What is it like believing that God influences everything?

[goldennotebook]

Oh, and I have mo doubt many of you will not understand (emotinally, not the actual words) my view of Salvation. Like I said, I struggled and searched Scripture for 3 years before I even began to understand how that could be anything but horrible. I finally discovered I had been trying to fit the puzzle pieces into the wrong puzzle. It was absolutely amazing once I discovered the right puzzle!

How do you reckon that?

[Austin]

Oh, and I have mo doubt many of you will not understand (emotinally, not the actual words) my view of Salvation. Like I said, I struggled and searched Scripture for 3 years before I even began to understand how that could be anything but horrible. I finally discovered I had been trying to fit the puzzle pieces into the wrong puzzle. It was absolutely amazing once I discovered the right puzzle!

That's good for you. Understand, however, that while you may have found your "truth" (your right puzzle), it is not everybody's "truth".

[treemom]

Are you a fundie 4x4 becUse I have had my fill of people trying to show us the way.

As long as their are people starving and dying in this world for no reason other than where they were born and your god is interested in your hamburger cravings he will always be a god who isn't worth worshipping to me.

I would get behind a god who came down from the sky and told you to get your own damn hamburger that he is trying to figure out how to solve the worlds ills.

[Brainsample]

I still don't see how God being omnipotent is compatible with free will. Even if you arguing from the view point that God has just set things in motion, He still must be in control of everything, including people's actions, else He wouldn't be omnipotent, and He must know what people are going to choose else he wouldn't be omniscient. If God controls everything we do and knows what we will do how can we have any free will, if we part of some big plan? If there is only one choice we can make then surely free will is an illusion?

From where we're sitting, it may well be an illusion. But even so, we are told to choose and charged to choose and are encouraged to make the right choices. From where God is, it's all happened anyway, as if time and all human history is a cube that sits on some cosmic shelf. That still doesn't relieve me of the duty and the life before me, and that is full of consequence and choice from my vantage. In God's terms, choice might well be an illusion. From all I can tell, it's free choice all the way, and I'm fully responsible for what I do or don't do.

When I get to cast off this mortal coil and get to that unknown country, maybe I will understand a bit more.

And I am cool with people who don't see God as some kind of master weaver artist who is at work bringing some masterpiece together. What is essential is that people figure out what makes their life meaningful while lending them some optimism which fosters ethics and desire to keep living, really. The worst thing in the world is for someone to be forced to live some lie, signing their reasoning over to someone else who has reasoned for them. That is sad indeed, I think.

One day I may wake up from the illusion, but I then expect that more of life will make sense when I get to see the right side of the tapestry.

[goldennotebook]

Brainsample, I'm sure you've explained this before, but what I don't understand from a theological standpoint is why a bodily sacrifice or a blood atonement for sin is necessary from a loving God - can't he just forgive us without the whole killing-his-son part?

[bbfreethinker]

Brainsample, I'm sure you've explained this before, but what I don't understand from a theological standpoint is why a bodily sacrifice or a blood atonement for sin is necessary from a loving God - can't he just forgive us without the whole killing-his-son part?

This is something I've been wondering too.

[4x4]

Treemom - I already said (at least once, maybe more) that I'm not here trying to convince anyone of anything. This is not a witnessing moment. I just offered an answer to a question I found interesting. A lot of people didn't like my answer, and I probably didn't explain very well either. The responses to my original post led to questions being asked, so this is why I have shared my beliefs. You can hate them, ignore them, give your opinion on them, I don't care. That's fine. I'm not here to change your mind and I don't think I could if I was. No - I'm not throwing my beliefs in your face (I was asked several questions, craving my more specific beliefs into this) and I have no intention of trying to drag you into believing them yourself.

You can rest assured about that. :)

Brainsample, I like very much your original post. :)

[ppmath]

4 x 4, you asked why someone might not like what you believe. I'm not sure if you worded it that way,and I can't get back to your post to quote it, but I can give my response: Why would any God that anyone could consider "good" continue to make sentient humans just to condemn most of them to eternal torture? For some reason, that doesn't bother you. Good for you. It will never stop bothering me.

[4x4]

Ppmath: I don't remember asking this (without a second part of the question to go with it), but I'm too lazy to go back and get my actual words as well. :-P

You must look at it from the Eternal point of view. A just and absolutely perfect and holy God who knows no sin created something wonderful. That creation took it upon itself to unperfect itself - to tarnish and blight itself. Every speck of that creation for ever more is blighted and self destructs. God chose to give that creation a chance to become perfect once more (though not on this earth.) He turned His face away from and damned his own Son who knew no sin and who was absoluetly perfect in order to fulfil that desire. His son did not go through this unwillingly. He did it knowing all that it would entail. Either God must allow the world to continue to work with the laws He put in place in the beginning (if human intercourse happens, in many cases a child is created), or He must destroy the entire universe immediately. Those are the only 2 choices. Both will occur.

[treemom]

Ppmath: I don't remember asking this (without a second part of the question to go with it), but I'm too lazy to go back and get my actual words as well. :-P

You must look at it from the Eternal point of view. A just and absolutely perfect and holy God who knows no sin created something wonderful. That creation took it upon itself to unperfect itself - to tarnish and blight itself. Every speck of that creation for ever more is blighted and self destructs. God chose to give that creation a chance to become perfect once more (though not on this earth.) He turned His face away from and damned his own Son who knew no sin and who was absoluetly perfect in order to fulfil that desire. His son did not go through this unwillingly. He did it knowing all that it would entail. Either God must allow the world to continue to work with the laws He put in place in the beginning (if human intercourse happens, in many cases a child is created), or He must destroy the entire universe immediately. Those are the only 2 choices. Both will occur.

This doesn't redeem your god at all. When I realize my rules are unfair and wrong, I change them, and why are those the only two options?

[Alcyone]

I've been reading this discussion and find it interesting.

4x4, if you don't mind I have a couple of questions about what you wrote above. In my perspective, everything in Christianity seems to hinge on what you say here:

A just and absolutely perfect and holy God who knows no sin created something wonderful. That creation took it upon itself to unperfect itself

My first question is where did it get the ability to unperfect itself in every way after almighty God had created it so perfect? Also, if it could become so destroyed was it really perfect in the first place? My final question would be how do you know that this is the "real story" of what happened and hence the backdrop of all that was to come? Thank you 4x4 for considering my questions. I like that you came on here and you seem to be holding your own beliefs firmly while still remaining polite. Welcome and I hope you stay around.

[Guest Anonymous]

Either 4x4 is trolling or they are positively drowning in kool-aid.

4x4 - If you're not a troll, you really need to get out of your parents' house, get yourself a life, and do some living in the real world. You say you're 22 years old, it's past time to get your own freaking hamburgers.

And cut it out with the high flown language and the "you must" this and that. We "must" do very few things, and you don't get to dictate any of them. You come across very trollish or at the very least like someone with a monumental plank up their ass. Take care of that before you try to remove splinters from someone else's ass.

[NurseNell]

I never lived like that, but i imagine it could be liberating...like if something bad happens you don't have to blame yourself. But for me it would make me feel trapped and helpless. If I wanted something in my life to change and i had to trust god/jesus i would feel like there was nothing i could do to get myself out of the situation and that would be horrible

This describes what I think it would be like also. I'm Catholic and like most Catholics I know I don't believe God influences everything. We have free will and thus it is up to us to live our lives and make our own choices.

[4x4]

Treemom: Could you clarify why God's rules are unfair? And also, what may be some other options. I'm interested in hearing them, truly. :)

Alcyone: Thank you for your welcome. :) As for your first question, I will state once again that this line of thinking is still comparitively new to me, so please be patient. I'm still sorting certain aspects out for myself. Thank you. As far as I have learned, God created Adam and later Eve as (and this is very, very poor wording, I've heard it done better) but as lower children - or younger children. They were not God, and would never be God. However, they were created to mature and grow into the likeness of His first Son, Christ. As they were not yet mature and not God, they had the ability to sin, but were winless until they took that plunge. I'm extremly sorry for my poor ability to explain. If you would like (I don't know if you're just asking out of curiosity or if you are semi-looking into this) I could recommend a book that has helped me a little bit. Again, I'm sorry I'm so poor at explaing deeper theological ideas. I have the general gist in my mind, but getting it out....I hope that sort of answered your first 2 questions? If not (not that I'll ever actually get you the sort of answer you're looking for), please let me know and I'll try and confuse you a little more. :-/

As for your final question, if you are going to believe the in the God of the Bible at all, you must believe things happened the way the Bible says. The Bible says that ALL Scripture is given by the inspiration of God and is profitable. If the Bible says it is all written by God, then either that part is lying, in which case you can trust none of it, or you must believe all of it. (Please understand the "you" is not you specifically. I'm speaking very generally here, though if you believe in Gid, it does apply to you. :) I wasn't assuming you do.)

