What is it like believing that God influences everything?

[treemom]

This question is why I can't believe in a god that moves and acts in this world.

[Witsec7]

Oh my soul!!

Experiencedd: No I am not a whatever student. What in the world? We were discussing my craving for hamburger (of all things to discuss on this thread), so I was obviously talking about "before now" in the month I have been craving them. Not to be abrasive here, but must we continue to dominate this thread with my burgers? The point of my example was not HOW LONG I'd been craving them, but just the very fact that I knew what they were in order to crave them and that, no matter at what point of my cravings, I was able to HAVE THEM. Please, as a newcomer on this board, it's very embarrassing to have so much of a thread devoted to my burger cravings and the menu at my house. I'm sorry if somehow I wasn't clear, but I was just giving an example and never dreamed the details of my craving a hamburger would cause so much discussion.

And just for my info stash, what is a SODRT student?

You're kinda pissy chica and as I've said before you could try to be a bit more clear when you write something. So it sounds like you have some problems, I merely was attempting to gain an understanding of why god was involved in something so petty as a hamburger you craved. Seems to me with death, famine, pollution he/she/it would have their hands full with bigger issues. The fact that you think you are a speshul snowflake and attribute getting a burger for dinner as an act of god really demeans this all encompassing omnipotent deity.

See I'm not a speshul snowflake. I can make a hamburger if I choose to. I dare say that prior to the age of 12 my DD was quite capable of managing to acquire a burger-god had nothing to do with it.

Try the board index and see if you can find a glossary and take a moment to read the rules.

Now if you wanna try handslapping this old girl I suggest you prepare to get your ass kicked.

[bellicosebroad]

And just for my info stash, what is a SODRT student?

One who was taught at the School of the Dining Room Table (Duggar reference, fundie inadequate homeschooling). "Everyone say 'per-pen-DI-cu-lar'!" ;)

[Crackedeggs]

I don't get what the big deal is behind a hamburger. I can go get them at Mc Donalds OR Burger King for a buck, whenever I want. You haven't had a buck when you were driving past a fast food joint for a month?????

[flojo]

I used to live like this and I felt trapped. I felt as if everything was precariously balance, and one step off it would all come crashing down. In planning for my future, it was like I felt guilty about wanting to do the things I was good at, and use my mind. When I stopped believing it was liberating. Suddenly all I had achieved was what I had worked or and achieve, not due to pure luck...

[bellicosebroad]

But the problem is, why does god decide to let you live a life of food, housing and clothing while millions others don't have that simply because if the luck of birth?

Because he's an asshole who doesn't give you those things *until* you believe in him (or is just testing your faith even if you do believe in him and are suffering).

Which further begs this analysis: Okay, so God is "perfect," right? But if God is so perfect, why does he have an ego (given that the human ego is part of why we're frail and imperfect)? And yes, he *does* have an ego, because if he didn't, he wouldn't give a shit whether or not you believed in him in order to be saved or have hamburgers magically appear when you want them. You could believe in him or not, and things would still be magically wonderful always, and you'd get to go to heaven when you died, sin or not, and play harps and eat chocolate.

So, it can't be both. EITHER God is perfect, in which case he doesn't have an ego and doesn't give a shit whether or not you believe in him, have sinned or are "saved;" you'll still get to go to heaven. OR he's an egotistical asshole who demands that you believe in him and kiss his as... er, worship him in order to be saved and go to heaven. But if he's the latter, that means he's got an ego. And if he's got an ego, he's sure as hell not perfect. And if he's not perfect, then he can't be God.

[4x4]

Ok, Experiencedd, let me start over. My entire point with the burger is that I'm blessed. The fact that I was born in America, and not only that but into the family that I was born into was none of my doing. I believe that God did that. My family and I have been through some tough times. My dad even almost lost his hand (a VERY essential part of his working ability since contracting and construction was about the only way he knows to make enough money.) I remember times when we couldn't afford meat. The fact that I a.) live in America b.) in a family who can even buy the fixings for burgers and c.) that we have the ability to make them at any time means I am blessed, and God is the one who blessed us. Not because of anything we did, he just did. We had to work hard to get to where we are, we had those who helped us. We didn't just sit around and whine. But, we got through the hard times and can now get burgers. That was the only point I was trying to make, without making a whole background post. Even in the hard times, when we literally only had beans, a whole ton of stuff went right and we weren't nearly as bad off as we could have been or as other people were. The point is, if your life is even bearable, your blessed. When you can have burgers, your super blessed. I'm very sorry if I haven't been clearer.

I think I'll just shut up. :-P Apparently I'm not that great a communicator when it comes to over the Internet discussions. And thank you, I will read the rules. I think I missed them, maybe? Did I break one already? :( I'm sorry...

[Guest Anonymous]

Only my second post here, and I never did post an intro. Sorry, people. :-/

When this question is asked, I am always puzzled why? I mean, I see a lot of points on the other side here, but guess to me it's such a fundamental principle I jut don't get how you can live without it!

*snip*

As for God caring about little things, I believe he does. While I don't believe we should take this to a sacreligous extent (Oh! Look! God is making me put purple toe nail polish on today!) I don't believe that that is out of His realm. He orchistrates every detail of life, but to publicly make a big deal out of it sort of rings of fun-making.

On the other hand, I've been craving hamburgers for a month, and today, out of the blue, I'm being blessed with hamburgers for supper! And yes, it is a blessing, especially since there ARE thousands around the world getting nothing to eat today, let alone hamburgers. And it ain't a reward for something I've done, either!

Ok. I'm done. :)

Towards the tail end of the time I was a Christian, the idea that God was in control of things was probably the thing I could have most lived without. I really struggled with the idea of thanking God for my cheeseburger, knowing He was in control of a world where other people were starving.

How do you recognise that and celebrate the 'blessing', knowing that he is arbitrarily NOT blessing others?

[Constance Vigilance]

Towards the tail end of the time I was a Christian, the idea that God was in control of things was probably the thing I could have most lived without. I really struggled with the idea of thanking God for my cheeseburger, knowing He was in control of a world where other people were starving.

How do you recognise that and celebrate the 'blessing', knowing that he is arbitrarily NOT blessing others?

Because 4x4 is special, obviously! So special that her preference for a certain food is more important to God than another person's life, which could be saved by the same food.

[4x4]

Why can I not just be thankful? I am not special. I have no idea why God gives me food, and not others. Why does anything happen or not happen? Why do you have a job and others don't? Why, when 3 people applied for a job was my dad and another turned down and the one person chosen? Why are some babies born healthy, and some aren't? I certainly didn't give myself the ability to get a hamburger. I'm thankful for that ability. The alternative is, "Others don't have food. God, don't give me food - let alone something I love - because there are horrible problems in the world. Wow, I hate you for giving me a burger instead of oatmeal, or even instead of nothing. I have a burger, wow you are one aweful fellow."

Gee, yep, that's the way to handle it. I'm not understanding what other attitude, besides the one I have, you would want me to have. Could you spell it out, please, and I'll consider it.

[Witsec7]

I used to live like this and I felt trapped. I felt as if everything was precariously balance, and one step off it would all come crashing down. In planning for my future, it was like I felt guilty about wanting to do the things I was good at, and use my mind. When I stopped believing it was liberating. Suddenly all I had achieved was what I had worked or and achieve, not due to pure luck...

Continually dependent on magical thinking is fertile ground for some fucked up neurosis.

[Constance Vigilance]

In fairness, I'm mostly just devil's advocating to avoid writing a paper, so I'll stop dicking about and leave yous to it.

[doggie]

Speaking as someone who does believe that God influences everything, I can say it's very comforting. I personally am not thinking of God's influence every moment of the day (as in the cereal/oatmeal example) but for example, when something I don't like happens that was out of my control, it really helps me to accept it and move on when I think, 'why did God have this happen?' and then realize, maybe God had this happen so I would remember Him and how He is in control of everything.

Just so you know, I'm not offended at all by the question, and I'm not trying to make people believe like I do.

so if god screws you over it is because he wants to prove he is in charge? How screwed up is that? what a nice loving god.

[doggie]

But the problem is, why does god decide to let you live a life of food, housing and clothing while millions others don't have that simply because if the luck of birth?

Because they know all the speical words and rituals and read the right book to get gods attention.

[Haligh the Liar]

I am so glad people responded to this- I was afraid it would wither and die, like Sarah Maxwell's hopes of getting laid. Special thanks to the people who do hold this belief, because it is quite foreign to my experience.

4x4, let me try to explain why I disagree with/don't understand your hamburger anecdote as an illustration.

You say you were 'blessed' with hamburgers, after wanting them for a month. I assume your mom made them for dinner one night, without you mentioning that you'd like that for a meal. I would interpret that as coincidence- maybe your mom was at the store that week and noticed that ground beef was on sale or something.

More importantly, would you still believe God blessed you with hamburgers if the first day you wanted them, you asked your mom, and she agreed to make them the next day? Or if you decided to stop at McDonald's for lunch right when you wanted to eat a burger? It seems that all agency is removed, so everything must be attributed to God. Maybe that's the point.

I do understand being grateful- I often run through a list of things for which I am thankful (health, family, education, financial security, Cardinals winning the World Series, etc). However, being thankful doesn't extend to assuming that a deity has control of everything. Again, what about those who aren't 'blessed' with food, or safety, or anything? How does that fit in to this worldview?

[4x4]

Haligh, let me explain.

My comment about wanting the burger for a month was really extra information that has apparently been confusing and I should never have added that. My apologies. I should have just said this:

I like hamburgers. Love them. I am having them for dinner tonight. I am thankful God has blessed me with that ability. I am so sorry for those who don't have food, let alone burgers. That sounds trite, but I'm very serious. When I have the oportunity to, I do what I can to help those less fortunate.

As for those who have no food, I don't know why I have food and others do. Just like I don't know why I wasn't involved in the horrible car crash down the road. I'm just thankful myself and my family are alive and that we have time left to enjoy together. :)

[treemom]

Why can I not just be thankful? I am not special. I have no idea why God gives me food, and not others. Why does anything happen or not happen? Why do you have a job and others don't? Why, when 3 people applied for a job was my dad and another turned down and the one person chosen? Why are some babies born healthy, and some aren't? I certainly didn't give myself the ability to get a hamburger. I'm thankful for that ability. The alternative is, "Others don't have food. God, don't give me food - let alone something I love - because there are horrible problems in the world. Wow, I hate you for giving me a burger instead of oatmeal, or even instead of nothing. I have a burger, wow you are one aweful fellow."

Gee, yep, that's the way to handle it. I'm not understanding what other attitude, besides the one I have, you would want me to have. Could you spell it out, please, and I'll consider it.

I can be grateful and humble without thinking there is a sky daddy up there fucking around with people. I am humble and grateful and charitable because i recognize much of what I have isn't due to some intrinsic value god has in me. I call it luck.

[4x4]

Treemom: that's fine. I didn't ask you to agree with me. I didn't try to convince anyone to agree. I just stated my thoughts, just like everyone else. Albeit, I disn't state it as clearly as I should have. ;) Trust me to mess up if there is a possibility to do it.

[treemom]

Treemom: that's fine. I didn't ask you to agree with me. I didn't try to convince anyone to agree. I just stated my thoughts, just like everyone else. Albeit, I disn't state it as clearly as I should have. ;) Trust me to mess up if there is a possibility to do it.

And I am explaining why your god is an asshole.

[pixydust]

Ok, Experiencedd, let me start over. My entire point with the burger is that I'm blessed. The fact that I was born in America, and not only that but into the family that I was born into was none of my doing. I believe that God did that. My family and I have been through some tough times. My dad even almost lost his hand (a VERY essential part of his working ability since contracting and construction was about the only way he knows to make enough money.) I remember times when we couldn't afford meat. The fact that I a.) live in America b.) in a family who can even buy the fixings for burgers and c.) that we have the ability to make them at any time means I am blessed, and God is the one who blessed us. Not because of anything we did, he just did. We had to work hard to get to where we are, we had those who helped us. We didn't just sit around and whine. But, we got through the hard times and can now get burgers. That was the only point I was trying to make, without making a whole background post. Even in the hard times, when we literally only had beans, a whole ton of stuff went right and we weren't nearly as bad off as we could have been or as other people were. The point is, if your life is even bearable, your blessed. When you can have burgers, your super blessed. I'm very sorry if I haven't been clearer.

I think I'll just shut up. :-P Apparently I'm not that great a communicator when it comes to over the Internet discussions. And thank you, I will read the rules. I think I missed them, maybe? Did I break one already? :( I'm sorry...

