What Kind of Scandals Have Happened in Your Church?

[activespinster]

new post from muffynbear

Reading another thread got me thinking. What kind of scandals have happened in your place of worship? You don't have to name names, but do telll!

For instance, in the church a relative of mine attends- the former Pastor. He was a kind, charitable man. He was well liked in the community. He coached basketball. He was also carrying on an affair with a woman in the congregation who was not his wife. The Other Woman was homely and desperate. Possibly the most unattractive woman in the entire congregation. She was unstable, emotionally needy and well... homely. Probably the last woman on Earth one would consider attractive. Yet, when the Wife would leave for work, the Pastor would drive down the street to the Other Woman's house and "counsel" her. The Other Woman had recently divorced her husband and needed counseling. These counseling sessions would lead to a steamy affair. They carried on this affair at her home, in front of her teenage children for years. Many in the town knew about this yet no one told the Wife. The Wife had no idea and his children had no idea. He would park his car at the Other Woman's house. This woman lived on a main rd. Many would see his car parked there for hours for "counselling" sessions.

Finally, someone finally got fed up and threatened to "spill all", thus leading the Pastor to break down in front of the entire congregation (at Christmas!) and confess. He lost his job, and ended up going to counseling with the Wife (they had children together). However, none of it helped because he continued to look at porn and contact the Other Woman when his Wife wasn't looking. The Other Woman continued to be defiant and brazen, continuing to refer to the Pastor as "Her Man" to all that would listen and people were just trying to get in the way of their "relationship". The Pastor and Wife divorced and he moved away.

This was a man who preached about the importance of purity and not giving away pieces of your heart to the wrong person and saving oneself for marriage. Complete rubbish. I really respected this man, he was a role model to me. He was my spiritual leader. In a way, I felt stupid and betrayed to believe this person. I adored his family. Years later, I still can't believe this happened. My best friend knew about this too while it was going on, and she never told me. Apparently it was common knowledge among some, while others had no idea.

[activespinster]

new post from InkyGirl

I'm not sure if it could be considered a scandal but a whole crap load of drama went down in my former church. I suppose you could call it a mutiny of sorts. A small group of people, a couple of families who had been in the church for generations got together and decided they didn't want my Dad to be the pastor anymore. The tried to get a petition going and recruit followers. The ring leader went so far as to tell my Dad that she wished she could "rip his head off and spit down his throat." She was my Sunday School teacher. The church eventually split and my family left a year later. It was a horrible time for me as I was 15 at the time and I never really experienced any adult being so hateful before.

The summer after the whole shebang I went to a church camp and ran into one of the 'rebels'; during a prayer time she concluded her prayer with "and if anyone here needs to ask for forgivness from anyone else here let them do it now." That was aimed at me - a 15 year old girl who just had her world turned upside down.

I lost my church, nearly lost my best friend and lost my home.

It took a long time to trust church people again.

[activespinster]

new post from O Latin

We had one involving the youth leader and a barely legal girl. I was never technically supposed to know about that, though. I only found out because my mom was on the church staff at the time and she told me.

Years and years ago there was a (from what I can gather) pretty big scandal that had something to do with a chaperone sleeping with underage girls on the high school choir trip. I don't know much about that one either because I was only in elementary school at the time and no one likes to talk about it. I only found out about it when I was on my own high school choir trip and someone mentioned that there had been a "sex crimes issue" in the music department a few years earlier. I called up my mom that night and begged her to tell me what that was all about, but even she didn't know the whole story. What I found interesting was that our choir director seemed pretty convinced that the guy was guilty but according to my mom the choir directors at the time weren't so sure.

[activespinster]

new post from keeperrox

The year I went away to college, my pastor's 16-year-old daughter got pregnant by someone I graduated with whose family went back generations in the church, which, of course, sent the church into a tizzy. They were broken up by the time she had their son, and apparently tensions were mighty high from then on out. I'm actually really glad I wasn't around for this whole thing, because it really divided some of the long-time families in the church. My pastor moved there when I was in 8th grade, and within a year or two, he was forced out of the church and his home by the elders. After he left, so did many of the younger families, taking their money along with them. We were a relatively wealthy church up to that point, with 3 services on Sunday, and a multitude of programs offered throughout the week. When my mom left about 3 or 4 years ago, they were down to 1 service on Sunday that was half full, and only 4 or 5 programs throughout the week. Whether the impetus was the pregnancy or the forcing out of a wonderful man and his family remains to be seen. Thankfully, my pastor landed on his feet, and after several years of holding services in movie theaters and other large venues, is now the headmaster of a prominent Christian school (not affiliated with the church, but several families sent their kids there) right across the street.

[activespinster]

new post from clibbyjo

DH and I were pretty Catholic when I was pregnant with my first son. We LOVED the priest and would often see him at the video store with his boyfriend.(he was obviously gay, but it seemed noone in the parish cared about that and it was more don't ask don't tell kind of thing.) What happened was he was busted in an undercover sex ring and it was on the news and everything. I felt so bad for his boyfriend, and I lost all faith in the Catholic church when the priest I loved couldn't even keep it in his pants to not cheat on his boyfriend. :/

[activespinster]

new post from ukjingernut

I've been part of eight churches in my life, and have known scandals take place in all but one. Increasingly, I'm trying not to be judgmental but to realise that the Church is simply comprised of ordinary, fallible humans who often get their lives in a mess and need God's forgiveness and grace.

But I have seen

* a pastor who suddely developed a specific hotline to the Holy Spirit which meant the she assumed sole control of the congregation, both in terms of doctrine and finance. At the time, it seemed abusive. In retrospect, she was clearly suffering from some form of psychotic illness and, by allowing all of her behaviour to escalate unchallenged, both the church and her denominational body really failed in their responsibilities to care for her. She also somehow acquired an extremely expensive car, and the way in which nobody could explain where the money came from suggests there was also some seriously negligent financial practices

* various minister-runs-off-with-admin-person sex scandals

* several forced exorcisms of clearly vulnerable people, one involving violence

* a church employee accused without evidence of something seriously illegal. The allegations were dropped after the employee in question challenged the church to invite outside authorities to investigate thoroughly (thereby demonstrating he had nothing to hide) but it didn't do his reputation any good

* a church worker sexually abusing young teenagers

* lots of low-level petty bullying

[activespinster]

new post from MuseMama

My dad was the church choir director when I was growing up. It was a little bit like being the preacher's kid in that I understood the "business" of church. Finances, committees, planning. Church was more like putting on a show, with rehearsals and everything, and less like a worship service.

In my dad's choir there were two friends, one who started sleeping with the others husband, The husband in question divorced his wife and married the mistress. The mistress I'd known all my life, and was a school principle.

Similar scandal at my mother's church (my parents were both paid church musicians and thus went to different churches) where there were 2 ladies in the choir, one of whom slept with the other's husband, who was also the choir director. He stayed with his wife, but left the church. It was a stupid affair for many reasons, not the least of which was that the woman was never going to keep her mouth shut. Not when there were so many people who could be hurt.

These was about the point as a kid where I realized that adults could be complete dumbasses.

[activespinster]

new post from

A few years ago I began to get involved in a PCA church. My kids attended a large Christain school and the pastor of the church was also a part-time bible teacher at the school. Many families I knew attended this small church. I liked how people in the church really seemed to care about each other and be involved in each other's lives. I also liked how the pastor would have people over to his house. He was married with 7 kids, I really liked his wife. More and more people started attending. I began attending a women's bible study where I was introduced slowly, for the first time, ideas like predestnation, women's submission, God's sovereinty. The pastor and his family had taken in a single Mom to live with them. I got to know her and became disturbed by how they were controlling her life. Families began to disappear from the church with no explanation. This pastor was heavily into counseling and sheparding. I considered going to him for this, but had a bad feeling. This was a fairly new church plant with no elders, and the pastor was resistant o putting any elders into place. One night I had a dream of the pastor and another man of the church having a big split. Unbeknownst to me, this had really hapened. I found out later that the pastor had tried to control lives, he threatened families (a la Jen Epstein), and had inappropriate "talks" with youth via Facebook. Through this congregation I was introduced to Debi Pearl, and the fundie world. I had previously been attending a "lukewarm" Methodist church. I was having troubles in my marriage and longed for the joy and peace Debi Pearl promised if i could just fully submit, and I admit I tried this for a few weeks and did have joy and peace - I just couldn't keep it up. The pastor was fired from his job at the christian school, is under investigation by the PCA oversight, and many families are destroyed (after following his advice, a few families have broken up completely).

I am at FJ because I struggle with the elusive joys/misery of complete submission vs the elusive joys/misery of feminism. Okay, I struggle with the elusive joy and misery of life.

[activespinster]

new post from Hane.engrishmessageb...

At my relatives' Baptist church (American Baptist), which had been founded in the 1920s by local Italian immigrants and a pastor from Italy, a split bankrupted and ended what had been a thriving congregation. The organist (a talented music teacher renowned as a vicious gossip--she was so bad that my mom refused to send us kids to her for piano lessons) got ticked off when a pastor stood up to her, so she left in a hissy fit, taking half the congregation with her. The remaining families couldn't keep the church going, and it closed.

After the church closed, a branch of my family in an adjoining town resumed attending their local American Baptist church. In February of this year, my cousin's husband was charged with embezzling nearly $400,000 from the church. He was recently convicted and imprisoned--being in his 60s, he'll probably spend the rest of his life in jail. I can't help wondering why the church allowed him on their board of finance: he had been convicted in 1999 of embezzling $22,000 from the hospital of which he was administrator. (In January, he was charged with embezzling $70,000 from an elderly woman for whom he was financial manager; in February, he was charged with stealing $38,000 from the choral group his wife belonged to.) The heck of all this is that he wasn't even Baptist--he was raised Congregationalist and started attending the Baptist church with his wife. Now my 60-something cousin, a housewife for over 40 years, who was clueless about all this, is unemployed and broke and will lose her house.

At my own UU church, a generation ago, the pastor "left under a cloud": he was found to have been having an affair with a member of the congregation.

And, not a scandal, but a tragedy: The priest at my original Catholic parish, who had baptized my daughter, was transferred to a new parish some years later, and was trying to minister to a mentally ill homeless man there. One night, the man entered the church when the priest was there alone and murdered him.

[activespinster]

new post from MeeMee

I'm a preacher's kid...

1. The organists are always trouble. They usually had more time in than the ministers and knew the political lay of the land well enough to bury anyone they darn well pleased.

2.Cougars wanting to sleep with the pastor, despite all parties being married. (This is a chronic problem, not isolated. Watch out for those middle aged beauty queens and former cheer leaders.)

3.Pastors sleeping with teens.

4.Gay pastors fired for coming out of the closet (the Methodist church hasn't always been so tolerant)

5.Embezzling and petty theft.

As a result, we don't go to church much although I'm trying to find something for my kids so they at least understand what it's all about.

M

[activespinster]

update from thatonechick

The pastors couldn't seem to keep it in their pants.

Seriously. Every. Damn. Church.

[activespinster]

update from Hane.engrishmessageb...

Welcome, MeeMee, and you are spot-on about organists and "music ministry" in general!

At my former Catholic parish, a bunch of the choir members decided not to like the organist/choir director, and flounced out of the choir--and were promptly replaced by new members. A couple of years later, we got a new pastor. Shortly after his arrival, he received a mass visit from some pissed-off folks who announced themselves as "the OLD choir," intending to set him straight about the fact that they were the REAL choir, and hoping to get him on their side. What they got was a come-to-Jesus meeting on how to play nice or STFU. When a new organist came, they miraculously decided to rejoin.

I bet every church has seen its share of prima-donna organists and soloists who go on and on about their "ministry," when in fact they're looking for a captive audience, and get all pissy when people don't grovel and genuflect to them. One of ours (a classically trained organist) ran into the ladies' room in tears because the choir didn't sit in rapt attention as she played a lengthy classical prelude before Mass. Shortly afterwards, our local newspaper ran a story about her, written by one of her friends, which began, "The parishioners of St. Pizza Hut Church don't know how lucky they are..." Took all my power not to write a snarky letter in response.

At my present UU church, we have a hard-working, underpaid organist and small but enthusiastic (if not professional-grade) choir. One of our members (who did have musical talent, and who has played and sung at some services) started getting very vocal about how crappy he thought the choir was. The choir invited him to join--he didn't want to. The worship committee invited him to join, and to design and lead a couple of music-oriented services--he was "too busy." He finally went so far as to post a whiny letter in the church bulletin. When he got no response, he flounced by submitting a formal letter of resignation to the church. He isn't terribly missed.

An Episcopalian friend told me she once had a prima donna choir director who was the pastor's wife. Their extraordinarily bratty kids were in the junior choir, but were "untouchable." A crappy situation all around.

[activespinster]

update from doggie

This just shows before people are Christian they are human. fundies keep seeming to forget that.

[activespinster]

new post from kb

New family came to church. The adult son stood up at the conversion part of church (the end, where you say you want to accept Jesus into your life/fine, I'll get baptized already, Mom) and said he had done some bad things but was very sorry and was rededicating his life to the Lord. A bit of small-town gossip later, we are all informed that he has recently gotten out of jail after serving time for molesting some kids. Ohhh-kay. He joins the adult choir. No one says anything. Then,

1) he, a man in his late 30s, started dating a girl who was 18 (with her parents' blessing),

2) he exposed himself to a bunch of kids in a very public place, and

3) he decided he wanted to work with the youth choir.

A whole bunch of people were highly opposed to #3, and cited the recent events #1 and #2 as well as his previous conviction on child molestation as reasons why that shouldn't happen. The pastor of our church was all for it, and gave a sermon where he told everyone they needed to forgive and forget and let the guy work with the youth group. There was a small following that agreed with him (including the parents of the girl he was dating*). But the majority of the church was like, "Hells no." We fired the pastor, who left with the few families that thought that child molesters should totes work with youth groups, and they rented space somewhere for a while with plans to start their own church and then their whole thing petered out, I think.

*This girl was very, very nice. She was taken out of public school her freshman year of high school, supposedly, because she was being sexually harassed by the lesbians at the high school. The town is somewhat homophobic--there is no way that there was rampant, out lesbianism at the high school, and that it was so accepted that they were allowed to bully people, and that the administration was then covering it up, which was basically the claim. Anyway, after being homeschooled for four years to avoid the lesbians (also, everyone else her own age, because they were *those* homeschoolers), her parents let (encourage?) her to date a convicted child molester. This wasn't a big scandal, and I don't know where she is right now, but I really think her life would have been much better with different parents.

[activespinster]

new post from CJ007.exjehovahswitne...

At my old church, there was this lady who was basically stalking our Priest. She would write hate-mail and put it in the collection basket! I was walking to my car and she happened to come out at the same time and told me the Priest was deliberately lowering the temperature in the church to "see people suffer". She then started calling the Bishops to report that my Priest was having an affair with the church's female accountant. That was the last straw for the Priest and at the next mass, he said "There is someone here who keeps spreading lies about me to everyone. It needs to stop! You know who you are!" Then he pointed right at her. Very shortly after that, she quit the church and joined another congregation. (I feel sorry for that congregation.)

[activespinster]

new post from Freyacat

The one that comes to mind from my church is just kind of sad. There was an elderly guy who had been a member of the church for decades, and he was mentally slipping. He was a longtime usher. There was suspicion about him stealing from the collection plates at Mass. The priest got the local police involved in this crazy sting operation where they attended Mass and planted marked bills in the plate, then caught him with those bills. The man was arrested and faced charges. However, because of illness his family said he had the mental capacity of a child and may not have understood what he was doing; their big question (that the priest and other diocese officials refused to answer) was: why didn't the priest approach the family, who were all involved in the church, rather than getting the police involved, given that he knew of the man's limited mental abilities? Some parishioners supported the priest, but most thought they way he handled it was inappropriate and in fact un-Christian. My parents are still disgusted by this, and were thrilled when the priest in question left the parish recently.

new post from Alecto

At my former church (and this is why it is former), the congregation happened to be home of 3/4 of the town's school board. The pastor decided that he would use his authority from the pulpit to bully the school board on an issue in regards to his daughter so she could transfer outside of district to play sports.

[activespinster]

new post from ladypuglover

My church is boring compared to what I read here. But when our long awaited 4th son was born Pastor Bob said, " Let us give a big welcome to Lord and Lady Puglover's 4th sin concieved in love and in our Chruch." He had to wait 10 minutes before everyone could stop laughing. I never saw a man so red.

Sorry, but I attend boring churches I guess.

new post from Generation Cedarchips

Wow - I grew up fundie and there were some people in my church who were definitely in touch with their inner crazy, but nothing terribly scandalous went on at the church. It was hyper-conservative and occasionally a kid would rebel and leave, but that happens in many churches. I think one thing that helped was that we had a pastor who was not high on himself and didn't keep too much power concentrated in just his hands. We did have an incident where someone in the congregation cheated on his wife with a teacher at a local Christian school and then after the mistress got pregnant, started bringing her to various church and community functions. Folks who knew him well later said he thought he could embarrass his wife into leaving by doing this and he wanted her to move because he wanted their house so he could "start over" there with his new family. Instead what happened was that a bunch of the elders had their wives go over to the house and stay with thie poor woman so that she wouldn't be alone and they held a meeting and excommunicated the adulterous husband. This didn't really split the church, but you can bet that it got gossiped about for a long, long time.

[activespinster]

new post from Sanveanne

I'm Catholic, so ... uh, pick one. Seriously, though, nothing (at least that I'm aware of) at my actual parish. Our priest is known locally as a very good guy, and there's a younger associate priest, but I don't know him very well. The organist is a bit of a prima donna and occasionally seems to be channeling Elton John, though he's terribly talented and did a fantastic job with our wedding music

Edited to add ... this isn't my church, or denomination, but there is a bit of a ruckus at a large local Protestant church. Background: I write the religion column for the local paper -- just basically a list of special events, new pastors, etc. I'm not even a writer, but I got saddled with the job when the person who previously wrote it quit. Anyway, this church recently had their longtime pastor die, and I wrote up a little item about a new pastor being installed. (The guy was a 40-year member of the congregation, a former associate pastor at the church, and a retired high school principal; according to co-workers at the paper, he's an all-around fantastic guy.) Two weeks later, I get an email saying ANOTHER new pastor has been installed. So I called the church, thinking something has happened to the first guy. Oh, no ... apparently, a fraction of the congregation decided they wanted some OTHER pastor (from a different local church) in charge, and just basically marched up there during Sunday services and "installed" HIM as pastor. No idea why they didn't just start going to the other church if they were so hell-bent on having him as their pastor.

When I realized what was going on, I refused to publish the announcement of the new guy's "installation," because, frankly, it sounded pretty bogus, and I didn't want to lend legitimacy to it, or make it appear as if the paper was taking sides. The woman who submitted the announcement seemed pretty PO'd and insisted that there was nothing in the item she sent me that wasn't true. I wanted to tell her that if I wanted, I could go up on the altar after Mass at my parish and declare myself the new priestess, but it would hardly make it legitimate or newsworthy (apart from the craziness it would involve).

[activespinster]

new post from doggie

kb wrote:

. Anyway, after being homeschooled for four years to avoid the lesbians (also, everyone else her own age, because they were *those* homeschoolers), her parents let (encourage?) her to date a convicted child molester. This wasn't a big scandal, and I don't know where she is right now, but I really think her life would have been much better with different parents.

But he is sill better then a lesbian don't you know. Makes you wonder if the girls in knew she was one too and just talked to her?

[activespinster]

new post from ems

In my old church, there was something innapropriate going on between the youth pastor and a youth group member. YP was fired.

Not a scandal, but when they finally hired a new pastor/rector after a looong term with an "interim" one, she was a lesbian. Even for the Episcopal Church in a very "blue" state, this was controversial to some.

[activespinster]

new post from buddingmedievalist

Freyacat wrote:

The one that comes to mind from my church is just kind of sad. There was an elderly guy who had been a member of the church for decades, and he was mentally slipping. He was a longtime usher. There was suspicion about him stealing from the collection plates at Mass. The priest got the local police involved in this crazy sting operation where they attended Mass and planted marked bills in the plate, then caught him with those bills. The man was arrested and faced charges. However, because of illness his family said he had the mental capacity of a child and may not have understood what he was doing; their big question (that the priest and other diocese officials refused to answer) was: why didn't the priest approach the family, who were all involved in the church, rather than getting the police involved, given that he knew of the man's limited mental abilities? Some parishioners supported the priest, but most thought they way he handled it was inappropriate and in fact un-Christian. My parents are still disgusted by this, and were thrilled when the priest in question left the parish recently.

Oh my goodness, did this happen in NC? Because if it did, I knew that guy... grew up with him (friend of my grandpa's) and he was a wonderful man. So, so sad.

[activespinster]

new post from Raine

The church I grew up in wasn't really fundie (it was Pentecostal Holiness by name, but without the strict rules many of those churches have - lots of teens wore jean shorts & tank tops to church, movies, etc were OK, as was short hair on women & long hair on men - & functioned more like a non-denominational type mega-church). Anyway, after going there for years it came out their our music pastor (head of all the choir programs & leader of the adult choir) had been having a long-term affair with the associate pastor's wife. The skeevy part, he was almost 20 years older than her and this "affair" started when she was 13. She & her husband stayed at the church, and he stayed on as associate pastor, and the music pastor just sort of disappeared, presumably to another church. I just felt really bad for her because she was so young when it started out, and of course became everyone's business when they went up in front of the church to confess it to everyone.

Another church I went to much later was fundie. They had already split in the past before/when the current pastor was installed, but I don't know the details there. What I do know is that the pastor resigned, presumably because he was having an affair, and the story got around that he had moved off and was out drinking, raising hell, etc and so on. The problem was that the pastor's wife's parents were the organist and the one in charge of all the church finances, and rumor has it that what really happened is that they were embezzling money because neither worked and then they were suddenly investing in real estate. Whatever the truth is, the the pastor and his wife were back together about 6 months later, and seem much happier, but almost all of the other fundie preachers and most of their "friends" turned their backs on them. They are both involved in a more liberal church of the same denomination, and now the wife & daughters wear pants, the husband drinks occasionally, but they all seem so much happier. Reading some of the husband/former pastor's posts on a message board (that he thought he was anonymous on at the time), I think he was just burned out and questioning a lot of things and just left instead of trying to fight it, but I feel bad because of what it did to his reputation and to his family when it was all going down.

[activespinster]

new post from Hane.engrishmessageb...

Anecdote I heard from a fellow former-Catholic UU at church last Sunday: Prior to her retirement, she was a newspaper reporter. One day, an ad in the Personals section caught her eye: "Does anyone remember Father Bernie? Call (###)-###-####." Thinking it might make an interesting fluff piece, she called the number--which was for a support group made up of people Father Bernie had molested. It turns out that Father Bernie had been transferred from parish to parish FOREVER, and was still serving as a parish priest. She tried to contact various bishops under whom he'd served, and got no responses. So, one day, she went to a public event one of the bishops was attending, and confronted him as he was leaving. He got red in the face and called her a "blasphemer"--then he told her that it "wasn't as bad as Father So-and-So and his boyfriend in ___town." She countered, "It was WORSE! These were CHILDREN!" He responded, "No, it wasn't," and stalked away.

[activespinster]

new post from Inanna

Back when I was in youth group in a Southern Baptist "super church" in Mississippi, we had a music minister who everyone thought was awesome. He was kind and devout and hilarious when you got him to joking. He also had a son, who was my age, and I had the biggest crush on him because he was basically a younger, hotter version of his father. One Wednesday I came to church and neither of them were there. I inquired about the son, and got a bunch of non-answers. That Sunday we had a new music minister, and everyone else in the church acted like they didn't know who I was talking about when I mentioned the previous one. I was honestly half-convinced that I had somehow imagined them.

It came out years later that one of the church ladies had done some snooping and found out that the music minister was in a (consensual, adult, not-cheating-because-he-wasn't-married) relationship with another man. They called him in the second it was brought to the attention of the church higher-ups - supposedly in the dead of night on a weekday, how dramatic! - and fired him. I don't know what they said to him, but he literally picked up and moved the next day, and we never heard from him again.

Also, a friend of mine married her youth minister when she was 16 and he was in his early 20's. I would have assumed that this would have been a super-scandal in their little Baptist church, but basically the guy was told to resign his position and then given the church's blessing.

[keeks21]

Our head pastor had a relationship with the female worship leader. I remember when I was 10yrs old all the kids came back from Sunday School into the main church and everyone was crying. We didn't stay around for tea and biscuits and went home straight after. We never got told about what was going and it was a few years later that my Mum actually told me what had happened. i'm actually thankful I was kept away from knowing about that.

Within the AOG movement in 2008 a Pastor lied about having cancer, it was a big deal he even wrote a popular song about being healed by God, it was revealed that he lied and he was addicted to Porn instead. It was A Big Deal and it made national news. This ended up shaking my faith to the core because his cancer was well known in the AOG churches and he was prayed over by so many leaders/pastors in our organisation and NO ONE discerned that this was not real. That's when I started to realise that this may not be real.