What is it like believing that God influences everything?

[latraviata]

As for people saying God has a big plan, what exactly does he have planned for children who are born and then live brief, unhappy lives filled with disease and hunger?

And also, if God is supposedly the same one in the Old Testament I think he's messed up. Like the story of Job, which I understand is meant to make people feel better about suffering, but it doesn't show God in that good a light, IMO. He just fucks with Job because he wants to show Satan he's wrong. I realise that it's probably meant to be taken as a metaphor but it still shows God as being a total sadist.

4X4 do you believe that have any free will if God decides everything?

And if God has created everything, why did he create things like parasites and disease? Stephen Fry says it best:

I love that man!

[freejoytoo]

I would give anything to see an episode where he talks through the Duggars' 'philosophy'. He'd eat them. If they were shocked when they saw the Scotsman tell them he didn't believe in God then they ain't seen nothing yet. If Jim Bob tried to throw some 'the sun is the perfect distance from the earth' rubbish Fry wouldn't just smile, he would proceed to give them a science lesson and then the odds as to why God doesn't exist. I know it wouldn't do any good but it would be worth it just to see Fry own them and the Duggars squirm. Oh, I'd love to see Fry's reaction to 'the whole world could fit in Jacksonville, Florida'. It is BEYOND me why TLC showed that and did not include a popup about how that is so utterly ridiculous.

[JesusFightClub]

Out of curiosity, what is it with fundies and fundie lites coming over here and stating "Here are my beliefs, but don't discuss them with me because you are all meanies" and "You lucky FJists, I'm going to let you believe whatever you like"? It's really fucking annoying, and they all seem to be about twelve. Is there a factory somewhere mass producing them?

Anyway, back when I was getting my religious book learning at school, believing God was sorting you out with little things like finding some oatmeal or extra cheesecakes or a spare pair of pants would have been frowned on. God was thought of as holy and mysterious, not your best mate who lends you her mascara before a night out. And it would also have been the sin of pride, believing you're a better person than everyone else so you deserve stuff.

We were taught God was like a chess player or a general with a military strategy and we'd understand what all the moves meant one day, but not now, so just say thanks no matter what and trust him.

[pixydust]

Pixydust: I don't know why. Why do any of us have anything we have? Those little children in Africa had just as much right as I did. I don't have that answer. But neither do you. No one does.

Haligh: the principle was not about the hamburger. The principle was that I am so increadibly blessed that I can even get a hamburger. Yes, even when if I have to go out and kill the cow myself, it's still a blessing. It's ablessing all the same. And God gave me the burger, cow, life to live to eat it, hands to prepare it, teeth to eat it, energy to do all of this, and everything else. God is the giver. I did nothing for it. Why He allows others go without? I don't know. Why do others have cancer and I don't? It isn't necessarily because I treat my body better. The Lord gave me my health and can take it back any time and for any reason He desires.

Um, yes, yes I do have the answer. It's very condescending of you to think that just because I don't subscribe to your view of God that I don't have any answers. Starving kids is due to lack of distribution of wealth (but hey, I'm an evil socialist -that is different from communism). It's pathetic and morally wrong in my opinion.

I just don't get the thought process here. Yesterday, my husband's step-dad showed up at my work with a Christmas card for us with $200 in it. I'm insanely thankful, but to him, not God. Monday I will be doing some serious Christmas shopping for my kids that I couldn't afford without this money. God didn't give me $200, my father-in-law did. When I make dinner, my kids and hubby say thanks to me, the person who planned it, bought it, and cooked it. God didn't do that, I did. I bought my kids new winter hats on Friday, they thanked me, and I was thankful that corporate had put them on sale. I just don't see how God fits into this, and I believe in God, just not some big old guy who micromanages our lives.

Oh, and cancer? Sometimes it's genetics, sometimes it's how people treat their bodies, sometimes it's environmental. It sucks, but it's not some huge mystery for the most part (and the stuff that is a mystery? Well, science just hasn't caught up yet, but it will. I have a lot of faith in science. Science is good.)

[latraviata]

Continually dependent on magical thinking is fertile ground for some fucked up neurosis.

From my years and years experience as a behavioural scientist I can only say, you are absolutely right!!!