Thank you (very much specific! ;)) for reading my answers.

Lissar: I'm unfamiliar with the term "troll." All I can think of is 3 goats crossing a bridge. :-/ lol!

Also, the "must" and "you musts". I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression. In using those terms, I was referring to what you must do if you wish to see my point of view. I was in no way intending to communicate an order or imperative command. Very sorry.

I have a life, thanks. :):) Even my own goals and future! I'm extremely excited about it!! At the moment, however, I am learning some invaluable skills from my mom converning a business I hope to begin during the next year, and to leave at the moment would be rather detrimental. Besides the fact that I have some very cute younger siblings I enjoy having crawl in bed with me on cold nights. ;) Seriously, though, thanks for your concern and advice, but my parents have no problem allowing their children to have their own lives.

[Guest Anonymous]

Lissar: I'm unfamiliar with the term "troll." All I can think of is 3 goats crossing a bridge. :-/ lol!

First off, I'm 22. Yes, I know how to write. Unfortunately, when it comes to quick paced conversations over the Internet, I don't always take the time to make my point clear. My problem. And believe it or not, I am a whole ton better than I was when I was younger. When I joined this forum, I was determined to just post a few mild opinions and just watch and learn a bit before I did any big talking. (I've enjoyed many forums since I was about 12 or 13.) Apparently I've done it again....

You're a damn liar. If you've enjoyed many forums over the last 10 years you know good and well what the word troll means in this context. And you've done what again? Acted like a douchebag on the internet?

[treemom]

Treemom: Could you clarify why God's rules are unfair? And also, what may be some other options. I'm interested in hearing them, truly. :)

Um the one that says he either has to torture his son or destroy the world? And seriously the other options? All of them! All of the options.

Personally I don't buy the concept of orginal sin and I don't think the minor sins most of us commit need redemption. In fact admitting people make mistakes and aren't perfect and that us ok seems a lot more fair than heaven and hell and Jesus and getting saved and all that crap.

If god is omnipotent he could decide the rules don't matter. If he is the big man in charge why would it matter if he got rid of them? The rule that says sin destroys and man must be redeemed by blood? It only matters if he is fair and keeps the rules if someone else is counting it,

Personally there is a lot more compassion and mercy in that then the other trappings of Christianity.

[4x4]

Lissar.

I'll forgive your implication of my lack of character, since you have been led tinthat conclusion. I have been on many forums since I was 12 or 13 - but can not recall ever having heard that term before. I have no proof, and you may certainly think what you want but I haven't. Probably the particular forums I have been on either had no need or desire of trolls or since they never pertained to me, I simply glanced over the term. (I could speak a little more fluently on the subject and perhaps give a more specific explination if I knew what they were!) I have never been on a forum of this particular sort before. They have usually been casual political, historical, or more practical forums. I tried a theological forum once, bit I'm no theological student, so needless to say that didn't last too long.

[holierthanyou]

Treemom: Could you clarify why God's rules are unfair? And also, what may be some other options. I'm interested in hearing them, truly. :)

Alcyone: Thank you for your welcome. :) As for your first question, I will state once again that this line of thinking is still comparitively new to me, so please be patient. I'm still sorting certain aspects out for myself. Thank you. As far as I have learned, God created Adam and later Eve as (and this is very, very poor wording, I've heard it done better) but as lower children - or younger children. They were not God, and would never be God. However, they were created to mature and grow into the likeness of His first Son, Christ. As they were not yet mature and not God, they had the ability to sin, but were winless until they took that plunge. I'm extremly sorry for my poor ability to explain. If you would like (I don't know if you're just asking out of curiosity or if you are semi-looking into this) I could recommend a book that has helped me a little bit. Again, I'm sorry I'm so poor at explaing deeper theological ideas. I have the general gist in my mind, but getting it out....I hope that sort of answered your first 2 questions? If not (not that I'll ever actually get you the sort of answer you're looking for), please let me know and I'll try and confuse you a little more. :-/

As for your final question, if you are going to believe the in the God of the Bible at all, you must believe things happened the way the Bible says. The Bible says that ALL Scripture is given by the inspiration of God and is profitable. If the Bible says it is all written by God, then either that part is lying, in which case you can trust none of it, or you must believe all of it. (Please understand the "you" is not you specifically. I'm speaking very generally here, though if you believe in Gid, it does apply to you. :) I wasn't assuming you do.)

