What is it like believing that God influences everything?

[Constance Vigilance]

I wonder what the magic cheesecake ladies would think of the alternative interpretation I heard of the loaves and fishes story.

I can't remember where I heard this but the story goes that the miracle was not in the basket of food but in the hearts of the multitude. The people who said they didn't have anything were lying and that when the little boy gave all the food he had brought, they were ashamed and as the basket passed by them they put food in rather than taking food out so that there was more and more food all the time. Sort of like an olden days pot luck supper.

I wish more ministers would preach it that way because it's actually more impressive to change someone's heart than to just magic them up some foods.

This is how I heard it. Like the "stone soup" story. I like that story :)

[linnea27]

I lean a bit more towards thinking it must be depressing, at least at times. I've known fundie-lite people who seem completely unmotivated to do anything, because after all, if God wants it to happen, he will make it happen. I had a friend in high school who wanted to go on some group trip to Australia and she didn't do any of the required fundraising for it. She desperately wanted to go, but figured prayer was enough. When God didn't come through with the financing, she took that as a sign that God didn't want her to go. She could have gone if she had done the fundraising along with her friends.

My husband was raised a sort of fundie-lite. He experienced a testicular torsion as a teen, which is basically when the testicle has too much room to turn in the scrotum due to a birth defect and will twist and cut off the blood flow to the testicle. It's not good, and requires surgery to correct. Because my husband had discovered masturbation not too long before this incident, he feared that the horrifying pain in his testicles and accompanying swelling was due to God punishing him. So he did nothing. He didn't tell his parents for hours for fear of further repercussion and embarrassment, and just hid in his room. Eventually the pain was so bad he was vomiting all over the place and it was discovered that something was wrong and he was taken to the hospital, apparently just in time to save his testicle. He said that he felt like a million pounds had been lifted off his shoulders when the emergency room doctor assured his concerned parents that there was nothing he did or didn't do to cause it.

[Kaylee]

I do believe that God influences everything, and that small events may work towards his overall plan (I'm one of those ebil Calvinists and we're big on the whole sovereignty thing). I find it pretty comforting overall, because there's this sense that shit happens but it all works out in the end. It's also caused me to get really, really, pissed of at God over both stuff in my life and in others' lives: I accept that God's in control and has a plan, both sometimes I really, really dislike some of the things that happen anyway.

I do think God sometimes intervenes in people's lives, and sometimes it is really small stuff. I don't think He's so caught up in some people's lives that He micromanages every detail of their life and does small miracles on a regular basis though, and I have no clue why sometimes it seems like God is helping one person with a moderate need, but not the thousands or millions of people with much greater needs. I think it's arrogant to assume if God helps you it's because you're such a great Christian, and downright cruel to teach people that bad stuff is because of sin or because God is punishing them (because lots of people do really bad stuff and life goes great for them).

I have seen people use it as a way to avoid responsibility, usually by claiming God is leading them to be an irresponsible, lazy ass (Gabe Anast, anyone?), but usually people use it as a form of motivation. If you think God has a plan for you, then you should be working hard and doing your best to do whatever you think He's leading you to, not just slacking and waiting for things to change.

[snarkbillie]

When I was a little kid it was comforting. If someone was mean to me, God would get them later. If I lost a drawing for erasers at school, it's because God knew I didn't need them. If I found a quarter it's because God wanted me to have it. God put me where I belonged and took great care to do everything the right way.

When I got older I started to wonder why God didn't help those kids that were starving or why God gave my friend's mom cancer or why did God put me in a family that was so abusive. The only reason I could come up with in that theology was that sin was the cause. If I got sick it was because I sinned. If I had bad parents it was because I didn't deserve better ones. When my friend's mom died of cancer it was because her mom was a dirty sinner. It wasn't comforting anymore. It made me angry. How could a God who loves us punish us so harshly?!

Now I am in the "fallen world" group. I think God knows everything but won't/can't control it all. If people have free will then they have the freedom to be douche canoes. If God took away their right to be assholes then they wouldn't have free will. Sometimes bad things happen because some asshole did something. Not everything is my fault, the world doesn't revolve around me. Comfort again!

[Crackedeggs]

Ha, I've tried like hell NOT to live like that but I can't quite seem to shake it. Some Fundy habits that start in childhood seem almost impossible to shake off!

And I always thought there was something wrong with me because I just could NOT believe that! Like, I was a genetic moral deficient or something! So, yeah, what the hell, if I couldn't get that, I might as well do as I pleased.. and I did, from about age 14 to my early 30s, when I re-encountered that crap with the Quiverfull/Dress People. Tried as hard as I could to re-brainwash myself... till we caught my husband in bed with the babysitter. Now I'm kind of dead inside when it comes to faith. I know there is something out there, it could be " Jesus"... I WANT it to be Jesus, cause shit, I've sure messed up in life...but as for the rest of it.. yeah. Right. I'm so sure God cares if I'm wearing a dress or a pair of jeans. :roll:

[4x4]

Only my second post here, and I never did post an intro. Sorry, people. :-/

When this question is asked, I am always puzzled why? I mean, I see a lot of points on the other side here, but guess to me it's such a fundamental principle I jut don't get how you can live without it!

I guess my family may be considered fundie lite, I don't know. We sure aren't full blown! And I actually don't even know who a lot of the folks y'all talk about are. However, I did always grow up believing that God was in control of everything. I don't remember it ver being pumped into me or anything, it was just a fact in our household. Now that I'm an adult, that hasn't changed and has actually helped me through some difficult times the past few years.

I don't believe that just because you sin, the next bad thing that happens is punishment. That's Biblically absurd. I do believe that there are laws of sowing and reaping, and if you sin and choose to allow yourself to get angry and punch a brick wall, yeah, your bruised or broken hand is probably the result, if not punishment. Likewise, if you choose not to get upset with someone and instead choose to be calm and attempt to restore the relationship, the following joy and fellowship with that person is the result and perhaps even a Heavenly reward. But, the fact remains that sometimes God allows bad things to happen to you for His glory, just like He did for Job. Likewise, you certainly can't take credit for all the good things in your life and claim that they are ALL a reward for what you've done. If that's the case, your nothing more than a saint!!!

As for God caring about little things, I believe he does. While I don't believe we should take this to a sacreligous extent (Oh! Look! God is making me put purple toe nail polish on today!) I don't believe that that is out of His realm. He orchistrates every detail of life, but to publicly make a big deal out of it sort of rings of fun-making.

On the other hand, I've been craving hamburgers for a month, and today, out of the blue, I'm being blessed with hamburgers for supper! And yes, it is a blessing, especially since there ARE thousands around the world getting nothing to eat today, let alone hamburgers. And it ain't a reward for something I've done, either!

Ok. I'm done. :)

[Witsec7]

On the other hand, I've been craving hamburgers for a month, and today, out of the blue, I'm being blessed with hamburgers for supper!

If I crave something I cook it if its within my means. What was preventing you from having a burger without the intervention of a higher power? :roll:

[snarkbillie]

On the other hand, I've been craving hamburgers for a month, and today, out of the blue, I'm being blessed with hamburgers for supper!

If I crave something I cook it if its within my means. What was preventing you from having a burger without the intervention of a higher power? :roll:

Wasn't me, but nothing. I do thank God for food often though. I have been without food many times in my life so whenever I have food to eat I am thankful for it. Otherwise, I had a tomato today that was positively glorious and I said a little prayer to God thanking Him for tomatoes and also thanking Him for blessing me with the ability to buy them.

[4x4]

Lol. I'm not in charge of the menu in my house. ;) Even if I was, would I not be blessed to even have the fixings for that, when there are so many who have nothing? Being blessed with something or having God give you something doesn't always mean you just sit there and wait. God gave me health, and allows me to retain it. However, that doesn't mean I can just go trashing my body and expect God to keep it up.

[Witsec7]

Lol. I'm not in charge of the menu in my house. ;) Even if I was, would I not be blessed to even have the fixings for that, when there are so many who have nothing? Being blessed with something or having God give you something doesn't always mean you just sit there and wait. God gave me health, and allows me to retain it. However, that doesn't mean I can just go trashing my body and expect God to keep it up.

I've been hungry and without food. I just got off foods stamps chica. When I offer thanks for my vittles, I thank myself for working to earn the money to make the purchase. I thank the farmworkers who picked the greens for my salad, I thank the folks who work in the bakeries.

Why don't you have input into your home menu? This is kinda confusing for me. Are you living with parents and family who discount what you would want? And fwiw a black bean burger is a lot more economical and just as flavorful as dead cow on bread.

[pixydust]

Lol. I'm not in charge of the menu in my house. ;) Even if I was, would I not be blessed to even have the fixings for that, when there are so many who have nothing? Being blessed with something or having God give you something doesn't always mean you just sit there and wait.quote]

Well, whomever is the person/people who go to work everyday, bring the paycheck home, then do the grocery shopping, and make the burgers is responsible for it, not God. How about thanking them? That always bugged me. I cooked dinner 5 nights a week for my family (8 people) as a teen. We thanked God for it, but never me. God didn't make 2 lasagnas, salad, and a ton of garlic bread....I did!

[Witsec7]

Well, whomever is the person/people who go to work everyday, bring the paycheck home, then do the grocery shopping, and make the burgers is responsible for it, not God. How about thanking them? That always bugged me. I cooked dinner 5 nights a week for my family (8 people) as a teen. We thanked God for it, but never me. God didn't make 2 lasagnas, salad, and a ton of garlic bread....I did!