[treemom]

Well, if that's how you choose to believe, that's fine. :) To me, that's a rather random and depressing way to look at life, but apparently you have no problem with it. My beliefs don't mean God is anything. He is exactly what He says He is. What you think of him really doesn't worry Him. In fact, He even orchistrates that, so while I believe you are wrong, you go right ahead. Perhaps someday He will change your mind. Perhaps not. It will certainly be through no desire of yours, as you are very secure apparently in your beliefs. For now, I'm glad I believe in something more than random chance, but you are more than welcome to believe any way you want. :)

Unfortunately it makes you pretty crappy to believe god gave you a hamburger while he ignores the pleas of millions around the world.

[treemom]

As for people saying God has a big plan, what exactly does he have planned for children who are born and then live brief, unhappy lives filled with disease and hunger?

And also, if God is supposedly the same one in the Old Testament I think he's messed up. Like the story of Job, which I understand is meant to make people feel better about suffering, but it doesn't show God in that good a light, IMO. He just fucks with Job because he wants to show Satan he's wrong. I realise that it's probably meant to be taken as a metaphor but it still shows God as being a total sadist.

4X4 do you believe that have any free will if God decides everything?

And if God has created everything, why did he create things like parasites and disease? Stephen Fry says it best:

My brother and I had this big discussion over Job during thanksgiving. Have you seen the movie trading places? Because We talked about how basically god and Santan are betting a dollar over ruining a mans life.

[freejoytoo]

No, I haven't, but the story does not put God in a good light IMO because he is basically betting a man's life with Satan. Still I guess God does a lot of worst things in the OT, like smashing babies' heads against rocks and sending plagues on villages because he is pissed off with someone. Very loving. And furthermore, God is supposedly punishing them for their sins, but if God created everything, knows everything and is in control of everything, he knowingly created Satan or sin or however you see it, knew what would happen, caused people to do it and punished them for it. It makes no sense to me.

[treemom]

No, I haven't, but the story does not put God in a good light IMO because he is basically betting a man's life with Satan. Still I guess God does a lot of worst things in the OT, like smashing babies' heads against rocks and sending plagues on villages because he is pissed off with someone. Very loving. And furthermore, God is supposedly punishing them for their sins, but if God created everything, knows everything and is in control of everything, he knowingly created Satan or sin or however you see it, knew what would happen, caused people to do it and punished them for it. It makes no sense to me.

You should see it and keep Dan akryod in mind as job. It is so classic to that story it made me wonder if the writer wasn't inspired by job.

[genericJname]

I'll say that, as a 'kid' it did fall into liberating.

Maybe my family's version of fundie lite was especially progressive but bad things weren't seen as a punishment--they just were; just like good things weren't always a reward--they just were. Maybe my parents read more 'Job' than other fundies, but it was the assurance at all times that someone all powerful was making the right decisions.

It meant that as long as I was trying, it didn't matter if I screwed up, any attempt to aim life toward the 'right' decision would end up at the right decision--makes decisions less crippling.

It doesn't work in grown-up-logic for me though.

It was like this for me too. It wasn't so much that everything was a reward or punishment but more just all the mundane details had some kind of purpose in the epic battle for God to win out over "evil." I was a pretty hardcore Calvinist and believed that every single choice anyone made was predestined. I thought of our free will as an illusion because everything was decided already. Kind of like Cylon religion.

[genericJname]

Continually dependent on magical thinking is fertile ground for some fucked up neurosis.

Absolutely!! I think deconverting made a huge impact on my mental health. It is so quiet and peaceful in my head now that I don't have to have a full time running prayer dialog with imaginary friend Jesus. I don't have to feel in mortal danger of demonic entities. I can try to make good decisions just because I care about myself and others rather than feeling like "sin" might take over my life.

[AnnoDomini]

Ok I had a thought: if God is in control of everything, that negates the concept of free will--but what's the Biblical basis for the idea of free will at all?

[emmiedahl]

Ok I had a thought: if God is in control of everything, that negates the concept of free will--but what's the Biblical basis for the idea of free will at all?

First, because God would be a huge asshole if he planned all this on his own.

