Can People Be Born Homosexual?

[jericho]

Really, if you believe abortion is murder, not putting women in jail is disrespectful to women. Let me explain. Women are not less responsible for their own actions than men. THe only justification for not putting women in jail would be if society vews women as not capable of making their own decisions. That, of course, opens another nasty can of worms.

So if Abortion was illegal you think treemom should be put in jail?

[synchroswimr]

This totally reminded me of something. Sorry this will be TMI about myself, but back when I went to fundie-lite college, I became a submissive girlfriend to this guy and ended up doing PIA (both consensually and not) because PIV would be a sin. Afterward, he got all weird and said something like "I'm such an idiot for doing that. I could get AIDS." I tried to assure him that I was pretty sure that my risk for being HIV-positive was very very low. He didn't get it.

I finally realized that he didn't understand that HIV was a transmitted disease that you get from somebody because they have it. He really did just think that doing PIA spontaneously results in AIDS. :o

Oh, wow! That is pretty crazy

[formergothardite]

So if Abortion was illegal you think treemom should be put in jail?

You are the one who wants it to be illegal and claims that it is a life being killed. Explain why she shouldn't be put in jail.

Edited because I am really not going to let you get out of answering this question. You are the one who originally thought treemom should be charged with murder, what changed your mind?

[jericho]

You are the one who wants it to be illegal and claims that it is a life being killed. Explain why she shouldn't be put in jail.

Last time I was accused of wanting to put her in jail, now I'm ridiculed for not wanting to. Wow.

[debrand]

So if Abortion was illegal you think treemom should be put in jail?

I'm prochoice. I'm not being snarky when I point out that I said, IF you believe.

[Guest Anonymous]

Last time I was accused of wanting to put her in jail, now I'm ridiculed for not wanting to. Wow.

How dare people accuse you of saying shit that you said!

[jericho]

Edited because I am really not going to let you get out of answering this question. You are the one who originally thought treemom should be charged with murder, what changed your mind?

Because I feel its more appropriate to charge the doctor who as a professional, decided to break the law. Just as I feel a doctor who assists in suicide should be criminally charged.

[formergothardite]

Last time I was accused of wanting to put her in jail, now I'm ridiculed for not wanting to. Wow.

That is only because you refuse to explain why it is okay for someone who (in your mind) is assisting killing a child shouldn't be in jail. If I really thought a fetus was a real life, yes I would believe treemom and myself should be in jail for murder. I don't, but apparently you do, so spill it, why shouldn't she be?

[formergothardite]

Because I feel its more appropriate to charge the doctor who as a professional, decided to break the law. Just as I feel a doctor who assists in suicide should be criminally charged.

So if I hired people to kill my children today I shouldn't be charged with anything?

[jericho]

I'm prochoice. I'm not being snarky when I point out that I said, IF you believe.

And I said IF abortion was illegal. So it still stands that you think treemom should be in jail IF it was illegal.

[debrand]

Last time I was accused of wanting to put her in jail, now I'm ridiculed for not wanting to. Wow.

No. We are just trying to get you to look at your believes logically. There is no way to get around the fact that if abortion=murder than women who seek abortions should go to jail or get the death penalty.

For the record, I do not believe that abortion is murder. I've gone back and forth between being moderately prolife and prochoice. My conclusion is that the decision has to be left to the individual woman. I would like to see better sex education and more free birth control to lower the numbers of unwanted pregnancies.

[formergothardite]

If it were illegal and if I thought it was a real life being killed, it only makes logical sense to put her in jail. You haven't provided a reason someone who hires someone else to kill a person shouldn't be in jail.

[silvia]

Last time I was accused of wanting to put her in jail, now I'm ridiculed for not wanting to. Wow.

Uh... I don't think any of us really think treemom should be put in jail. I think, jericho, that you're simply being asked to consider the logical inconsistency of your beliefs. If abortion is in fact murder, why indeed should the "murderers" not be left to rot in jail? Being pro-life AND arguing for a lesser punishment reveals that you don't truly see a zygote or embryo or fetus as equivalent to a human being, even though the unborn baby=human claim is the bedrock of the pro-life movement.

[debrand]

Because I feel its more appropriate to charge the doctor who as a professional, decided to break the law. Just as I feel a doctor who assists in suicide should be criminally charged.

So women aren't capable of making their own decisions? Do you think that the doctor pulls pregnant women into his or her clinic or brainwashes them? Do you think that women are just too emotioanlly fragile to make their own choices?

I just want you to consider what you are saying Jericho.

[jericho]

If it were illegal and if I thought it was a real life being killed, it only makes logical sense to put her in jail. You haven't provided a reason someone who hires someone else to kill a person shouldn't be in jail.

