What is it like believing that God influences everything?

[GatorGutCasserole]

That's good for you. Understand, however, that while you may have found your "truth" (your right puzzle), it is not everybody's "truth".

But that's no reason not letting it shove down everyone's throats. :pray:

[NurseNell]

Lissar: I'm unfamiliar with the term "troll." All I can think of is 3 goats crossing a bridge. :-/ lol!

Sorry 4x4, there is no way you can have been participating in on-line forums for 10 years and not know what a troll is. No way, it's impossible.

[GatorGutCasserole]

Sorry 4x4, there is no way you can have been participating in on-line forums for 10 years and not know what a troll is. No way, it's impossible.

Like the joke has it: No Sir, there aren't any ghosts around here. I should know thatI've been living in this castle for 600 years.

[4x4]

Troll. Got it. Doggie, thanks . I was headed that way, but after being accused of lying, I wanted to be told what the word means.

Lissar: I found it. Thanks. And no, I'm no troll. I just stated my opinion, and was very unfortunately, unclear.

Doggie: this is one of the things I have no answer for. All I can say is the answer is in Scripture somewhere and I haven't found it. I may never find it. But, I will know someday. Maybe some theologian somewhere has the answer. If I had all. The answers, or claimed to, I would be an arrogant liar. I know Scripture does say that Christ was slain before the foundations of the world. So, we know that even before God created the World, it was in His plan for Christ to bear the sin of His people and Christ had already determined to do so. More than that, I don't know...

[4x4]

Ok, folks!! Listen up! I never said I had actively been a part of forums for 10 years. I said (general gist here - not exatct quote) that I had participated in forums since I was 12 or 13. C'mon, at 12 or 13, the forums I would have been on wouldn't have been that mature or savvy. I only mentioned it because I had - even back then - not communicated very clearly.

At 15 or 16 I again joined a couple of historical forums. The entire point was to argue and debate history. There really wouldn't have been any need to call someone a troll, since everyone was tossing in info and opinions to start debate. And we were always off topic, since one thing led to another.

Later on (don't remember when) I tried a theological forum. That didn't last long. Indont think I even posted there. They were waaaaay ahead of me.

I later joined a general forum where debates would begin on a thread and then go to PM's between individuals or small groups. We moved shortly after I joined this one, so I wasn't on it but a couple of months (long enough to get myself into trouble. ;) Once we were settled in, I had lost interest. I was. Little busy for extra online communication.

A few months later I joined a farming forum. I honestly haven't done much there except read and ask some questions. Then, I joined this one about a week ago, or so. Troll really hasn't been needed in the forums I've been on, and it's not like I've been on every day for 10 years, either. If I ever saw the term, I probably didn't stop to see what context it was being used. I'm not a detail oriented person, and probably didn't even wonder. I do a lot of skim through reading when I read.

However, believe me, I'll never forget it now! And, "never be afraid to ask questions" is out as well. From now on, I'mm a ting like I know what everything means.

[Constance Vigilance]

I never said I had actively been a part of forums for 10 years. I said (general gist here - not exatct quote) that I had participated in forums since I was 12 or 13.

What the fuck are you even saying? If you are over 22 then both parts of that are true, because "actively been a part of" and "participated in" MEAN THE SAME THING. You can see the world "part" right there in "participate". If you are are younger than 22 than you have "actively been a part of"/"participated in" forums for [x] years minus 12 or 13.

You are simply too stupid to be on the internet. Please step off before you hurt yourself.

[SheWoreLemon]

The concept of original sin doesn't relate to the original topic--what it is like to live when you believe God influences everything.

4x4, you believe that God placed you in your family here in America--that you were blessed and lucky because of that--you have food, your dad has a job, you have enough money to live on, when your parents were unemployed you could fall back on government benerfits (anyone born in North America or Europe is extremely lucky)

How would you feel about God if you had been born in Somalia? There is a civil war going on there right now, and also a famine. About 30,000 children have starved to death there in the past year. Imagine you were one of their moms. Would you still feel content believing that God plans out and influences everything in your life?

When bad things happen to someone else (they get sick or lose their job)--why do you think that is?