A better explanation here http://www.gregboyd.org/qa/predestinati ... free-will/ (I got it off Google, it's a Christian site, but the argument is pretty legit).

eta: THE LINK!!! herp derp

[Austin]

I have come out of the mindset and I find not thinking that way anymore very, very liberating. I don't need comfort or little formulas to live my life. It was a bit scary at first, I admit, but it's rather like flinging off a big, heavy cloak. Understanding that life just happens like it happens, and we all have good and bad happen, and there is no "deserving" or "undeserving" (other than our own making). I no longer blame God when something bad happens or thank him when something good happens. I am generally thankful for all the good things in my life and I do the best I can with any bad things. I have to take responsibility for myself.

For me personally, I find it a much more authentic way to live.

[Brainsample]

I think that how you see God and man and their relationship has a profound effect on whether the idea of God influencing everything works or not.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2 ... 7_CV_N.htm

This article and study identifies four types of the outlook people have about God.

I believe that God orders everything, but that I think that concept would be unbearable if I thought God was the Glen Beck and Sarah Palin understanding of God who is a miserable mean character who sits with a hammer and looks for nails to smash. He's so ready to give people what they deserve or to dole out punishment for failure or imperfection. I think that would suck.

I understand God as holy and well defined, but I see Him as the God who wants so much to show love and compassion to me that He came and bore my punishment before I even knew who He was or who I was. He came and went to prison and death for me so that I wouldn't ever get punishment. It's His inclination to spare me that which I deserve because of my unavoidable imperfection. There's a balance there, because this doesn't mean that he's the undefined cosmic bellhop, but it is far different than the God of punishment who makes sure people get ill when they sin and can't wait to give them what they deserve. I don't get justice. God made a choice to show me mercy which I see every day, even through the hard times. But I also make that choice and that is my disposition.

(I have been a nurse long enough to know that people who do all the things to be well get diseases they shouldn't and die, and people who have lived nasty lifestyles often live long and well while doing all of the wrong things and live through impossible circumstances. I believe it when it says that God is no respecter of persons, especially because of this experience. I don't think that people merit anything and they get a lot of benefit that they don't merit. MIracles happen and miracles often don't, and I can see no reason in who gets them.)

I also believe that I don't see from God's vantage, and I only get to see the back side of the tapestry He's weaving, and it often doesn't make sense to me. But my belief that I am a flawed and finite creature and that God is limitless and loving beyond my ability to fathom at this point makes being okay with seeing only the backside of the tapestry. I'm also glad that God calls the shots, presuming that He's omniscient and omnipotent, as well as being the author of that which is good and kind and loving, and that he figures out how to balance all that happens. We can definitely be relieved because if I'm calling the shots for me or anyone else, we're all in trouble. I'm happy to trust someone greater than me to do that planning and ordering. If God was on par with me, then we are all in big trouble.

[formergothardite]

4x4 what is your general age range? It might explain why you have a hard time presenting your point.

And do you not see how God looks like a jerk for giving you hamburgers and letting children starve to death?

[freejoytoo]

I still don't see how God being omnipotent is compatible with free will. Even if you arguing from the view point that God has just set things in motion, He still must be in control of everything, including people's actions, else He wouldn't be omnipotent, and He must know what people are going to choose else he wouldn't be omniscient. If God controls everything we do and knows what we will do how can we have any free will, if we part of some big plan? If there is only one choice we can make then surely free will is an illusion?

[maybeizfundie]

I agree with much of Brainsample's post.

I guess words and how we are using/defining them makes a big difference. I do believe God influences everything, and that there is an overall order for things, as well as an ultimate purpose/end.

But part of that order, to me, is the free will he has given us. Which results in various natural consequences. Christians might use the term "sowing and reaping" and others might call it karma. The way things work, generally, is that some actions have fairly predictable results and various statistical possibilities of results, whether they're physical or relational actions. That accounts for both a lot of the blessings and a lot of the crap in this world, because it's not just me making choices, but several billion people making choices daily that affect people around them, and not just those people but in a ripple effect both in the time they exist and sometimes through generations.

When thanking God for blessings or calling something a blessing/gift/provision/whatever, for me it's not saying God loves me more, or I deserve something more. It's acknowledging the source of all good things. Nothing to do with personal merit or deserving or even specifically with my faith. So yes, I thank God for hamburgers. :) And when my husband was living a much more deprived life, he thanked God for the good things he experienced, even if they weren't hamburgurs. As far as definitions and usage go, I actually have much more of a problem with the health/wealth/prosperity gospel types because they are clear and blatant that money/health/success are a direct result of particular formulaic prayers/actions or a certain practice of faith, whereas most fundies I know IRL use the terms the way I do, separating personal merit from blessing and using it as a way to verbalize thanks rather than a way to self-promote. So I guess personal experience also influences how we view people who believe this or use this kind of terminology.

Re: omnipotence--I have usually seen it defined as "all powerful", rather than "all controlling". Being all powerful isn't in conflict with free-will, IMO.

[dawbs]

I agree with much of Brainsample's post.

*snip*

Re: omnipotence--I have usually seen it defined as "all powerful", rather than "all controlling". Being all powerful isn't in conflict with free-will, IMO.

At first blush, I liked that argument--when I was first exposed to it.

And it became the whole 'these are 2 parallel lines, they don't contradict/intersect and both exist" thing.

And then I tried to apply it...

If I assume the book of James is truth, and James 4:17 is truth (paraphrased, "One who sees the good in the world one ought to do and chooses nt to do it sins") then I find my God holding himself to a much weaker standard than the one he holds the rest of us too...because all powerful and seeing evil happening and doing nothing to stop it is pretty on par with doing evil and by God's own word it is 'sin'.

(I'm not trying to be argumentative, it's one of my current struggles of faith)

[maybeizfundie]

This could go on a rabbit trail, hopefully in answering I'm not taking the thread where the OP didn't want it to go. I do understand the difficulty. But to me, it assumes that percieved inaction (from the perspective of finite human beings) is true inaction (on the part of an infinite being). Or that the action of that divine being is judgeable (is that a word? lol) by finite human beings as adequate or not. Christianity says God *has* done something--the ultimate good, even--so even applying that particular command which was made to humans to God doesn't work for me. I'm not saying there's a pat, easy answer. That's just the direction my head goes with that particular question.

[dawbs]

FreeJinger allows rabbit trails.

[lilwriter85]

This is interesting thread and there are some good insightful posts on different beliefs.

I'm an atheist but I was raised Catholic. My friends and relatives who believe in a God have various opinions on whether God controls or influences everything. When I was a a believer I didn't really believe that God controlled everything. This discussion thread reminds me of a blog that I check out a few times a week. The blogger is a quadriplegic woman who seems to be Mormon fundie lite. She had several posts talking about the car accident that caused her injury and I always found the post on the driver who hurt to be strange because the blogger feels God chose that person to change her life. I can't imagine God or a deity choosing for someone to accidentally cause something bad to happen. Here what the blogger said.

paralyzedwithjoy.blogspot.com/2010/02/dear-driver.html

Dear Driver

In this post I want to share some of my feelings about the driver that ran the red light, hit my car and changed my life forever. People have often told me that they've been curious how I feel about the person that hit me, but they usually don't feel comfortable bringing it up because it seems to be a taboo thing to ask about. The driver was a 17 year old girl. She wasn't drunk or under the influence of illegal drugs or anything like that. I assume she just let her attention slip for a minute and before she knew what was happening the damage was done.

I hold absolutely no ill will or bad feelings in my heart for this girl. I never have and I never will. I know that my car accident was no accident, and that becoming paralyzed was something that was supposed to happen to me. I don't believe that most major things that happen in a person's life are coincidence. That being said, I have often wondered why God chose this particular person to be the one to impact my life in such a major way.

My mom hired a lawyer after my accident and we were thinking about possibly suing the girl and her family (since she was a minor at the time) but when our lawyer found out that the girl came from a family of average means, I told the lawyer that I wasn't interested in pursuing the matter any further. You might think that suing the family sounds vindictive, but being disabled is very expensive, so if the girl came from a wealthy family, it would've been nice to get some sort of settlement. But like I said, when I found out that the girl didn't come from a wealthy family, I didn't want the legal matters to go any further. there was no reason to try to get my "revenge" by ruining this girls future.

I know if our situations had been reversed and I had been the one to run a red light and paralyze someone from the neck down, I would feel like I had ruined their life. However, I don't want the girl to feel this way so I hope she doesn't, because it's not true; my life isn't ruined. Yes, the car accident was the worst thing to happen to me physically, but it was the best thing to happen to me spiritually and emotionally, and I honestly wouldn't go back and change things even if I could. I've learned so much and gained so much, and those things far outweigh all of the physical things I've lost.

