What is it like believing that God influences everything?

[Haligh the Liar]

Not the title I wanted, but I ran out of room.

In any case, we constantly read about fundies talking about how God/Jesus influence/control every single detail of their lives, no matter how minute.

Examples: Maxwells talking abput Jesus blessing them with burritos, the grace of God allowing Uriah to be fixed, etc.

Also, Dougie going on about the men of Pearl Harbor following biblical manhood, motivated by God, as opposed to being drafted and possibly motivated by patriotism, etc.

I'm agnostic, raised Catholic, but even when I was religious I never looked at the world this way. Sure, I would pray and occassionally thank God for things, but I can not fathom thinking things like "I thought I was out of cereal this morning, but Jesus led me to look behind the oatmeal, and I found a whole new box! God is great!" Anything that I would attribute to luck, randomness, the kindness of strangers, coincidence, etc, is all the micromanaging hand of the lord. All human agency seems to be removed.

So, what is it like to live like this? I'm wondering if this is a way to deny responsibility- if God "laid on your heart" to do something, and it goes horribly, how can it be your fault?

[ElphabaGalinda]

I never lived like that, but i imagine it could be liberating...like if something bad happens you don't have to blame yourself. But for me it would make me feel trapped and helpless. If I wanted something in my life to change and i had to trust god/jesus i would feel like there was nothing i could do to get myself out of the situation and that would be horrible

[holierthanyou]

I never lived like that, but i imagine it could be liberating...like if something bad happens you don't have to blame yourself. But for me it would make me feel trapped and helpless. If I wanted something in my life to change and i had to trust god/jesus i would feel like there was nothing i could do to get myself out of the situation and that would be horrible

I would not use the word 'liberating' to describe it. The common interpretation I am familiar with is if something bad happens it means that God controlled it that way as a direct result of your sin. So if someone scratches your car in a parking lot, it is probably because God is trying to humble you and punish you for an unrepented sin. You then spend a significant amount of time trying to discern what your sin is that you haven't repented of yet. It causes a lot of worry and guilt. At least in my experience.

[Crackedeggs]

I tried like hell to grasp that concept and live like that, but I couldn't do it. My theological reasoning for it was that bad shit happens because we live in a fallen world, not necessarily because I picked my nose while I was praying today, or forgot to do my morning bible verse reading.

[holierthanyou]

I tried like hell to grasp that concept and live like that, but I couldn't do it. My theological reasoning for it was that bad shit happens because we live in a fallen world, not necessarily because I picked my nose while I was praying today, or forgot to do my morning bible verse reading.

Ha, I've tried like hell NOT to live like that but I can't quite seem to shake it. Some Fundy habits that start in childhood seem almost impossible to shake off!

[doggie]

it seems great until god has used you all he wants and disposes of you. Kind of like Michele's infant she lost.

[latraviata]

Not the title I wanted, but I ran out of room.

In any case, we constantly read about fundies talking about how God/Jesus influence/control every single detail of their lives, no matter how minute.

Examples: Maxwells talking abput Jesus blessing them with burritos, the grace of God allowing Uriah to be fixed, etc.

Also, Dougie going on about the men of Pearl Harbor following biblical manhood, motivated by God, as opposed to being drafted and possibly motivated by patriotism, etc.

I'm agnostic, raised Catholic, but even when I was religious I never looked at the world this way. Sure, I would pray and occassionally thank God for things, but I can not fathom thinking things like "I thought I was out of cereal this morning, but Jesus led me to look behind the oatmeal, and I found a whole new box! God is great!" Anything that I would attribute to luck, randomness, the kindness of strangers, coincidence, etc, is all the micromanaging hand of the lord. All human agency seems to be removed.

So, what is it like to live like this? I'm wondering if this is a way to deny responsibility- if God "laid on your heart" to do something, and it goes horribly, how can it be your fault?

It must be so easy to find an explanation for everything. You don't have to think for yourself.

This I always find a nice example of utter stupidity and ignorance:

[Talking about modern-day Loaves & Fishes miracles...]

I personally have seen this happen......

I was on a ladies' committee at a church...at the time we would have no more than 60 lady's come to our meetings. We decided to have cheesecakes for one of the meetings. I did the calling for the cakes, saw the number and divided them to be served. Why we thought at the time, each lady would take one piece only I don't know. This had to be over 15 years ago now.