Exactly thats why in our faithless heathen household we expressed gratitude for those that actually contributed to the act of preparing and harvesting the food, and for those that willingly washed the plates afterwards.

[snarkbillie]

Exactly thats why in our faithless heathen household we expressed gratitude for those that actually contributed to the act of preparing and harvesting the food, and for those that willingly washed the plates afterwards.

I thank those people too as I'm able. I am often not able to thank the farm workers and harvesters but I thank God for them and pray that he takes care of their needs as well. I thank the lady who rings up my groceries, I thank my kids for helping carry them in from the car, I thank my husband for paying the electric bill so that we can cook and refrigerate them, I thanked my neighbor for giving me her old China hutch that I keep canned foods in AND I thank God. There is enough gratitude for everyone.

[4x4]

For some reason I haven't discovered how to do quotes yet, besides the fact that Several people responded towards my post.

First, I am living with my parents right now as I am learning the ins and outs of a business and that's the best place to be. So, my mom is in charge of the menu because that's just always been her job. Which is fine with me. :) I hate cooking and planning meals.

Thirdly, while thanking the hands that prepared the food may be a problem in other households, it's never been one in ours! I remember from my earliest days, my dad would always thank my mom (and later myself amd my sisters) when she/we would fix a meal, or a snack, or even a drink. Because you thank God for the blessing of food - which we have been without at times - doesn't mean you can't thank the person who made it as well. That's absurd. I don't get fundy families who go one way (thanking only God) and I can't understand others who go the other way (only thanking the humans responsible.)

[4x4]

Snarkbillie, exactly. :)

[Witsec7]

.... So, my mom is in charge of the menu because that's just always been her job. Which is fine with me. :) I...

I'm still not getting why your mother won't accept input on what you may want to eat.

I've raised a family and 5 kids. Everyone had input into meal planning. I wasn't a food dictator or a control freek when it came to feeding my family. Besides, its always easier to plan meals with the help of others.

[xDreamerx]

I just wanted to add my 2 cents:

I believe God is in control, but I also believe free will influences our lives. I don't believe God is in control of every single minute event. For example, I don't think thanking God for my meals is really necessary because God isn't the reason I have meals. I come from a middle class family who can afford it and food in this area of the world is widely available. It's not that hard to figure out. However, I do know that another sense I am very lucky and people don't end up homeless or impoverished by choice. All it takes is one or two bad strokes of luck. Maybe you loose your job or have unexpected medical debts or whatever. As the saying goes, "There but for the grace of God (sometimes fortune is said in place of God) go you or I." I could end up just like them so I should consider myself fortunate and find ways to help those who aren't. Do I believe I am more fortunate because I am blessed by God? No. I don't know the reason. I'm content with not being able to answer everything. By the same token, I don't think people in poor countries starve because of God, they starve because we let them. They starve because of civil wars and droughts and all kinds of factors. We should look to ourselves to help and take care of them, not God.

There was this quote by a nun character in an episode of House and she said, "If I break my leg, I believe God wanted me to, but I also believe he gave me the common sense to put a cast on it" or something like that. Maybe it's different for others, but being born with a disability you have to sort of work out why you are how you are. Some people would prefer to just consider it random and senseless but I couldn't live like that. It would become very nihilistic, downcast, and selfish..pitying very soon. For me personally at least, the belief is partly a choice. I can't prove it but I choose to believe it because it makes things better. I mean if there is no God and there is no purpose then why not kill yourself or not exist at all because no action you do will matter. It's all random and chaotic. I can't believe that. There's the Bible verse of Jesus with the blind man (I think in the Gospel of John) and they ask why he is blind, if it because of sin and Jesus tells them that he blind so the work of God might be witnessed in his life. That's what I try to live by. I don't think I'm special. But I do know I am alive despite the odds being against it so I assume there is a purpose and a plan to that and I had better not waste my life. From my perspective I have a duty to try and do good and to help other people, to have some impact or make some improvement on the world however small. I don't know what it is or will be but I figure if I just try to be kind and good every day that's something. If I advocate for disability access and rights where I see them denied that's something. I just want to be a force of good however I can be.

This pretty much sums it up for me, I don't know if it ever happened in real life but it's so epic.

[4x4]

It's no that big a deal. I mean, yeah, if I want meatloaf, I say, Hey Mama. I feel like meatloaf. It won't be a problem if I fix it for dinner, would it? She say, no, sure go ahead! And I do it. We just haven't gotten around to hamburgers before now. It's not a big deal, I just mentioned the burgers cuz it came to mind. And I don't care if I was going to have oatmeal tonight (which I hate), it would still be a blessing. I think my point about the burgers was missed...