I've also had a couple people ask me if I forgive the girl. I don't think there's any reason for forgiveness in this situation. The girl just happened to make a mistake. I know the girl wasn't intending to do anything wrong or trying to hurt anyone.

The one thing I hope this girl does take away from the car accident is to always be a cautious driver. I actually hope that everyone that drives is a careful driver, but there are so many people who are way too reckless when they drive, and it usually isn't until some sort of accident occurs that they remember to slow down and be more cautious behind the wheel.

My hope is that everyone who reads this post will remember to be safe drivers!

[QAF_Rocks]

It seems like it would be an extremely intense way to live. Life would be some big puzzle, and you'd constantly be trying to figure out what was really going on behind the scenes. I don't understand the mindset at all. The fundies take it to extremes, but even moderate and liberal religious people baffle me a lot of the time. I guess I just can't relate to the types of questions they have.

[4x4]

Hi!

Well, I checked back here either Friday night or Saturday morning and no one else had posted so I thought the thread was dead. My mistake has lead to a lot of people asking me questions. I'll try to get them all, but I promise nothing.

First off, I'm 22. Yes, I know how to write. Unfortunately, when it comes to quick paced conversations over the Internet, I don't always take the time to make my point clear. My problem. And believe it or not, I am a whole ton better than I was when I was younger. When I joined this forum, I was determined to just post a few mild opinions and just watch and learn a bit before I did any big talking. (I've enjoyed many forums since I was about 12 or 13.) Apparently I've done it again....

Secondly, there seemed (in my quick glance through of recent posts on this thread) to have been a lot of "free will" comments or questions. First off, I'm rather new at the God's in control of Salvation belief. My family sort of never tackled that one when it came to God being in control of everything. We very recently began studying the Scriptures concerning this point, and only after a very devistating and traumatic event. All that to say, I'm very willing to admit that I may not have all the answers. I don't believe in free will. I believe, very simply, that all men are born with a sin nature, in rebellion to God. They are dead Spiritually. They can do nothing. I believe that, in view of this, God sent His Son, obviously Christ, to earth. Christ did not die for Sinners. He died for His Father. The consequences of His obedience opened the way to God for us, as God knew it would. Not that Christ didn't love us. Please don't think I am minimizing Christ's love for His people. I believe that God loves his entire creation, and in doing so, He provides common grace for it. Meaning, because of common grace, sin does not utterly physically destroy the earth and all that it contains. Neither are all unregenerate men absolute demons (figuratively) on earth. They may be moral, good (in the earthly sense), and may do good things. However, while they are unregenerate, they are still spiritually dead and evil at heart and continue in their rebellion towards God. This may not be a deliberate concious "I will defy God", but it is in their very fabric. Those whom God chooses (for His own reasons. No clue why, and I struggled with this for 3 years), are quickened in their spririts, and can then choose to accept God's gift. However, I don't believe they have a choice. God all powerful, and is not going to say, "Here is my gift. I hope you take it. I'm so worried you won't!" If this is His attitude, He is not God.

I can't remember any other questions or comments. Sorry. I'll try to go back later for any I missed. (I'm just a tad busy right now. I only stopped by real quickly and saw this thread had recent activity.)

But, I do have a question. I'm not being sarcastic, I'm trying to get into you people's heads. (sorry, I've always been a bit dense. I hate it)

How the heck is my believing that God chose, for some reason, to bless me in any way big or small while there are so many without and more wrong than people here who say that they have something because they did something for it.(worked, got up and got it, whatever.) To me that sounds like you're so good because you did this and that and if other people would just apply themselves they cod have it, too. Or if they just had friends like yours who would give them things, or if they would just get a job like yours they could get things, or whatever. I'm not being abrasive here. I'm trying to figure out why that is any different. At least I am showing gratitude instead of patting myself of the back. And that is not self praise. I'm trying very hard to see why what I believe is so wrong in your eyes...?

[4x4]

Oh, and I have mo doubt many of you will not understand (emotinally, not the actual words) my view of Salvation. Like I said, I struggled and searched Scripture for 3 years before I even began to understand how that could be anything but horrible. I finally discovered I had been trying to fit the puzzle pieces into the wrong puzzle. It was absolutely amazing once I discovered the right puzzle!