Thank you (very much specific! ;)) for reading my answers.

Lissar: I'm unfamiliar with the term "troll." All I can think of is 3 goats crossing a bridge. :-/ lol!

Also, the "must" and "you musts". I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression. In using those terms, I was referring to what you must do if you wish to see my point of view. I was in no way intending to communicate an order or imperative command. Very sorry.

I have a life, thanks. :):) Even my own goals and future! I'm extremely excited about it!! At the moment, however, I am learning some invaluable skills from my mom converning a business I hope to begin during the next year, and to leave at the moment would be rather detrimental. Besides the fact that I have some very cute younger siblings I enjoy having crawl in bed with me on cold nights. ;) Seriously, though, thanks for your concern and advice, but my parents have no problem allowing their children to have their own lives.

I just wish you could have added some more smiley faces to your post. To extra-convey your joyously, deliriously happy and jubilant tone.

Edited to add: There are a lot of things I question my belief in and have doubts about. Luckily, Gid is not one of them. I am confident in my disbelief in Gid.

[Guest Anonymous]

You can shove your forgiveness up your lying ass, maybe it will stop you talking out of it for a while.

[doggie]

google is your friend

https://www.google.com/search?q=troll&i ... =firefox-a

[4x4]

Holier: I often add many smilies because I have learned that at times the intended tone of my words is often not communicated along with what I type. Sometimes, smilies help. (I know they have solved a lot of potential problems at other times.) They have also now become a habit. I'll try to tone it down if it's that irritating, but, no promises.

Lissar: You still haven't done me the courtesy of explaining what the word means.

Treemom: Again, I do not expect you to agree. Again, I'm not evangelizing. I am replying.

How can a perfectly holy and sinless God allow sin into His perfect Heaven. The only thing that would atone for sin was blood. That's it. Sin must be paid for. The spiritually dead must be raised to life. The debt for sin must be paid. The only way this debt could be paid was by blood. That's it. It had to be paid by the ultimate price - a life. A human could not give this life. Should a human die to pay this debt, it would do nothing. That human would die anyway as punishment for breaking the law. One who had broken no laws, who was absolutely sinless must willingly pay the debt. That is what Christ did.

Fair?? Fair?? What is fair? Fair would be each and every sinner actually paying for his sin. Fair would be the teeny tiny creation paying for rebelling and shaking it's fist in the very face of the one who created it. Absolutely rebelling against the very one who gave it life. Fair would be that creation being absolutely destroyed on the spot. Fair would be God removing His general grace from the world and allowing us to completely tear one another apart - which is what each and every human would do, without Christ. Every horror and every horrific idea and action would be committed with glee by every human who ever lived. That would be fair. Thankfully, He has not allowed this. He has allowed His creation continue on in a depraved manner, but not with win running free and wild. What He is allowing - common grace upon His creation - is unfair, but I much prefer it.

As you do not believe in total depravity, I know you disagree. However, as far as I can find, this is how it is. I am always learning more and may of course be wrong, but (this sounds cliche, but itbis not meant that way) I would die for this belief. I believe it is what the Bible teaches, and I will stand on it.

[Guest Anonymous]

Lissar: You still haven't done me the courtesy of explaining what the word means.

And you'll die of old age not knowing if you wait for that to happen. Learn to fucking google.

**ETA: You're still a trolling liar and I don't believe for one second that you don't know what that word means. Also edited for fuck you.

[doggie]

How can a perfectly holy and sinless God allow sin into His perfect Heaven. The only thing that would atone for sin was blood. That's it. Sin must be paid for. The spiritually dead must be raised to life. The debt for sin must be paid. The only way this debt could be paid was by blood. .

This does not really make sense. god created people to sin. if he did not then how can they sin? god screwed up and now makes people pay for his mistake. God really needs to read the Humans for dummies book.

If god did nto think humans would sin then he is a fool and as usual forgot to read the manual again.

[Guest Anonymous]

Trip Trap, Trip Trap, Over the Wooden Bridge...... :roll:

[GatorGutCasserole]

And you'll die of old age not knowing if you wait for that to happen. Learn to fucking google.

**ETA: You're still a trolling liar and I don't believe for one second that you don't know what that word means. Also edited for fuck you.

:lol: