Can People Be Born Homosexual?

[formergothardite]

"Is he able, but not willing?

Then he is malevolent."

Really? Is there no other explanation than God has ill-will on us because he won't do anything about evil? Does a parent protect their child from every bad thing in life. Or do they let the child go through some tough situations so they can learn from it? Maybe its not the best thing for us to shield us from everything bad?

I would protect my small children from beign raped and tortured because there is nothing to learn from that that they can't learn another way. I must love my children more than God loves his.

[jericho]

You do play God when it comes to abortion. In fact, you think that your views supercede those of God's, if you consider the Old Testament a testimony of God.

It's okay to say you don't understand. I believe in God and I don't understand why bad things happen. In fact, I agree with you that we were probably created for the sheer joy of creation. After all, the Tanakh compares God to a parent, and I had children ultimately for the joy of creating and cultivating life. I believe that God is a loving parent, one who allows life to batter and bruise us at times, but one that will make it all good in the end. That's why I don't believe in Hell, by the way. The only way this horrible life makes sense is if there is something better in store for every single person God has created. I don't know what happens after we die, but I believe that God has plans for good and not for evil, to give us a future and a hope.

To me, this means that we should look at other people as brothers and sisters. We have a duty to keep dangerous people away from the general population, but all other behavior is none of my business. God made me the way I am; he loves my strengths, quirks and flaws the same way I love those of my children. I believe that He made all people with a need for love and companionship and family, including gay people, and that we commit great evil when we make people choose between their God-given nature and their God-given needs.

And I believe He wants me to play nicely with my siblings here on Earth and this includes not being their overlord and judge in matters that do not concern me.

How does my view on Abortion play God? I want God to be the one who decides when to take a life, not his creation. And I will admit I don't understand everything about God or why bad things happen. I don't think we were meant to. But I think you are wrong about Hell. There has to be a place where evil is separate from God. And there is something better for us all, that's why Jesus came to earth. If you believe that everyone goes to heaven then you take away the free will we have as God's creation.

[formergothardite]

Here is a link explaining why some people don't think the Bible condemns homosexuality.

http://www.gaychristian101.com/

So Jericho, do you believe like them? And why did an all knowing God not look and see that followers would end up being all confused with his instruction manual? Why didn't he make it easier to understand and make it clear so there is no disagreements about what it really means.

[Linnea]

How does my view on Abortion play God? I want God to be the one who decides when to take a life, not his creation. And I will admit I don't understand everything about God or why bad things happen. I don't think we were meant to. But I think you are wrong about Hell. There has to be a place where evil is separate from God. And there is something better for us all, that's why Jesus came to earth. If you believe that everyone goes to heaven then you take away the free will we have as God's creation.

So, in order to be logically consist, you shouldn't make use of modern medicine, right? (Or ancient medicine, for that matter.) If God makes you sick, you should just submit to His will and go ahead and die, shouldn't you?

I think you're being accused of playing God because you claim to know that God does not approve of abortion, when actually, the Bible's take on the subject is ambiguous at best.

[emmiedahl]

How does my view on Abortion play God? I want God to be the one who decides when to take a life, not his creation. And I will admit I don't understand everything about God or why bad things happen. I don't think we were meant to. But I think you are wrong about Hell. There has to be a place where evil is separate from God. And there is something better for us all, that's why Jesus came to earth. If you believe that everyone goes to heaven then you take away the free will we have as God's creation.

1. Your view on abortion is playing God because it is directly contradictory to Biblical teachings on abortion. The Bible says that a fetus is not a full human life, and you beg to differ.

2. If evil is the absence of God, then anyone in Heaven will not be evil. There will be no evil because God is there.

3. Belief in universal reconciliation does not have anything to do with free will. Why do you associate the two? I am not being mean, I am curious.

[Linnea]

Also, Jericho, if you go by what Jesus said about homosexuality?

Then you have no opinion about it one way or another, because he never said anything about it.

(This is almost too easy. Shooting fish in a barrel.)

[dcmhejbl62]

Thank you. My views, as should everyone's, should be evolving. It's not healthy to stick by your guns and be closed minded at the same time. I don't want to ever believe something because Republicans believe it or because a Christian leader believes it. I want to believe it because it is the responsible/ethical/logical etc. way.

