Josh and Anna 57: Singing the I'm Stuck in the SHU Blues

[viii]

22 minutes ago, fluffernutter said:

Jill portrayed her mom in a much more loving way than I ever imagined Michelle to be. I wonder if Michelle is now questioning everything. The amount of kids, the passes Josh kept getting, the ineffective "therapy" he got every time he fucked up, allowing her kids and grandkids to be around him, the way JB handled the finances, the tv show, on and on... if she has the self-awareness to bear some responsibility, she must be feeling guilty. And could she be pissed as hell at JB? Or is she too immersed in the kool-aid and still sing-songy sweet? I 100% don't think it will ever happen, but imagine if Michelle drop-miked her way out of the whole shit-storm, left him, and got herself therapy. 

I personally doubt Michelle is questioning anything, I think she got the narrative she did because a) Jill still has a relationship with her mom and didn't want to torpedo it and b) I could see the editor wanting Jill to focus on one villain - aka Jim Bob. 

[EmiSue]

5 minutes ago, viii said:

I personally doubt Michelle is questioning anything, I think she got the narrative she did because a) Jill still has a relationship with her mom and didn't want to torpedo it and b) I could see the editor wanting Jill to focus on one villain - aka Jim Bob. 

I agree, but I also didn't see the Holts' divorce coming. It'll be interesting to see how things play out the longer Josh stays in prison, especially since the appeal process seems to have run its course.

[SassyPants]

55 minutes ago, fluffernutter said:

Jill portrayed her mom in a much more loving way than I ever imagined Michelle to be. I wonder if Michelle is now questioning everything. The amount of kids, the passes Josh kept getting, the ineffective "therapy" he got every time he fucked up, allowing her kids and grandkids to be around him, the way JB handled the finances, the tv show, on and on... if she has the self-awareness to bear some responsibility, she must be feeling guilty. And could she be pissed as hell at JB? Or is she too immersed in the kool-aid and still sing-songy sweet? I 100% don't think it will ever happen, but imagine if Michelle drop-miked her way out of the whole shit-storm, left him, and got herself therapy. 

I think IBLP changed everything about the trajectory of this family. Maybe if Michelle had remained a conservative Christian Ala Cathy, DD’s mom, she might have been able to approach JB and change course before core meltdown occurred. The first miscarriage rocked JB and M’s world and they sought safety and answers to build up a protective shell. When did IBLP enter the picture? Was it before or after Josh’s initial abuses? They were looking for a quick fix and safety, and hooked up with a cult. The cult empowered JB as a father and husband. The show, by providing media exposure/fame and money, empowered JB even further. It’s no wonder that JB has fought so hard to maintain the fame and money. 

The kids and Michelle never stood a chance.

[Cam]

22 hours ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

When recounting Josh’s trial, Jill says, “It was increasingly clear that the safest place for Josh, and those around him, was prison.” The bit about Josh’s safety makes me think that if he ever tries to live on the Duggar compound again, he won’t live much longer. 

 

14 hours ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

Yes, of course, but she says “the safest place for Josh AND for those around him” so it’s two thoughts.

 

I get that it’s two thoughts, and see how one could interpret Jill’s words as meaning someone might harm Josh if he were not in prison. However, I take it to mean that Josh being in prison keeps him safe from himself, from being able to download and view csam and worse.

[I can’t say I believe any Duggar siblings would attack Josh, just avoid him, especially the ones with kids of their own. But ya never know. I think Jill could have/should have  explained herself more clearly.]

[Chanel Miller authored one of the most well-written memoirs, “Know My Name”, clearly detailing and expounding on her thought processes. She is the woman who Brock Turner raped.]

Edited September 15, 2023 by Cam

[ExTeach713]

1 hour ago, fluffernutter said:

Jill portrayed her mom in a much more loving way than I ever imagined Michelle to be. I wonder if Michelle is now questioning everything. The amount of kids, the passes Josh kept getting, the ineffective "therapy" he got every time he fucked up, allowing her kids and grandkids to be around him, the way JB handled the finances, the tv show, on and on... if she has the self-awareness to bear some responsibility, she must be feeling guilty. And could she be pissed as hell at JB? Or is she too immersed in the kool-aid and still sing-songy sweet? I 100% don't think it will ever happen, but imagine if Michelle drop-miked her way out of the whole shit-storm, left him, and got herself therapy. 

Michelle needs to question WHY she stood silently and condoned the protection of her son over the four daughters he molested. At that point she should have gotten out and taken all her children not named Josh with her for their protection.

[anjulibai]

I think Michelle lives with a great deal of denial. 

[Coconut Flan]

I took Jill's statement to be Josh can't control himself so the safest place for him is prison where someone (besides JB) is in charge to make strong efforts to keep him out of trouble..  

[Jana814]

7 minutes ago, anjulibai said:

I think Michelle lives with a great deal of denial. 

I agree. I don’t think Jim-Bob told her everything that Josh did. 

[Giraffe]

4 hours ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

On another thread, there was a mention of the rumor that Jim Bob and Josh went to a strip club. It occurred to me that Jim Bob might have been trying to cure Josh’s pedophilia by showing him naked adult women.

I hadn’t thought if it that way but I can see that happening. Women are just objects to JB and The Pedophile so it certainly wouldn’t surprise me to find out JB used sex workers as an object lesson. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

I think IBLP changed everything about the trajectory of this family. Maybe if Michelle had remained a conservative Christian Ala Cathy, DD’s mom, she might have been able to approach JB and change course before core meltdown occurred. The first miscarriage rocked JB and M’s world and they sought safety and answers to build up a protective shell. When did IBLP enter the picture? Was it before or after Josh’s initial abuses? They were looking for a quick fix and safety, and hooked up with a cult. The cult empowered JB as a father and husband. The show, by providing media exposure/fame and money, empowered JB even further. It’s no wonder that JB has fought so hard to maintain the fame and money. 

The kids and Michelle never stood a chance.

JB went to his first Gothard seminar when he was a teen. He thought it was good but he didn’t jump all in yet. Then he and Michelle had a typical conservative Christian relationship and marriage. They had make our sessions but didn’t have sex before marriage. They had jobs and used birth control since they got married as teens. Then the miscarriage happened when they were in their early 20s. I believe that’s when they decided to have a bunch of kids. But they didn’t go all in on Gothard, even though they knew about him, until it was time to homeschool Josh. That’s when they started with ATI. So it was long before Josh started abusing his sisters. I believe they met the Bateses at an IBLP/ATI event close to that time. Because there is a picture of the Bates and Duggar kids all very young. Josh and Zach only looked about age 7. 
 

I wouldn’t be surprised if this was the oldest pic of the Bates and Duggar kids together:

L to R: Josh, JD, Michael holding back Alyssa, Jill, Erin, Jessa, Zach, Lawson, Jinger, Nathan, And Jana. 

Edited September 15, 2023 by JermajestyDuggar

[postscript]

I also noticed the timing on Jill’s accusation and wondered about it. Jill is probably not recalling a verbatim conversation, but I also think Josh did more things that haven’t come out yet. At the very least, the porn addiction seems to have been a real addiction, not just an “addiction” by their terms. 

I see Michelle as the peacekeeper in the family. My mother was part of a large family. The siblings occasionally fell out with each other, but there was one sibling everyone always talked to. She acted as connector between extended family members and probably kept some rifts from getting worse than they did. Michelle seems to play a similar role among the Duggars. Unfortunately, sometimes that means she’s making excuses for Jim Bob or Josh. Ultimately, I think most of the siblings will go no contact or very limited contact with Josh. Some of them would probably do so even if he hadn’t done what he did, simply because of his attitude that he’s better than everyone else. With one or two exceptions among the boys, I get the impression the siblings have never liked or trusted him. 

It will be interesting to see where the grandkids fall as they grow up. There is no way all of them will end up as fundamentalists or even conservative Christians. The really dramatic breaks are likely to happen in the third generation. 

[Xan]

11 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

JB went to his first Gothard seminar when he was a teen. He thought it was good but he didn’t jump all in yet. Then he and Michelle had a typical conservative Christian relationship and marriage. They had make our sessions but didn’t have sex before marriage. They had jobs and used birth control since they got married as teens. Then the miscarriage happened when they were in their early 20s. I believe that’s when they decided to have a bunch of kids.

The trouble with finding out people have lied about major things is that you start to question their honesty about everything.  I'm no longer sure that the miscarriage pushed them into being Quiverfull.  I think maybe Jim Bob realized how easily Michelle became pregnant and thought that he might like a bunch of kids loving and revering him.  Michelle appears to have been easily led then by Jim Bob and he could have convinced her that God wanted them to avoid birth control.

It all started to come together for Jim Bob when they were around more IBLP families and he saw what a good deal it was for men.  They could control everything -- no questions asked or allowed.  For a control freak like JB, fundamentalism was a perfect fit.

[Cam]

I think the story about Josh and JB at a strip club is nothing more than urban legend. A totally false narrative that some people want to believe despite zero proof whatsoever.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Cam

[SassyPants]

22 minutes ago, Cam said:

I think the story about Josh and JB at a strip club is nothing more than urban legend. A totally false narrative that some people want to believe despite zero proof whatsoever.

In the past I dismissed it, but not any more. Jb is as slimy and entitled as they come. So many past rumors surrounding this family have turned out to be proven true-

[medimus]

17 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

JB went to his first Gothard seminar when he was a teen. He thought it was good but he didn’t jump all in yet. Then he and Michelle had a typical conservative Christian relationship and marriage. They had make our sessions but didn’t have sex before marriage. They had jobs and used birth control since they got married as teens. Then the miscarriage happened when they were in their early 20s. I believe that’s when they decided to have a bunch of kids. But they didn’t go all in on Gothard, even though they knew about him, until it was time to homeschool Josh. That’s when they started with ATI. So it was long before Josh started abusing his sisters. I believe they met the Bateses at an IBLP/ATI event close to that time. Because there is a picture of the Bates and Duggar kids all very young. Josh and Zach only looked about age 7. 
 

I wouldn’t be surprised if this was the oldest pic of the Bates and Duggar kids together:

L to R: Josh, JD, Michael holding back Alyssa, Jill, Erin, Jessa, Zach, Lawson, Jinger, Nathan, And Jana. 

Interesting photo. There must be a few more children because Alyssa looks like she is over a year old, so probably in 96 ish? But where is Joseph then? 

What strikes me is the difference in clothing between the Bates and Duggar children. The Duggar boys have shirts and nice trousers on, while the Bates boys have polos and the little one has shorts. The Duggar girls have bows in their hair and big fluffy dresses and those 'pantaloons' on, while I recognise the Bates girls clothes as something I might have worn in the nineties, especially Michael's tshirt and pinafore dress combo. But also peter pan collared dresses with ruffle socks. No pantaloons here.

[JermajestyDuggar]

12 minutes ago, medimus said:

Interesting photo. There must be a few more children because Alyssa looks like she is over a year old, so probably in 96 ish? But where is Joseph then? 

What strikes me is the difference in clothing between the Bates and Duggar children. The Duggar boys have shirts and nice trousers on, while the Bates boys have polos and the little one has shorts. The Duggar girls have bows in their hair and big fluffy dresses and those 'pantaloons' on, while I recognise the Bates girls clothes as something I might have worn in the nineties, especially Michael's tshirt and pinafore dress combo. But also peter pan collared dresses with ruffle socks. No pantaloons here.

I think the babies weren’t in the photo. Probably because they couldn’t stand on their own. But yes, the Duggars are dressing differently than the Bateses because of those stupid pantaloons. 

[Cam]

18 minutes ago, medimus said:

Interesting photo. There must be a few more children because Alyssa looks like she is over a year old, so probably in 96 ish? But where is Joseph then? 

What strikes me is the difference in clothing between the Bates and Duggar children. The Duggar boys have shirts and nice trousers on, while the Bates boys have polos and the little one has shorts. The Duggar girls have bows in their hair and big fluffy dresses and those 'pantaloons' on, while I recognise the Bates girls clothes as something I might have worn in the nineties, especially Michael's tshirt and pinafore dress combo. But also peter pan collared dresses with ruffle socks. No pantaloons here.

Speaking of Bates, I betcha Gil and his wife (and their adult kids) read Jill’s book. Hasn’t there always been underlying competition between the two couples?  I love JB being humiliated this way.