1. We might not understand why but God is using it for his purpose. It will strengthen us. Someone else will learn from it.

2. It's punishment for something they did--they need to pray so God will forgive them. They need to learn a lesson from it.

3. They are possessed by a demon--need to rebuke it in name of Jesus.

4. They invited the demon into them---need to confess the sin that invited the demon in, then rebuke.

5. Sometimes things happen that God didn't cause to happen (physical laws of nature that God put into place)--like a hurricane happens. But then God uses that for good.

6. Sometimes random stuff just happens that aren't part of laws of nature (a recession happens so someone loses their job, can't pay their rent, loses their home).

[GatorGutCasserole]

Most crap that happens to people, if you really look into it, they call it upon themselves. I never blamed any god or any politician for my bad luck. As long as I was a kid, most things were my parents' fault. From 18 and on... I stopped blaming anyone else for my mistakes, and sometims in some cases - shit happens apply and you have to deal with it. I could not live putting the resp on something or someone else.

[Deleted07]

Well, if that's how you choose to believe, that's fine. To me, that's a rather random and depressing way to look at life, but apparently you have no problem with it. My beliefs don't mean God is anything. He is exactly what He says He is. What you think of him really doesn't worry Him. In fact, He even orchistrates that, so while I believe you are wrong, you go right ahead. Perhaps someday He will change your mind. Perhaps not. It will certainly be through no desire of yours, as you are very secure apparently in your beliefs. For now, I'm glad I believe in something more than random chance, but you are more than welcome to believe any way you want.

Condescending much, not to mention contradictory!

4x4 if its true you have been on that many forums over the years and you have had the same problems arise, again and again, you might want to take THAT as a 'sign' from your God and you either need to learn to communicate better, or just not come onto forums altogether.

[goldennotebook]

The only thing that would atone for sin was blood. That's it. Sin must be paid for.

Why is that? Why would a loving God who created us out of benevolence make a universe where only bloodshed can be justice for a sin? Can't an all-powerful God just forgive without having to kill anyone? Blood atonement isn't logical - it's barbaric.

[formergothardite]

You never answered if you can see that saying God gave me hamburgers while at the same time letting children starve to death makes him look like a jerk.

[GatorGutCasserole]

You never answered if you can see that saying God gave me hamburgers while at the same time letting children starve to death makes him look like a jerk.

I could never figure out what was it that made him BETTER than Lucifer. Actually 'God' is just more FEARFUL. That's why more people pray to him. =BTW what exactly makes him a HIM? Anyone seen his genitals or gave him a rectal examination after he turned 40?

[valsa]

When I was younger, believing that God influences everything just made me more convinced that God doesn't exist (at least, not the Christian God) Or if he did exist, that he was a sadist.

The whole original sin angle comes from the idea that Adam and Eve disobeyed God's command and doomed the entire human race in doing so. Except that before they comitted that specific sin (eating the fruit that allowed them to tell the difference between bad and good), they were not capable of understanding what sin was or why it would have been wrong to disobey God. What God supposedly did was like telling a 10 month old not to touch a hot stove, then killing him when he does. 1) the punishment does not fit the crime, and 2) the victim didn't even understand what they were doing wrong.

So essentially all humans suffer because God set mankind up to suffer. Even if it hadn't been Adam and Eve, as long as they and their offspring didn't know right from wrong, someone somewhere along the line was going to eat that fruit.

[formergothardite]

The only reasons I can think of that God would give 4x4 a hamburger that is a want, not a need, while children everywhere die of starvation are:

~ God loves her more than he loves them,

~ Somehow God thinks these small children need to be taught a lesson, but she doesn't

~ God is an uncaring jerk

[maybeizfundie]

How would you feel about God if you had been born in Somalia?

I will leave 4x4 to the mercies of y'all. :D But this jumped out at me.

I am married to someone, and have met many others, who were born in countries and situations that we would find horrific and unbearable, and share pretty much the same view of God--as providing, caring, loving, blessing, etc. And as ultimately sovreign though for a time we all suffer the results of living in a sinful world.

[Trillian]

If God influences everything, what happens if he gives you cereal but all you want is eggs? Does that mean you are in conflict with God?

[treemom]

Treemom: Again, I do not expect you to agree. Again, I'm not evangelizing. I am replying.

How can a perfectly holy and sinless God allow sin into His perfect Heaven. The only thing that would atone for sin was blood. That's it. Sin must be paid for. The spiritually dead must be raised to life. The debt for sin must be paid. The only way this debt could be paid was by blood. That's it. It had to be paid by the ultimate price - a life. A human could not give this life. Should a human die to pay this debt, it would do nothing. That human would die anyway as punishment for breaking the law. One who had broken no laws, who was absolutely sinless must willingly pay the debt. That is what Christ did.

Fair?? Fair?? What is fair? Fair would be each and every sinner actually paying for his sin. Fair would be the teeny tiny creation paying for rebelling and shaking it's fist in the very face of the one who created it. Absolutely rebelling against the very one who gave it life. Fair would be that creation being absolutely destroyed on the spot. Fair would be God removing His general grace from the world and allowing us to completely tear one another apart - which is what each and every human would do, without Christ. Every horror and every horrific idea and action would be committed with glee by every human who ever lived. That would be fair. Thankfully, He has not allowed this. He has allowed His creation continue on in a depraved manner, but not with win running free and wild. What He is allowing - common grace upon His creation - is unfair, but I much prefer it.

As you do not believe in total depravity, I know you disagree. However, as far as I can find, this is how it is. I am always learning more and may of course be wrong, but (this sounds cliche, but itbis not meant that way) I would die for this belief. I believe it is what the Bible teaches, and I will stand on it.

If god makes the rules, then he could allow everyone in

But let me be clear, I am not simply disagreeing with you, I am expressing my sheer disgust at you and your god. And your special hamburger. You sound immature and stupid.

And why do you think god and Christ are the ones that keep us from acting totally depraved? Seriously. I am not a Christian and (I beg the apologies of those who are nuanced Chriatians here) I think Christianity like most religions is a travesty brought upon the world to justify the suffering of humans with the idea of a greater reward in heaven. I think it is about power, not grace and humility. And yet I still haven't committed one horrible action with glee. And yet....how many Christians have done that?

[treemom]

I will leave 4x4 to the mercies of y'all. :D But this jumped out at me.

I am married to someone, and have met many others, who were born in countries and situations that we would find horrific and unbearable, and share pretty much the same view of God--as providing, caring, loving, blessing, etc. And as ultimately sovreign though for a time we all suffer the results of living in a sinful world.

Yeah that is because they believe in a reward for suffering. The meek shall inherit the earth and all that.

Religion,...it is about power, not compassion.

[debrand]

I will leave 4x4 to the mercies of y'all. :D But this jumped out at me.

I am married to someone, and have met many others, who were born in countries and situations that we would find horrific and unbearable, and share pretty much the same view of God--as providing, caring, loving, blessing, etc. And as ultimately sovreign though for a time we all suffer the results of living in a sinful world.

I watched Bill Mahr's Irreligulous(sp?) and he said that being an atheist was a luxury. People in horrific situations often feel that they need a belief in something to get them through their lives.

I have to give 4x4 credit for at least trying to answer questions. Most people that I've know just get offended and refuse to look deeper. When I was deconverting, the question about why god allowed people to be born into a life of ease while others suffered unimaginable horrors used to bother me. My friends would offer me platitudes. "We will know when we die." or "Those are questions that I am going to ask god when I die."

I don't understand how people are satisfied with such answers or why they don't want to look deeper.

Maybe I'm twisted but I am enjoying the way treemom and others are shining a light on some of these beliefs. In our society, religious people are allowed to tell others that they are wrong but it is frowned upon for atheists or agnostics to question the beliefs of religious people.

[debrand]

Yeah that is because they believe in a reward for suffering. The meek shall inherit the earth and all that.

Religion,...it is about power, not compassion.

It could also be used as a way for people to remain in the same crappy situation and not take control of their own lives. Among some Christians, accepting everything without question is seen as proof that the person has true faith.