I totally agree. I'm glad you're willing to ask questions, and admire your bravery for doing it in such a tough forum; I'm not sure I'd have had the fortitude for it, but on the plus side, if you ignore the personal attacks, you sure don't have to cut through a bunch of crap to get to the heart of the issues.

As has been brought up here, the Bible, homosexuality, whether we can know the nature of God, are all good issues to examine in light of what we may have been taught versus objective examination and evidence. Good luck.

[samurai_sarah]

How does my view on Abortion play God? I want God to be the one who decides when to take a life, not his creation. And I will admit I don't understand everything about God or why bad things happen. I don't think we were meant to. But I think you are wrong about Hell. There has to be a place where evil is separate from God. And there is something better for us all, that's why Jesus came to earth. If you believe that everyone goes to heaven then you take away the free will we have as God's creation.

Then why does god let women have abortions at all? Couldn't he just save the foetus, if he's omnipotent? But wouldn't god intervening go against the free will you're so fond of quoting?

Or *gasp* maybe your god isn't as interested in my uterus as your ilk? Oh, wait, I forgot again, I'm wilfully killing a little person, and doing so is supposed to teach the little soul...to pick a better incubator next time around?

[keeperrox]

How does my view on Abortion play God? I want God to be the one who decides when to take a life, not his creation. And I will admit I don't understand everything about God or why bad things happen. I don't think we were meant to. But I think you are wrong about Hell. There has to be a place where evil is separate from God. And there is something better for us all, that's why Jesus came to earth. If you believe that everyone goes to heaven then you take away the free will we have as God's creation.

What a walking contradiction you are, princess. Has your teeny, tiny pea brain ever courted the possibility that abortion is your God's way of taking some lives? You've admitted that you don't understand everything about God, yet you have flat out said that you are absolutely correct about abortion. Can you show me specifically where your God says taking medication to terminate a pregnancy is murder?

[valsa]

Then why does god let women have abortions at all? Couldn't he just save the foetus, if he's omnipotent? But wouldn't god intervening go against the free will you're so fond of quoting?

Or *gasp* maybe your god isn't as interested in my uterus as your ilk? Oh, wait, I forgot again, I'm wilfully killing a little person, and doing so is supposed to teach the little soul...to pick a better incubator next time around?

God wouldn't even have to interfer with free will. All he would have to do is make sure the only women who get pregnant aren't the ones who would get an abortion. Problem solved.

[Austin]

Women have been having abortions as long as we've had recorded history, so it is interesting that it is never really mentioned in the Bible as in, "Thou shalt not. . .". A plant that is now extinct (IIRC) was frequently used (silphium), and many other herbs, such as pennyroyal and worm fern, and all the usual methods involving sharp objects and the like.

So if Jesus presumably knew that this was a common practice (he knows because he's God and God knows everything), and considered abortion to be "murder", why does he never get around to mentioning it. In all of the minutiae of levitical law, there is scant mention, and then in the vein of if a woman is struck and miscarries, the perpetrator should pay the husband of the woman some money. It was not commanded that the perpetrator be put to death, as one would expect if God really considered an embryo/fetus a fully human being (eye for an eye).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_abortion

[emmiedahl]

Austin, I read that abortive plants became extinct because they were picked and used into nonexistence. There were a lot of women using them in Biblical times, and yet the Bible does not say anything negative about them!

[Austin]

Austin, I read that abortive plants became extinct because they were picked and used into nonexistence. There were a lot of women using them in Biblical times, and yet the Bible does not say anything negative about them!

I've read that too. These plants were not the type that could be cultivated, so they were highly valued in the ancient world.

[samurai_sarah]

I've read that too. These plants were not the type that could be cultivated, so they were highly valued in the ancient world.

Sorry, history geek here, can't help it: Silphium was a type of fennel that only grew on a narrow strip of land, in present-day Libya. As mentioned above, it couldn't be cultivated. One theory is that during Roman times, the demand far outstripped the supply, and a Roman governor to the province, sold more than was sustainably regrown. Another possibility, seeing as it only grew in such a specific and small place, is that the plant was already on the brink of extinction due to changes in the climate, and harvesting aggravated its demise. Allegedly, the last silphium plant was cut and sent to Rome to the Emperor Nero (of Christian-persecution fame) as a curiosity. So, it's probably safe to say that Silphium was most likely used during Biblical times.