[freejoytoo]

I find it hard to reconcile God being in control of everything and people still having free will. According to Christianity, God is in control of everything and knows everything, so if He knows what you're going to do and is in control of it how do you choose it if there can only be one choice? And how are you making the decision if God is in control?

I'm sorry, but the 'f there's no God what's the point' argument annoys me rather. The point is that you live a happy life and hopefully try and make the world a bit of a better place when you're there and not because you're trying to get to Heaven. Not that I think Christians are saying that exactly, at least not all of them, but I don't think that because God doesn't exist there's no point in being good.

As for people like the Maxwells...I'd say they're so focused on the next life they're not bothering to try and live this one.

[Witsec7]

Not to be obtuse but this:

We just haven't gotten around to hamburgers before now

Does that mean in your life? Recent times? WTH does it mean? You're not being very clear when you express yourself. How old are you? Are you a SODRT student?

[masagoroll]

I'm a Christian, but I generally have a rather Deist point of view--like the whole world is a really complicated watch and God is the watchmaker, and He made the watch and set it ticking, but He is not in there moving every piece of the watch. He set it going and it just keeps going following some rules set in place. I am unsure about how much He planned each thing that would happen, and how much is just the human and natural cause and effect of the world. For this reason, I try not to obsess over whether God is controlling specific things or not.

Thinking that God is specifically controlling everything is generally a very negative headspace for me. I have anxiety, as does basically my whole family--lots of OCD and Prozac going on. Thinking about God having a plan makes me feel so terrible when any random bad thing happens. I think "Why is God doing this to me?" even if it's not a very bad thing, because if God is in control of everything, isn't He making a bad thing happen to me specifically for some reason? So what did I do wrong? Am I doomed? It is not a healthy mental state for me, and it really is magical thinking.

On the other hand, it was pretty funny that one time when I was sitting on my bed, drinking a full cup of coffee, and the bedframe randomly broke and dumped me onto the ground! It felt like God was trolling me.

[4x4]

Oh my soul!!

Experiencedd: No I am not a whatever student. What in the world? We were discussing my craving for hamburger (of all things to discuss on this thread), so I was obviously talking about "before now" in the month I have been craving them. Not to be abrasive here, but must we continue to dominate this thread with my burgers? The point of my example was not HOW LONG I'd been craving them, but just the very fact that I knew what they were in order to crave them and that, no matter at what point of my cravings, I was able to HAVE THEM. Please, as a newcomer on this board, it's very embarrassing to have so much of a thread devoted to my burger cravings and the menu at my house. I'm sorry if somehow I wasn't clear, but I was just giving an example and never dreamed the details of my craving a hamburger would cause so much discussion.

And just for my info stash, what is a SODRT student?

[bellicosebroad]

So, what is it like to live like this? I'm wondering if this is a way to deny responsibility- if God "laid on your heart" to do something, and it goes horribly, how can it be your fault?

I was raised Lutheran, and am today what I call an eclectic spiritualist. (I like some of what Buddhism, Wiccanism, and paganism all teach -- plus a few others too -- but will never, ever again try to fit myself into another person's way of thinking entirely, and all of these constructs, invented by someone *else*, claim to have the perfect answers for *everyone*. They don't. No one does.)

Basically, I went through the motions because I had a *very* religious parent, but I never got what was so great about it and left as soon as I could. Trying to think like that drove me nuts. I felt like a child being controlled by a phantom parent. I couldn't wait to become an adult so that I could finally, fully be in charge of myself, and then I'm supposed to let some nebulous, nonexistent "guy in the sky" exert parental influence over me and render me childlike FOREVER? Nope. So today, I believe in karma and "shit happens," both. I think we have to take responsibility for ourselves and our actions, and try to be the best we can be... and then let go. Usually, things work out okay, even if the end result is different than we'd intended.

[treemom]

See I just think this sort of god is a grade a asshole.

He cares about magical cheesecake while children die in Haiti for want of a bar is soap? Well, yeah that pretty much defines asshole to me.

[treemom]

Although I have never taken it to a OMG CHEESECAKE!!!!!11!!!! level, it is nice knowing that God is in control of everything, and He has a reason for everything he does, even if it's not obvious to me. For example-car won't start. Ok, it's a pain in the neck, but for all I know, maybe God is saving me from a horrific traffic accident, or maybe because of the delay in my car starting, I'll be in the right place at the right time and something awesome will happen, or maybe He's bored and is messing with me. Maybe it's none of the above and he's just trying to teach me patience. It can be frustrating to not know why something is happening, but I try to think that there IS a reason and maybe someday I'll learn it.

Edited to add-Sorry I sinned. Hope the camp doesn't suffer because of it.

But the problem is, why does god decide to let you live a life of food, housing and clothing while millions others don't have that simply because if the luck of birth?