This is a mute point now. Abortion is legal and its not likely to be overturned. I'm not sure (as you can tell) what should be the punishment if it were illegal, but I am absolutely certain in my belief that abortion is the taking of a life and is wrong.

[formergothardite]

I'm going to quote Jericho's own words to her:

A. I know this is the question that abortion rights people use to try and trap up pro-lifers, but the answer must be one of tough love. I believe the woman and the doctor should be held to the same laws as murder. If not then the whole argument for life is invalid.

You were absolutely right with the bolded part, when you changed your answer to the question, your argument for life became invalid. Your whole anti-abortion premise doesn't work anymore.

[formergothardite]

This is a mute point now. Abortion is legal and its not likely to be overturned. I'm not sure (as you can tell) what should be the punishment if it were illegal, but I am absolutely certain in my belief that abortion is the taking of a life and is wrong.

Well, it is obvious you aren't going to think deeply about this, at least on this thread, so could you move onto if you are for forced organ donations, if you donate yourself on a regular basis and your views on homosexuality.

[Guest Anonymous]

formergothardite, debrand, and silvia - I really admire the three of you for your posts on this thread.

[formergothardite]

Well, it is pouring rain here in NC, my kids are watching tv, and I have nothing but time to debate people who won't think about their beliefs. These sort of fundies are becoming a dime a dozen around here.

[jericho]

I'm going to quote Jericho's own words to her:

A. I know this is the question that abortion rights people use to try and trap up pro-lifers, but the answer must be one of tough love. I believe the woman and the doctor should be held to the same laws as murder. If not then the whole argument for life is invalid.

You were absolutely right with the bolded part, when you changed your answer to the question, your argument for life became invalid. Your whole anti-abortion premise doesn't work anymore.

You are right. I should have never changed my stance. The most important thing is saving lives. Nothing should take away from that.

[Austin]

This is a mute point now. Abortion is legal and its not likely to be overturned. I'm not sure (as you can tell) what should be the punishment if it were illegal, but I am absolutely certain in my belief that abortion is the taking of a life and is wrong.

Oh, it's far from a moot point. People like you are working tirelessly and with very deep pockets at their disposal to divest women in the USA of the right to self-determine every. single. day. Chip-chip-chipping away with your paid shills in statehouses all across this country. We will rise up, have no doubt.

[silvia]

Because I feel its more appropriate to charge the doctor who as a professional, decided to break the law. Just as I feel a doctor who assists in suicide should be criminally charged.

Actually, murderers AND anyone who solicits someone else to commit murder (which, according to pro-life thinking, would be the embryo's mother) can and will be held liable in the American justice system. Ever heard of the Pamela Smart case (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamela_Smart)? Pam never laid a hand on a murder weapon herself, but she convinced her fifteen-year-old lover to shoot her husband. She is now serving a life sentence in New York State prison.

So your new logic doesn't hold up. If, as you and other pro-lifers desire, abortion were considered equivalent to murder under the law, both abortion doctors AND the women visiting them for abortions would be charged.

[formergothardite]

You are right. I should have never changed my stance. The most important thing is saving lives. Nothing should take away from that.

Well at least you are owning up to your beliefs that women who have abortions should be put in jail. Still curious as to what changed your mind (briefly) about it.

edited to say, I would rather you go answer the other questions now that we know where you really stand on abortion, though.

[jericho]

Oh, it's far from a moot point. People like you are working tirelessly and with very deep pockets at their disposal to divest women in the USA of the right to self-determine every. single. day. Chip-chip-chipping away with your paid shills in statehouses all across this country. We will rise up, have no doubt.

Rise up? People like you have had abortion legal since 1973 with nothing even close to overturning it. what is there to rise up about and what has been chipped away at?

[Guest Anonymous]

So, jericho's flippity floppity progression has been:

Abortion is murder but women who get abortions should get some compassion and a pat on the head. Maybe a time out to think about what they did wrong.

Abortion is murder and women who get them should go to jail like any other murderer, along with their doctors.

Abortion is murder but only the doctors who perform them should go to jail.

Abortion is murder but shouldn't carry the same penalty as murdering a child.

Protecting life is the most important thing and abortion is murder so lock women up.

She's stuck on the abortion is murder bit but she sure as fuck doesn't know what to do about it. Deep down she has to realize that a fetus is not the same as a child that has been born, but she Will. Not. Admit. It. Ever. I simply can't see this equivocating happening over whether or not a person who shot formergothardite's hypothetical five year old should be in jail or set loose with a Bible and a lollipop.