Side-note: There ist some speculation that the "heart" symbol, meaning love, began as a depiction of silphium seeds, in antiquity.

[Austin]

Sorry, history geek here, can't help it: Silphium was a type of fennel that only grew on a narrow strip of land, in present-day Libya. As mentioned above, it couldn't be cultivated. One theory is that during Roman times, the demand far outstripped the supply, and a Roman governor to the province, sold more than was sustainably regrown. Another possibility, seeing as it only grew in such a specific and small place, is that the plant was already on the brink of extinction due to changes in the climate, and harvesting aggravated its demise. Allegedly, the last silphium plant was cut and sent to Rome to the Emperor Nero (of Christian-persecution fame) as a curiosity. So, it's probably safe to say that Silphium was most likely used during Biblical times.

Side-note: There ist some speculation that the "heart" symbol, meaning love, began as a depiction of silphium seeds, in antiquity.

That's for the specifics. I had read all about this at one time, but unfortunately could not remember the details. And I love history geeks!

[Renting with Raggles]

On waking up, in response to Lissar's poll, my guess is 1.

Reading through the thread, it's very obvious now that Jericho is very young (or has not completed formal education beyond secondary school) and probably male. The slippery stalling tactic that we've all noticed (to "her" chagrin and evident frustration) is frequently used by teenage boys when they haven't done their homework and are trying to project blame onto the teacher through accusations/ deliberate misunderstandings - hence the wide-eyed, petulant tone "but I didn't say nothin', Miss, why you pickin' on me?" that Jericho has adopted towards nearly everyone. "She" will not be addressing any of the contradictions we find in "her" positions on abortion or homosexuality: "she" will always revert to spewing memorised points on the nature of god - we got the Ray Comfort "atheists base their views on nothing" before anyone had declared themselves an atheist. A little oopsie, Jericho.

On the other hand, we were familiarised with the term "inadament object" (clearly not a typing error, but a mistake by a teen who heard the word but never saw it written) so it was still quite amusing for me.

Just a final word to Jericho: if he is actually sincere in his faith, he ought to treat it with the respect it deserves and be a good ambassador for it. Derailing a thread, refusing to answer very simple questions to explain glaringly obvious contradictions in your philosophy and sulking are not going to impress anyone with the wonders of whatever fundamentalist sect you champion. Even if you are a 5-point Calvinist and we're all doomed to hell, the elect are expected to have prettier manners than that. Show us how well you can behave, my dear, and we'll grant you the respect your actions deserve, even if we disagree with the opinions you hold. That's what grown people do.

Now, as I live in a predominantly atheist nation, I'm going to go listen to those inadament objects, the rocks, cry out for the morning concert.

[emmiedahl]

I have entertained for a while the probably-wrong-but-interesting idea that Jericho is Josh Duggar. *shrug* It's entertaining at least.

[Renting with Raggles]

emmiedahl, that would be awesome! Inadament could very well be on a SOTDRT vocabulary list.

Certainly male, because unlike every other 'pro-life' advocate posting here, Jericho does not follow the fundie female mandate to 'keep sweet' in syntax and tone (contrast to ohm, who similarly couldn't explain her contradictions but resorted to handwringing 'I may be naive, but this is what I believe' and used her babies as an excuse to flee) and uses the more (adolescent) masculine techniques of stalling/ denying/ redirecting discussion when called out on contradictory or hypocritical positions.

I found it interesting that he decided to start posting in the week before Christmas. Did his other posts coincide with school hols? That would rule out Joshie.

[Guest Anonymous]

Okay, critical thinking and logic on what? It has to be based on something.

Where did the principles and laws of mathematics come from? Where did the theory of gravity and other scientific theories come from? Curious people applied themselves to something that they wanted to understand and they figured it out. Logic and critical thinking came about the same way.

Philosophy proceeds by reasoned discussion and debate. To do philosophy well, therefore, it is important to know some fundamental principles of logic. Logic is the study of reasoning. Reasoning is the process by which we use evidence to judge {and} try to discover or persuade others of the truth.

web.utk.edu/~nolt/courses/logic.html - (Fundamentals of Logic)

I'm sure it's purely by accident, but you've managed to ask an interesting question. At the core of it all you're asking the questions that philosophers and sages and theologians and drunks have been pondering for thousands of years. What are we? Why are we? What is the basis of virtue? Where do good and evil come from? What is the best way to live? Are logic and reason paramount? Should they be tempered with compassion? What about religion? Does it make people better or worse? Does God exist? How can we know? What can we prove, and what has to be taken on faith alone?

If you weren't a dishonest windbag whose intellect is shallower than a puddle this could lead to a great conversation. Alas.

[formergothardite]

I have entertained for a while the probably-wrong-but-interesting idea that Jericho is Josh Duggar. *shrug* It's entertaining at least.

I never thought of that, but it would be awesome. Jericho really does argue like a fundie teen/early 20's guy.

[debrand]

If we didn't have the ability to sin, we would be no different than an inadament object with no thinking or reasoning ability. God created us for His own reasons, I can only speculate.

There is a difference between my dog and my table.

Humans are self aware and have the ability for more advanced rational thought. That is what sets us apart from animals. The fact that we are alive sets us apart from inanimate objects.

(Somewhere I read that other primates are self aware, but I don't remember where I came across that.)

[debrand]

[i assume you are asking why can God not look upon sin? The answer is because sin is the absence of good. If you mix evil and good you do not have good anymore. Just as if you mix black paint into white paint.

Aren't you putting a limit on your god? I thought he was all powerful and everywhere. Now he can be defeated by loving same sex couples giving one another a smooch.

So, if a man rapes a woman, is god unable to see the crime? How does he know that anyone does anything wrong if he can't look at their sins?

[Renting with Raggles]

If we didn't have the ability to sin, we would be no different than an inadament object with no thinking or reasoning ability. God created us for His own reasons, I can only speculate.

This is from page 10 if Josh wants to get off his butt and go grab the bucket of whitewash.

[debrand]

I can sort of understand why someone might imagine that there might be a higher power. I don't understand is how that leads the person to anything beyond agnosticism. A person might feel the need for some structure to contemplate the unknown and join a religion. What confuses me is how that doubt would lead a person to concluding that Christianity is true above all other religions.

As for where formergothardite got her belief on morals...When I was a Christian, I took part in the forums on Catholic Answers. I was pretty impressed by some of the answers that atheists gave about the source of morality.

We are a social animal. Many morals laws help the society survive. Other rules help pass on the individual's genes. For example, it doesn't make much sense to kill your newborn because the baby is part of your genetic future.

Another example,Telling lies hurts society's ability to trust you and depend on you as a member of the group. Dishonesty usually leads to other problems. The liar has to keep his lies straight, continually be on guard for being caught and usually ends up just telling more lies. It takes a lot of unnecessary work to continually to lie. Although a lie might help in the short run, overtime, it is really not productive to lie. If you get caught, your social group, family etc will not trust you and that hurts you

Most moral laws can be discerned through logic

edited to make it flow a bit better.

[formergothardite]

Informal poll - Is jericho refusing to state her opinion about gay people because:

1.) She's trolling us.

2.) She's afraid it will be deconstructed and exposed as an illogical mess.

3.) She really wants to say that gay people are going to burn in hell but she has just enough self awareness to know that's awful and worthy of derision.

4.) She's so wishy washy that she doesn't even have an opinion/she's never actually thought about that.

5.) Other, fill in the blank.

After her not-answer, I am sure now it is 2 and 3. She gave the vague "I believe the Bible" answer, which really isn't an answer. Unless she is so sheltered she doesn't realize that there isn't a cut and dry answer about homosexuality in the bible. It is open to debate, so the real question (that she will never answer I am sure) is what does she believe the bible says about homosexuality. I think she just doesn't want to fess up to her own offensive beliefs

But Jericho saying she doesn't want to debate it shows that she also knows that her beliefs are going to be ripped to shreds and she can't defend them. Especially since I bet she is against gay marriage which flies in the face of her small government beliefs.

So Jericho, what do you believe the Bible says about homosexuality, and why in the world did God make the Bible so open to interpretation?