But why YOU? Why did God pick your preborn little soul to go to a loving family in America? Why not any of the people who are starving all over the world? Why didn't they deserve to be born in a wealthy nation, instead they got the 3rd world? Why do you get food while there are children in India dying from starvation?

[DistantStar]

Maybe it's different for others, but being born with a disability you have to sort of work out why you are how you are. Some people would prefer to just consider it random and senseless but I couldn't live like that. It would become very nihilistic, downcast, and selfish..pitying very soon.

Well, I too was born with a disability, and the thought that it's something that just happened is far easier for me to deal with than the idea that it was "done" to me for some reason. This might be because I have heard several reasons why it happens from the "God gave you this for a reason" crowd, and all of them range from disturbing to insulting for various reasons. I'm no example to other people, I'm no angel. Please don't put me on a pedestal. I don't have this thing because my parents sinned either. Something went wonky when sperm met egg, something really rare and weird. It just is. And I make of it what I can; my biggest issues with it have always revolved around other people's reactions both as individual and as a society, not just figuring out how to do something. I'm pretty good at figuring out how to do stuff, that's nothing new.

I make my own meaning. If the creative purpose behind the f'in universe had a reason for this than it's nothing like anything any human could imagine. But I don't find that depressing, I find it freeing. I don't have to live up or down to other people's expectations, only my own.

[4x4]

Pixydust: I don't know why. Why do any of us have anything we have? Those little children in Africa had just as much right as I did. I don't have that answer. But neither do you. No one does.

Haligh: the principle was not about the hamburger. The principle was that I am so increadibly blessed that I can even get a hamburger. Yes, even when if I have to go out and kill the cow myself, it's still a blessing. It's ablessing all the same. And God gave me the burger, cow, life to live to eat it, hands to prepare it, teeth to eat it, energy to do all of this, and everything else. God is the giver. I did nothing for it. Why He allows others go without? I don't know. Why do others have cancer and I don't? It isn't necessarily because I treat my body better. The Lord gave me my health and can take it back any time and for any reason He desires.

[treemom]

Pixydust: I don't know why. Why do any of us have anything we have? Those little children in Africa had just as much right as I did. I don't have that answer. But neither do you. No one does.

Haligh: the principle was not about the hamburger. The principle was that I am so increadibly blessed that I can even get a hamburger. Yes, even when if I have to go out and kill the cow myself, it's still a blessing. It's ablessing all the same. And God gave me the burger, cow, life to live to eat it, hands to prepare it, teeth to eat it, energy to do all of this, and everything else. God is the giver. I did nothing for it. Why He allows others go without? I don't know. Why do others have cancer and I don't? It isn't necessarily because I treat my body better. The Lord gave me my health and can take it back any time and for any reason He desires.

Actually I do have the answer...it has to do with misogyny, racism, imperialism, etc.

I don't view the hamburger as a gift...because doing so means your god is an asshole. I view it as luck. Luck that I have to repay...and not just when I can afford it..but in whatever way, whenever I can.

[4x4]

Well, if that's how you choose to believe, that's fine. :) To me, that's a rather random and depressing way to look at life, but apparently you have no problem with it. My beliefs don't mean God is anything. He is exactly what He says He is. What you think of him really doesn't worry Him. In fact, He even orchistrates that, so while I believe you are wrong, you go right ahead. Perhaps someday He will change your mind. Perhaps not. It will certainly be through no desire of yours, as you are very secure apparently in your beliefs. For now, I'm glad I believe in something more than random chance, but you are more than welcome to believe any way you want. :)

[freejoytoo]

As for people saying God has a big plan, what exactly does he have planned for children who are born and then live brief, unhappy lives filled with disease and hunger?

And also, if God is supposedly the same one in the Old Testament I think he's messed up. Like the story of Job, which I understand is meant to make people feel better about suffering, but it doesn't show God in that good a light, IMO. He just fucks with Job because he wants to show Satan he's wrong. I realise that it's probably meant to be taken as a metaphor but it still shows God as being a total sadist.

4X4 do you believe that have any free will if God decides everything?

And if God has created everything, why did he create things like parasites and disease? Stephen Fry says it best: