All American Muslim

[VeraAnne]

That poor three-year-old has to cover her entire body because of the misogyny in her parents' religious book, just like Hannie can't wear jeans because she needs to be properly "trained" not to arouse the desires of men.

Exactly. That was pretty much my exact thought process. It's not the woman's job to keep men from looking at her in sexual manner. It's the man's job to not go on a rape rampage at the sight of a shoulder.

[Austin]

I did watch it. l have to watch it some more before I'll have an opinion.

I really don't know that much about Islam, beyond comparative religion class and what I've picked up in general over the years. I don't find the Abrahamic religions very interesting in general, I guess.

[Bella99]

I don't actually get TLC. All the TLC snarking I do comes off of Netflix. So in 6 months when it comes on Netflix, I'll be right there snarking with you.

As for the burqa...I have a story of what actually made me come out of the quazi fundie circles that I was in.

I was at the park with my older kids in the middle of summer in Texas. My son and daughter were both wearing a t-shirt and shorts. A Muslim family came to the park. The mother was wearing heavy robes and a hijab that covered more of her face than the standard modern hijab. The father was wearing light pants and a shirt.

Their threeish year old daughter was wearing heavy, thick pants and a think long shirt. She was also wearing a heavy robe over the pants and shirt. She also had on two head coverings, that the poor dear was constantly trying to adjust to keep from slipping off and showing her hair.

Her older brother was wearing a Nike t-shirt and shorts. It was at least 98 degrees outside that day. That particular park has a water element which my kids were playing in. The older boy played in the water, but the girl did not.

I don't think I've ever felt that much rage in my life. I'd always been the type of parent who wouldn't put my kids in tank tops, but I went to target that day and got a few cute spaghetti strap shirts for my daughter. I started wearing shorts again. Fuck that shit.

This. It always makes me sad to go swim at the Y and see little girls in hijab and abaya sitting on the sidelines while their brothers get to frolic in the pool. I always tell their mothers about a private club in my neighborhood that has women only swimming a few nights a week. I'd rather them just let the girls swim with everybody else, but hopefully one of them investigated further so the girls could have some fun and learn water safety. The mothers all seem happy to hear of it.

[VeraAnne]

Austin, The biggest thing is that the entire Qu'ran is as dictated by one man. Because of contradictions, some earlier sections are abrogated by later revelations. The problem is that these later revelations came during the time that Muhammad was becoming more of a war-lord. They're far less "love your neighbor" and far more "convert, kill, or tax your neighbor."

Now, that doesn't mean that all Muslims follow the religion in the same way. There are many who outright reject any calls to violence or subjegation, especially in the West. However, in areas where literacy rates are low, these more violent verses are much more heavily taught. Also, in countries that fancy themselves Islamic Republics, they have a vested interest in keeping everyone in line using religion as a tool.

The Hadith (stories about Muhammad) have some disturbing stuff about the role of women, but again, not all Muslims follow all Hadith. As far as I know, there is absolutely nothing in either the Qu'ran or Hadith that say that a woman must dress in the current manner, other than the covering of hair and "modest' in general.

[emmiedahl]

The Bible is just as contradictory and disturbing. Don't even go there.

[Kitchen Princess]

Creaky Steel, there are differences in material that can make or break that argument. I knew a Somali woman who stayed covered for religious reasons, but she wore light and breezy stuff and always looked very comfortable. You cannot even compare that to dark colored polyester and heavy knits.

I have seen people referred to as Jewish American. It distinguishes a person from the default, which would be white Christian American.

No, the phrase in the article is:

American-Muslim

as if that were a separate category apart from people who are Muslim and American.

I don't think the terms American-Jew and Jewish American are interchangeable. They both imply different things, however subtle that may be.

Can you imagine the sanctimony if some of these fundies took up the phrase American-Christian to describe themselves?

[emmiedahl]

So they define themselves as Americans first and Muslims second, and this is what you find disturbing?

I have heard criticism of the X-American title because it puts American second. I don't really read that much into labels, but if you do then this should be a comforting twist of phrase.

[Austin]

Austin, The biggest thing is that the entire Qu'ran is as dictated by one man. Because of contradictions, some earlier sections are abrogated by later revelations. The problem is that these later revelations came during the time that Muhammad was becoming more of a war-lord. They're far less "love your neighbor" and far more "convert, kill, or tax your neighbor."

Now, that doesn't mean that all Muslims follow the religion in the same way. There are many who outright reject any calls to violence or subjegation, especially in the West. However, in areas where literacy rates are low, these more violent verses are much more heavily taught. Also, in countries that fancy themselves Islamic Republics, they have a vested interest in keeping everyone in line using religion as a tool.

The Hadith (stories about Muhammad) have some disturbing stuff about the role of women, but again, not all Muslims follow all Hadith. As far as I know, there is absolutely nothing in either the Qu'ran or Hadith that say that a woman must dress in the current manner, other than the covering of hair and "modest' in general.

