think lots of money should be sunk into finding out why.

I'd prefer that any extra money be spent on educating the public on why they should vaccinate (and not listen to dumbass actresses/underwear models/whatever the hell Jenny M. is famous for, other than being nuts), because that not only protect kids who can't vaccinate due to bad reactions but also kids who are too young or immunocompromised.

[valsa]

I still can't figure out why the hell you guys think it's MY job to protect you from disease.

For the same reason I think it's your job to not fire a gun into a crowd or drive a car on a busy road while drunk.

Use your own immune systems guys

Go fuck yourself, whoever you are. I'm a healthy young adult- I'm not going to be the one who dies from these diseases. It's going to be the kids, the old, and the sick. You're not a libertarian, you're a heartless bastard. Also, vaccinations are not going to hurt you but the diseases they protect against could kill innocent people.

[Renting with Raggles]

We aren't talking the opposite of altruism; the action is precisely the inaction.

What does this even mean? We use logic based on the realities of planet Earth, not the libertarian bizarro-universe.

llv wrote:

I still can't figure out why the hell you guys think it's MY job to protect you from disease.

For the same reason I think it's your job to not fire a gun into a crowd or drive a car on a busy road while drunk.

Cheers to valsa. Humans have a collective responsibility to matters of health and hygiene when these affect other people. llv can piss in his own well if he likes, not the public drinking fountain.

[gustava]

That's (obviously) not what I understood her to be saying but even if it was what she was saying, I'm not sure I agree. I'm just not sure figuring out why some kids have reactions should be a top priority (though I do think that it should rate over crap wars) Lots of people don't do well with lots of medications. I'm allergic to certain antibiotics and I don't think lots of money should be sunk into finding out why.

I'd prefer that any extra money be spent on educating the public on why they should vaccinate (and not listen to dumbass actresses/underwear models/whatever the hell Jenny M. is famous for, other than being nuts), because that not only protect kids who can't vaccinate due to bad reactions but also kids who are too young or immunocompromised.

Whether we agree or disagree, I commend the two of us for the civility of our exchanges. OK, so humility is not my strong suit.

[Austin]

Although the vaccine/autism link has been disproven, I think there will always be those who were/are so invested in this movement that they will never give it up. Emerson's foolish consistency and all that. They will continue to believe that anecdata is the same thing as evidence and refuse to consider anything else. And then there are others who believe their childen are such special snowflakes and that they have no obligaton to the rest of society and all of the other children and adults who cannot be vaccinated.

Both groups will always be among us. :roll:

[llv]

So, then you're saying that Alecto is lying to us?

I'm saying that I'm not these other people. This has happened to me before and I'm pretty sure I cannot cohabit multiple bodies in multiple parts of the country at once. :roll:

I mean that not doing something nice is not the same as doing something bad. It's neutral.

I don't drive while drunk or fire guns into crowds. I just don't get jabs. It's a fucking health decision. Yes, herd immunity offers some "protection" so-to-speak, but I believe that I can choose to buy out of vaccination and not be branded a criminal of humanity or a murderer. "You have the opportunity to do something good which carries a small risk".... that's what vaccines are. And when people say "No thanks, I'd rather not", you hound them and tell them they are bad people and in essence 'going to hell' in the nonreligious sense.

Right, humans have a collective responsibility to help others, but they also have the right to take care of themselves in the best way they know possible. For me, that is staying away from vaccines. I don't trust the ingredients. I don't want to be subject to that. I want to know more before I do something like that to my body.

Go fuck yourself, whoever you are. I'm a healthy young adult- I'm not going to be the one who dies from these diseases. It's going to be the kids, the old, and the sick. You're not a libertarian, you're a heartless bastard. Also, vaccinations are not going to hurt you but the diseases they protect against could kill innocent people.

http://vaers.hhs.gov/index Go tell that to the thousands of vaccine-injured individuals across the United States.

I do not give my informed consent to be vaccinated and this is not a moral concern, it is a health concern. I am confident in my decision at the present time and do not characterise myself as a heartless bastard for my personal health decisions.

[lovefromgirl]

Fine, then. We'll let the families of those to whom you spread vaccine-preventable illnesses be the judge of that.

[valsa]

Whether we agree or disagree, I commend the two of us for the civility of our exchanges. OK, so humility is not my strong suit.

Heh, not my strong suit either. I think it's definitely a good thing to occasionally agree to disagree... as long as one of the people involved in the conversation isn't a raging idioholic (not you)

http://vaers.hhs.gov/index Go tell that to the thousands of vaccine-injured individuals across the United States.

I do not give my informed consent to be vaccinated and this is not a moral concern, it is a health concern. I am confident in my decision at the present time and do not characterise myself as a heartless bastard for my personal health decisions.

Dumbass, I didn't say vaccines wouldn't hurt anyone- I said they would hurt you. If your immune system is a super special awesome as you claim it is, vaccines won't hurt you. And if it isn't as super special awesome as you claim, stop acting as if you not getting sick has anything to do with your body, instead of having everything to do with luck and you leeching off the immunity of others. And you are a heartless bastard because you are benefiting from the immunity of others without contributing to that overall immunity, despite the fact you apparently have no risk factors preventing you from contributing. You are essentially using public roads, education, fire and police services, etc without paying the taxes that fund them. You take without contributing and put other’s lives at risk, for no reason. You are heartless. And, as I said before, if everyone acted like you do, there would be no herd immunity to protect you or your children or your parents from getting sick.

[shesinsane]

Although the vaccine/autism link has been disproven, I think there will always be those who were/are so invested in this movement that they will never give it up. Emerson's foolish consistency and all that. They will continue to believe that anecdata is the same thing as evidence and refuse to consider anything else. And then there are others who believe their childen are such special snowflakes and that they have no obligaton to the rest of society and all of the other children and adults who cannot be vaccinated.

Both groups will always be among us. :roll:

Eh, their numbers will go down slightly when someone dies from mumps, measles, polio, or any of those other diseases they chose not vaccinate themselves against. Every now and again the news mentions someone who traveled elsewhere in the world, brought back an illness to the US and spread it to their unvaccinated community. Eventually, that will happen to the extent a shocking number of people die and the survivors start vaccinating,

[Curious]

I wonder how these people will feel when their child or grandchild comes down with one of these preventable illnesses. I'm not talking chicken pox, which many of us survived just fine as kids before the vaccine and they even had chicken pox parties so you'd get them as a kid.

I'm talking measles, mumps etc.

I got the mumps as an adult. I've been vaxed, but apparently I missed a booster at some point (which if my college had asked for vaccine records I would have discovered) ;)

I was working at a fast food restaurant with a kids playland (aka disease central) at the time. The Dr. guessed I probably caught it there from an unvaxed kiddo since that is about the only way I would have been exposed to the mumps.

When it started I thought I was just coming down with a sinus infection or a cold because my ear hurt. I worked for a day or two and then one day I went in and I felt like total crap, but it was a Saturday so I knew they'd need me. My manager looked at me and said "did you know the whole side of your face is really swollen?" and sent me to the ER.

Imagine how many people *I* exposed working in a fast food restaurant before I *knew* I had the mumps.

Think about that one for a second when you don't think vaxxing is important.

BTW, the mumps SUCK. They are very, incredibly painful and I can't imagine anyone wanting their child to suffer through them. Fortunately, I didn't have any complications other than missing a couple weeks of work and college....oh yeah and the massive amounts of pain and not being able to eat because I couldn't open my mouth because my face was swollen so much. I could barely get a straw in my mouth.

[NurseNell]

When it started I thought I was just coming down with a sinus infection or a cold because my ear hurt. I worked for a day or two and then one day I went in and I felt like total crap, but it was a Saturday so I knew they'd need me. My manager looked at me and said "did you know the whole side of your face is really swollen?" and sent me to the ER.

Imagine how many people *I* exposed working in a fast food restaurant before I *knew* I had the mumps.

Think about that one for a second when you don't think vaxxing is important.

BTW, the mumps SUCK. They are very, incredibly painful and I can't imagine anyone wanting their child to suffer through them. Fortunately, I didn't have any complications other than missing a couple weeks of work and college....oh yeah and the massive amounts of pain and not being able to eat because I couldn't open my mouth because my face was swollen so much. I could barely get a straw in my mouth.

Plus Mumps makes teenaged boys and men sterile. We've had measles this year in Minnesota, including deaths. We had a major outbreak late 80's early 90's, lots of unimmunized kids died. This was in the Hmong immigrant community. It's hard now to find a Hmong kid who isn't up to date on their shots. I caught pertussis from an unimmunized student, I was a school nurse. I was very ill. The student's unimmunized 6 month old nephew died. I took care of a sailor who died of tetanus, painful, awful death. I had school mates who died of polio in the 1950's. My paternal grandmother lost 4 children to diptheria. She never got over those losses. This was between 1890 and 1910. My father survived because the doctor removed part of his soft palate so he could breathe. Yeah, immunizations are a bad thing. :angry-banghead: As we lose more and more herd immunity we will see more outbreaks. As for sanitation and hand washing, that has been a big help with food borne illnesses and things like Hepatitis A. With droplet and respiratory spread diseases, not as much. The best thing is still handwashing but it won't prevent all communicable diseases.