The lines came to the table and we saw ladies taking 2-3 pieces each and thought what are we going to do there is just not going to be enough to go around. Well there was and many pieces left over......and all ladies were in the line.

All ladies on the committee agreed without a doubt the cheesecake was multipied, there was just no other way there was pieces left over. We still talk about that night.

[Marian the Librarian]

I don't know if they really believe it - but I think they use it as a mechanism to shove their message down people's throats every 15 seconds.

[Guest Anonymous]

I think the belief that God influences everything is conveniently confounded by the fact that Satan is waging war at the same time. So you need a righteous fundie man to hear from God and interpret the situation correctly.

So when the Maxwell's bus breaks down, sinks into the road, or gets caught up in a snow blizzard. it is NOT because God has influenced the situation, but because he has allowed Satan to test them, so that they can ultimately overcome the trial and bring glory to God.... or summat like that. :shock:

[FuManchu]

That's superb. When it's a choice between "God magically provided more cheesecake because hey, what else would he do with his time?" and "I'm not very good at arithmetic", naturally it must be the former.

[Sola]

Not the title I wanted, but I ran out of room.

In any case, we constantly read about fundies talking about how God/Jesus influence/control every single detail of their lives, no matter how minute.

Examples: Maxwells talking abput Jesus blessing them with burritos, the grace of God allowing Uriah to be fixed, etc.

Also, Dougie going on about the men of Pearl Harbor following biblical manhood, motivated by God, as opposed to being drafted and possibly motivated by patriotism, etc.

I'm agnostic, raised Catholic, but even when I was religious I never looked at the world this way. Sure, I would pray and occassionally thank God for things, but I can not fathom thinking things like "I thought I was out of cereal this morning, but Jesus led me to look behind the oatmeal, and I found a whole new box! God is great!" Anything that I would attribute to luck, randomness, the kindness of strangers, coincidence, etc, is all the micromanaging hand of the lord. All human agency seems to be removed.

So, what is it like to live like this? I'm wondering if this is a way to deny responsibility- if God "laid on your heart" to do something, and it goes horribly, how can it be your fault?

I wish I knew where they come up with stuff like this. I find it quite arrogant actually. The Maxwells are such spechul snowflakes in god's eyes that he answers their prayers for burritos but some poor starving child in Sudan gets zilch. If that's the case then god is a twat.

[Arielkay]

That's superb. When it's a choice between "God magically provided more cheesecake because hey, what else would he do with his time?" and "I'm not very good at arithmetic", naturally it must be the former.

ROFL! The magical cheesecakes. WTF are these people smoking?

[MamaJunebug]

I tried like hell to grasp that concept and live like that, but I couldn't do it. My theological reasoning for it was that bad shit happens because we live in a fallen world, not necessarily because I picked my nose while I was praying today, or forgot to do my morning bible verse reading.

That's just how I believe.

I don't know if they really believe it - but I think they use it as a mechanism to shove their message down people's throats every 15 seconds.

That's just what I believe about Steve Maxwell and his followers.

So when the Maxwell's bus breaks down, sinks into the road, or gets caught up in a snow blizzard. it is NOT because God has influenced the situation, but because he has allowed Satan to test them, so that they can ultimately overcome the trial and bring glory to God.... or summat like that.

That's because it isn't that Steve made the incredibly dumb decision to drive over permafrost in a gazillion-ton bus, it's God permitting Satan to tempt Steve, et.al. It isn't because Steve's male parts and male mind react naturally (or overreact) to the stimulus of the sight of a female, it's the female being where she shouldn't be (at work) and dressed in a satanic way (skirt above the ankle, shoes with a heel).

[latraviata]

I wish I knew where they come up with stuff like this. I find it quite arrogant actually. The Maxwells are such spechul snowflakes in god's eyes that he answers their prayers for burritos but some poor starving child in Sudan gets zilch. If that's the case then god is a twat.

Exactly what my late husband used to say, if there is a god, well than it is a very sadistic one.

But indeed, people are starving, are homeless, victims of natural disaster, you name it, but the god of the ladies club is concerned about the cheesecake :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[dawbs]

I'll say that, as a 'kid' it did fall into liberating.

Maybe my family's version of fundie lite was especially progressive but bad things weren't seen as a punishment--they just were; just like good things weren't always a reward--they just were. Maybe my parents read more 'Job' than other fundies, but it was the assurance at all times that someone all powerful was making the right decisions.

It meant that as long as I was trying, it didn't matter if I screwed up, any attempt to aim life toward the 'right' decision would end up at the right decision--makes decisions less crippling.

It doesn't work in grown-up-logic for me though.

[pixydust]

I would not use the word 'liberating' to describe it. The common interpretation I am familiar with is if something bad happens it means that God controlled it that way as a direct result of your sin. So if someone scratches your car in a parking lot, it is probably because God is trying to humble you and punish you for an unrepented sin. You then spend a significant amount of time trying to discern what your sin is that you haven't repented of yet. It causes a lot of worry and guilt. At least in my experience.

Erg!! I had an entire post written about this and I wasn't paying attention and Kaplooey! It's lost in the interwebs. Crap.

Ok, ITA with this. I was raised this way, and as a child I found it scary, stressful, and guilt inducing. Whenever you teach children magical thinking, there is going to be a problem. I was scared that if I sinned, we wouldn't have enough food, or my mom would die. When things happened that reinforced this, it got bigger in my head. For example, I hated my then-step-father because he abused me....and he lost his job. My fault. When my parents had to file bankruptsy when I was a teen (due to having to max out credit cards while he was out of work, huge medical bills with no insurance while he was out of work, etc) it was because I had had an abortion (at 14, because of the bastard of a step-father). I'm 34 and have been out of it for 15 years, and I still struggle with this. I once told my husband that my good karma couldn't outway all of his bad karma and it was fucking up our lives.....I was very serious.

To make a long post short, the belief that God provides/punishes based on your good works or his love for you will drive you nuts trying to keep up with it!

[MamaJunebug]

Exactly what my late husband used to say, if there is a god, well than it is a very sadistic one.

But indeed, people are starving, are homeless, victims of natural disaster, you name it, but the god of the ladies club is concerned about the cheesecake :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yeah....sad sigh, seriously sad sigh. That is why we don't listen to people who have a very narrow worldview when it comes to asking questions about the hardest thiings in life - suffering of the innocent, injustice. I don't believe God is either a twat nor sadistic .... I don't have the answers. Nor do the cheesecake-sated ladies nor does Steve Maxwell. This, I believe, is why we listen to learned teachers who've devoted their lives and intellects to understanding good and evil; this is why we don't go to cheesecake ladies or cheesecake-avoiding Steve.

Get it? Steve avoids both kinds of cheesecake....boy, sometimes I'm brilliant and I don't even try. :whistle:

[AnnoDomini]

Speaking as someone who does believe that God influences everything, I can say it's very comforting. I personally am not thinking of God's influence every moment of the day (as in the cereal/oatmeal example) but for example, when something I don't like happens that was out of my control, it really helps me to accept it and move on when I think, 'why did God have this happen?' and then realize, maybe God had this happen so I would remember Him and how He is in control of everything.

Just so you know, I'm not offended at all by the question, and I'm not trying to make people believe like I do.

[Fundiefoodie]

Hey, I've lurked since just before the board was raptured, and now, almost a year later, am posting for the first time! I suppose I should have done an intro thread, but oh well. Here I am! I was raised fundie medium-fundie lite depending on who you talk to, and now I don't know who the heck I am. I'm not a fan of labels, so is it OK to just say I am what I am?? :) Some of you will probably call me fundie, but I have a good fundie friend who calls me a feminist, so I don't really know... :D Anyway, here's my two cents worth on the topic:

I believe in a God who is the source of everything that exists, and is personally connected with the things He has put into place. Because sin entered the world through humankind, God gave His perfect Son, Jesus, to die for our sin. That means that when Jesus died, he essentially gave us His righteousness and took on our sin, so when God sees us, He sees Christ's righteousness. When Jesus rose from the dead, he conquered the sin that was put on him.

So because of that, I see all events, both in the world in general, and in my own life, to be both something that God is in control of and something that is for my ultimate good, even if it's not good at the time. God in the end works ALL things for our good. I know the implications of this are really complex but I'm trying to keep this post succinct.

A lot of fundies I know or know of are confused about how this applies in real life. Many conservative christian fundies talk out of two sides of their mouths about God. They will say they are covered by grace, but then look at something bad that happened and conclude that it must be because of so and so's sin, whether it's a tsunami or cancer. This view saddens me, because it doesn't take into account that our sin is covered, paid for. I also think people who go on and on about how GOOD God is because he gave them a front-row parking space (or enough cheesecake) are also missing the point. I mean, sure, I'm thankful when I'm able to get a close parking space, but to say that God mainly exists to give His people great parking places is a kind of shallow view of God. At the very least, it's not a realistic view of God. It's a lot harder to be thankful for a bad situation. whether it's a far away parking spot or a life-threatening illness, but I am learning to see that "our good" isn't always "our immediate good". As for starving people in other countries, that is a very difficult situation for sure. I would say it's a result of sin that God permits. I will still wonder why God doesn't just shower these people with food if he is so totally capable. The only thing I can think of is that perhaps God wants those people He has blessed with more than enough cheesecake to get off their duffs and start sharing their blessings with people who need it more than they do. It's a pity all they can do is just sit and blog about how blessed they are instead of looking at the needs around them.

So that's my two cents worth....

[donks]

ROFL! The magical cheesecakes. WTF are these people smoking?

FUCK ME CROOKED!!!!! Sign me up for some of this neverending supply of cheesecake!

[StarrieEyedKat]

FUCK ME CROOKED!!!!! Sign me up for some of this neverending supply of cheesecake!

Really, I love that these women are arrogant enough to think that God multiplied their dessert but he can't be bothered to multiply food for people that are truly going hungry. The self-centeredness of these people...

[Sunnichick31]

Although I have never taken it to a OMG CHEESECAKE!!!!!11!!!! level, it is nice knowing that God is in control of everything, and He has a reason for everything he does, even if it's not obvious to me. For example-car won't start. Ok, it's a pain in the neck, but for all I know, maybe God is saving me from a horrific traffic accident, or maybe because of the delay in my car starting, I'll be in the right place at the right time and something awesome will happen, or maybe He's bored and is messing with me. Maybe it's none of the above and he's just trying to teach me patience. It can be frustrating to not know why something is happening, but I try to think that there IS a reason and maybe someday I'll learn it.

Edited to add-Sorry I sinned. Hope the camp doesn't suffer because of it.

[pixydust]

Although I have never taken it to a OMG CHEESECAKE!!!!!11!!!! level, it is nice knowing that God is in control of everything, and He has a reason for everything he does, even if it's not obvious to me. For example-car won't start. Ok, it's a pain in the neck, but for all I know, maybe God is saving me from a horrific traffic accident, or maybe because of the delay in my car starting, I'll be in the right place at the right time and something awesome will happen, or maybe He's bored and is messing with me. Maybe it's none of the above and he's just trying to teach me patience. It can be frustrating to not know why something is happening, but I try to think that there IS a reason and maybe someday I'll learn it.

Edited to add-Sorry I sinned. Hope the camp doesn't suffer because of it.

Or maybe you left your head lights on...or the battery terminals are corraded.

What does it mean if your car won't start and by the time you get on the road you are in a horrible car accident?

[MrsYoungie]

I wonder what the magic cheesecake ladies would think of the alternative interpretation I heard of the loaves and fishes story.

I can't remember where I heard this but the story goes that the miracle was not in the basket of food but in the hearts of the multitude. The people who said they didn't have anything were lying and that when the little boy gave all the food he had brought, they were ashamed and as the basket passed by them they put food in rather than taking food out so that there was more and more food all the time. Sort of like an olden days pot luck supper.

I wish more ministers would preach it that way because it's actually more impressive to change someone's heart than to just magic them up some foods.

[MamaJunebug]

Although I have never taken it to a OMG CHEESECAKE!!!!!11!!!! level, it is nice knowing that God is in control of everything, and He has a reason for everything he does, even if it's not obvious to me. For example-car won't start. Ok, it's a pain in the neck, but for all I know, maybe God is saving me from a horrific traffic accident, or maybe because of the delay in my car starting, I'll be in the right place at the right time and something awesome will happen, or maybe He's bored and is messing with me. Maybe it's none of the above and he's just trying to teach me patience. It can be frustrating to not know why something is happening, but I try to think that there IS a reason and maybe someday I'll learn it.

Edited to add-Sorry I sinned. Hope the camp doesn't suffer because of it.

Sunnichick!!! So glad to see you in this convo!!! Pleae, may I ask: What is the Muslim teaching on this sort of thing? How do people in Islam see God working in their everyday lives?

I've been very curious to know, but have not been able to ask any of my acquaintances in your faith, here. TIA!!!