I don't find any of the Abrahamic religions to be less patriarchal than another in their orthodox (small "o") forms: Christianity, Judaism, or Islam.

[VeraAnne]

The Bible is just as contradictory and disturbing. Don't even go there.

The differences is that the Bible isn't one man contradicting Himself. There are hundreds of authors who, while making claims of divine inspiration, are not THE authority on a given subject. With Islam, it's just Muhammad, and stories about Muhammad. Islam is unique because you can track the change in "tactic" over the course of Muhamad's life. The Meccan passages are pretty much generic "come to my religion of love and peace" stuff that is common in any religion. However, once he fled Mecca to Medina, the passages become much darker and more bent on conquer and forced coversions.

Now someone who is a Muslim will say that those passages are simply the further revelations from Allah, but from an outside prospective, it's clear that it shows a man's changing ethics as he accumulates power. It's actually pretty fascinating from a character examination perspective.

[VeraAnne]

I don't find any of the Abrahamic religions to be less patriarchal than another in their orthodox (small "o") forms: Christianity, Judaism, or Islam.

I do think that the "cast the first stone" attitude of Jesus sets Him (and thus Christianity) apart somewhat from the others.

However, I also don't believe that the NT is the "word of God" outside of the Gospels. Just because Peter or Paul thought that a woman should do something, doesn't mean that it is God's design for women.

[Boogalou]

The differences is that the Bible isn't one man contradicting Himself. There are hundreds of authors who, while making claims of divine inspiration, are not THE authority on a given subject. With Islam, it's just Muhammad, and stories about Muhammad. Islam is unique because you can track the change in "tactic" over the course of Muhamad's life. The Meccan passages are pretty much generic "come to my religion of love and peace" stuff that is common in any religion. However, once he fled Mecca to Medina, the passages become much darker and more bent on conquer and forced coversions.

Now someone who is a Muslim will say that those passages are simply the further revelations from Allah, but from an outside prospective, it's clear that it shows a man's changing ethics as he accumulates power. It's actually pretty fascinating from a character examination perspective.

Unless you believe the Bible is the absolute literal word of God, then the bible is just one God contradicting Herself. It depends on your view.

And I am not really aware of the scholarly view on the Quran. Is it thought to all be written by Muhammad?

[emmiedahl]

Some of Mohammed's revelations seem very convenient, but who cares? It's a good reason for me to not be Muslim. But I don't care what anyone else believes, and I find none of them less probable than the others.

You cannot even say that the NT does not conflict with the OT. The completely different views of life, the nature of God, the nature of the Messiah. I am not saying to drop out of church; believe what you want to believe. But don't go crapping on someone else's religious beliefs when you believe that a man was born of a virgin and rose from the dead.

[VeraAnne]

It was all dictated by Muhammad. He was actually illiterate and didnt write anything himself.

[Boogalou]

It was all dictated by Muhammad. He was actually illiterate and didnt write anything himself.

OK, thanks. I thought that it was something like that and could not remember. I did some more researching and it was all memorized and then written down shortly after his death. And if anybody is interested you can listen to the Quran online here:http://quran.com/1 since it is meant to be heard more than read.

[Kitchen Princess]

So they define themselves as Americans first and Muslims second, and this is what you find disturbing?

I have heard criticism of the X-American title because it puts American second. I don't really read that much into labels, but if you do then this should be a comforting twist of phrase.

No, I find the hyphen disturbing, because it means the two things joined by the hyphen are inextricably connected.

Their religion/belief system is independent of their national heritage, although I do understand that the region you are born in, and therefore the dominant culture is a big factor in your chosen belief system.

However, being of African descent is not something you choose. Religion is. Religion and nationality are not inextricably linked.

[emmiedahl]

I think you are reading way too much into this, as far as the hyphen is concerned. Let people define themselves however they want.

I definitely identify as a Jewish American. Sorry, but I don't meet the American stereotype. I diverge from mainstream culture in my religion. That absolutely is a label that applies to me.

[Kitchen Princess]

I think you are reading way too much into this, as far as the hyphen is concerned. Let people define themselves however they want.

I definitely identify as a Jewish American. Sorry, but I don't meet the American stereotype. I diverge from mainstream culture in my religion. That absolutely is a label that applies to me.

You are totally missing the point.

You stated you didn't like the hyphenated names yourself.

It is hyphenating the names together that I find over-reaching. I was just explaining it to you in detail, answering your questions. I find it divisive, for the reasons outlined, and god forbid the

Christian-Americans take it up.

ETA: This doesn't make any sense at all:

I definitely identify as a Jewish American. Sorry, but I don't meet the American stereotype. I diverge from mainstream culture in my religion. That absolutely is a label that applies to me.

[emmiedahl]

No, I think you are missing the point. The point is that we should let them define themselves and not get all butt hurt about how they decide to punctuate it.