[treemom]

Maybe I'm twisted but I am enjoying the way treemom and others are shining a light on some of these beliefs. In our society, religious people are allowed to tell others that they are wrong but it is frowned upon for atheists or agnostics to question the beliefs of religious people.

You know I am not even sure what I am or what is the truth. But I do know that if what 4X4 and others are peddling is the truth I can't think of that God as a good God in any way. I don't think he has mercy or grace.

I am lucky in that I have had the opportunity to explore lots of the world and be confronted with lots of religions and people and hardships and good stuff. And that framed my opinion.

Plus I resent being told that I can't be good without God. That God keeps me from doing unspeakable things.

[ppmath]

[quote}You must look at it from the Eternal point of view. A just and absolutely perfect and holy God who knows no sin created something wonderful. That creation took it upon itself to unperfect itself - to tarnish and blight itself. Every speck of that creation for ever more is blighted and self destructs. God chose to give that creation a chance to become perfect once more (though not on this earth.) He turned His face away from and damned his own Son who knew no sin and who was absoluetly perfect in order to fulfil that desire. His son did not go through this unwillingly. He did it knowing all that it would entail. Either God must allow the world to continue to work with the laws He put in place in the beginning (if human intercourse happens, in many cases a child is created), or He must destroy the entire universe immediately. Those are the only 2 choices. Both will occur.

[dcmhejbl62]

Not sure we're even on the topic anymore, but for me, it's more of a reassurance that things will work out eventually (when something bad happens), and a reminder to be grateful and live in the moment (when something good happens).

My view of God is pretty complicated though (and always changing); rather than an omnipotent dictator of the universe, I view him more as a spiritual parent. If something bad happens to me, my mom can't make it go away, but she can go through it with me, empathize with me, and help me see how to make things better, or what I can learn from the experience to help me later in life. That's how I interact with God (usually. Sometimes I'm pissed and I tell him to go away and take his divine intervention with him, and no, I don't worry about going to hell for it), and it is comforting. Empowering.

I realize one doesn't have to have a belief in God to feel this way. I'm sure part of my attributing it to God is my upbringing, and I'm okay with that.

[treemom]

Not sure we're even on the topic anymore, but for me, it's more of a reassurance that things will work out eventually (when something bad happens), and a reminder to be grateful and live in the moment (when something good happens).

My view of God is pretty complicated though (and always changing); rather than an omnipotent dictator of the universe, I view him more as a spiritual parent. If something bad happens to me, my mom can't make it go away, but she can go through it with me, empathize with me, and help me see how to make things better, or what I can learn from the experience to help me later in life. That's how I interact with God (usually. Sometimes I'm pissed and I tell him to go away and take his divine intervention with him, and no, I don't worry about going to hell for it), and it is comforting. Empowering.

I realize one doesn't have to have a belief in God to feel this way. I'm sure part of my attributing it to God is my upbringing, and I'm okay with that.

I can get behind that, it is a much more nuanced view of God. He didn't cause or prevent it...but is a spiritual counselor.

[4x4]

What the fuck are you even saying? If you are over 22 then both parts of that are true, because "actively been a part of" and "participated in" MEAN THE SAME THING. You can see the world "part" right there in "participate". If you are are younger than 22 than you have "actively been a part of"/"participated in" forums for [x] years minus 12 or 13.

You are simply too stupid to be on the internet. Please step off before you hurt yourself.

My point was that I didn't have 10 years of experience behind me. The context of my original mention of my previous forum experience was simply indicating that I'd been a poor communicator then, and that I was slowly getting better. For all you knew, I could have had 2 days of forum activity every 2 years, or even less. My entire point of my latest post was that while, over the span of 9 or 10 years, I had periodically participated in forums, but it was 10 years of experience and forum activity. It was probably a few months worth or a year, and mostly in an environment where "trolling" wouldn't be found.

You, my friend, refuse to look for the intent of a response and only wish to argue. As this particular discussion is completely off topic for the thread (not even pertaining to spiritual matters, let alone profitable or informative discussion), I suggest we stop.

However, if you just can't stand it and must argue, go right ahead.