[Crackedeggs]

I saw a preview for this tonight, and the coach apparently has his team practice overnight during Ramadan? HELL NO! If I was a football parent, I'd be pitching a fit about that.

[dawn9476]

I saw a preview for this tonight, and the coach apparently has his team practice overnight during Ramadan? HELL NO! If I was a football parent, I'd be pitching a fit about that.

They did it last year. Plus, this is a school where 95 percent of the students who attend are Muslim so the parents understand.

http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/fordson-fo ... ng-ramadan

[dawn9476]

dp. Pressed new post instead of edit.

[Purple]

It doesn't look like too many Free Jingerites are watching this show?

You should! I think anyone interested in religion, gender roles, and women's rights will find it fascinating. I snarked a bit over on the TWoP thread, but there are a ton of apologists there defending one set of parents for forcing their nine-year-old daughters to wear the hijab. I'm restraining myself from going off because I don't want to get a warning, but geez. Most people there seem to think it's so lovely and wonderful and it's totally the child's choice, and don't forget she said it makes her feel pretty. It's not oppression at all. :roll:

I asked them if they would be okay with those parents putting a burqa on a baby, but no one's answered me yet. :twisted:

As an observant American Muslim who occasionally lurks here, I'd like to address this. I haven't seen the show, so I'm just basing this on what you said here - that it appears (at least superficially) to be the child's choice, and that she's stated that she likes wearing it.

I don't have kids, so I'm not by any means an expert on this, but it seems to me that nine is old enough for a child to express a preference about their clothing, and to have that preference honored by their parents when it's within reason. I realize that 'within reason' is highly subjective, but a girl wanting to wear the same things her mother wears doesn't strike me as being outside those bounds.

Nine is also young enough that it's perfectly natural for children to want to imitate their parents. If that's 'brainwashed', then most nine-year-olds are brainwashed. Serious questioning of their parents' values and authority is still, for most, several years away - few nine-year-olds can understand those concepts on an adult level, and even fewer put serious thought into them at that age (nor should they be expected to).

Given that, I don't see why it's difficult to believe that the girl would want to dress like her mother, and why you think it's wrong for her mother to allow it. If the girl asked to wear a scarf, should her parents have said no? Why? If the situation were reversed, and the nine-year-old was refusing to wear it, would you still be arguing that she couldn't possibly be making that decision herself? I doubt it.

If, in the future, she wants to stop wearing it, and her parents try to force her to continue, then I'll agree with you that that's wrong, but I don't see how you got that from the situation you described. Maybe that's the case, maybe it isn't, but you have no way of knowing, nor do you have (based on what you've said here) any credible reason to think so. The crux of your argument seems to be "It's impossible that anyone could choose something different from me unless they were forced!"

As far as putting a burqa on a baby... that strikes me as both stupid and dangerous for the baby, but I've seen far stupider and more dangerous things done to babies, and not by Muslims or any other religious group. I'll just stop there, to avoid starting several unrelated arguments.

I don't have time right now, but if anyone's interested, I'd be happy to post an explanation of why I (a veiled woman) believe that forcing girls to cover their hair, etc., is wrong.

[Bella99]

I consider nine awfully young to be wearing the hijab. If in fact she freely chose it, I'm sure it pleased her parents. What happens if she decides she doesn't want to be hijabi anymore?

[Sunnichick31]

Seriously what 9 year old isn't trying to please her parents? I am sure taht she put on the hijab after deciding to do it herself, not after being forced to do it, and I'm sure that if she took it off, her parents would be alright with it. They seem like very liberal Muslims.

As for that 3 year old that was in a hijab, that's a bit wrong. It's one thing to put a hijab on them when they are going to the mosque (it does look super cute!), but it's totally different than putting one on them when it's almost 100 degrees outside.

[Purple]

I consider nine awfully young to be wearing the hijab. If in fact she freely chose it, I'm sure it pleased her parents. What happens if she decides she doesn't want to be hijabi anymore?

Since neither you nor I have ever met her parents, it's impossible to know the answer to that. In my opinion, they should let her wear what she wants, within reason. Is there any objective reason to think that wouldn't be the case? Speculating and drawing conclusions is one thing, just plain making stuff up is something else entirely.

Also (though, again, I haven't seen the episode), you shouldn't just assume that it pleased her parents... at least, not both of them. I know several Muslim men married to muhajabat (women who cover their hair) who would prefer that their wives didn't cover, but respect her right to make that decision herself. It's not that unusual. I've never asked, but they probably feel the same way towards their daughters, and wouldn't be thrilled with their daughter choosing to wear hijab. I have no idea if the parents being discussed here fall into that category - I just get tired of hearing, over and over again, that anyone who chooses to wear it must be forced. That simply isn't the case, and the idea that so many women lack the intellectual capacity to make their own decisions is startlingly similar to the 'patriarchy/headship/submission' nonsense that you all rail against.