[Four is Enough]

22 hours ago, Queen Of Hearts said:

I think Michelle is pretty much done with Josh, too.  I got that impression by her lack of support/showing up at his trial

Michelle is being Michelle. She didn't want to go to the trial because she didn't want to hear any testimony about her golden boy. Besides, by not going, she could pretend to be an upset, overwhelmed mother. Like this:

Quote

19 hours ago, ExTeach713 said:

Michelle needs to question WHY she stood silently and condoned the protection of her son over the four daughters he molested. At that point she should have gotten out and taken all her children not named Josh with her for their protection.

I don't know why she did it. Was she under JB's control and "protection"?  Or are girls simply less important than boys? After all, the male is to be the head of the home and the guide and protection.. what happens to the female is, according to Gothard, her fault.. I think JB silenced her and maybe threatened her in some way. Of course, that was in the middle of their speechifying at Big Sandy, with the "adoring looks".... maybe she really did "adore" him at that time..

[Father Son Holy Goat]

On 9/15/2023 at 4:51 PM, katilac said:

Where do you live that it's not that hard to get licensed as a counselor? 

I'm in the US, and in my state you must earn a master's degree, complete an internship of 300 hours and a supervised practicum of 600 hours, pass the exam, and then complete 3,000 supervised hours.  

I’m in Massachusetts, it’s very hard to become a therapist/counselor. Personally I think it should be harder; the amount incompetence, cruelty, and uncaring behavior I and others in the mental health system have endured is astounding.

 

On 9/15/2023 at 11:46 AM, fluffernutter said:

Jill portrayed her mom in a much more loving way than I ever imagined Michelle to be. I wonder if Michelle is now questioning everything. The amount of kids, the passes Josh kept getting, the ineffective "therapy" he got every time he fucked up, allowing her kids and grandkids to be around him, the way JB handled the finances, the tv show, on and on... if she has the self-awareness to bear some responsibility, she must be feeling guilty. And could she be pissed as hell at JB? Or is she too immersed in the kool-aid and still sing-songy sweet? I 100% don't think it will ever happen, but imagine if Michelle drop-miked her way out of the whole shit-storm, left him, and got herself therapy. 

She may be questioning but I doubt it. Michelle doesn’t seem the type to question her actions. 
 

On 9/15/2023 at 2:34 PM, Xan said:

The trouble with finding out people have lied about major things is that you start to question their honesty about everything.  I'm no longer sure that the miscarriage pushed them into being Quiverfull.  I think maybe Jim Bob realized how easily Michelle became pregnant and thought that he might like a bunch of kids loving and revering him.  Michelle appears to have been easily led then by Jim Bob and he could have convinced her that God wanted them to avoid birth control.

It all started to come together for Jim Bob when they were around more IBLP families and he saw what a good deal it was for men.  They could control everything -- no questions asked or allowed.  For a control freak like JB, fundamentalism was a perfect fit.

Jim Bob and Michelle were married very young, she was 17. I believe she probably was easy to manipulate due to her age, not having family in the area, and any abuse/neglect she may have experienced. 
 

On 9/15/2023 at 6:53 PM, Cam said:

I think the story about Josh and JB at a strip club is nothing more than urban legend. A totally false narrative that some people want to believe despite zero proof whatsoever.

At one point Josh sexually abusing his sisters was whispered around the internet but we know now it was true. I’m not saying this rumor is true, I am saying I believe it’s possible.

[GreenBeans]

19 hours ago, Four is Enough said:

I don't know why she did it. Was she under JB's control and "protection"?  Or are girls simply less important than boys? After all, the male is to be the head of the home and the guide and protection..

Didn’t they make it sound like it’s completely normal in their circles when the scandal of Josh molesting his siblings broke? As awful as that would be, but maybe she just didn’t think it was a big deal, because “it happens in most families” (or however they phrased it). 

[Cam]

There are so many goonie looking dudes who resemble JB and Josh that for an anonymous person on the internet to say, with no substantiation, they thought the two were spotted at a strip club is way too much conjecture for me. I could never believe it based on that, nor do I think it’s something JB would do. If anything, someone saw a couple dudes who reminded them of JB and Josh in/around/near a strip club and ran with it. Rumors of Josh abusing his sisters circled because viewers of the show noticed strange behavior and got weird vibes from him that something was off. In itself, going to a strip club isn’t generally considered deviant behavior, tho religious folk consider it morally wrong. But “strip club” is one of the most frequent guesses on Family Feud; it’s accepted that many men frequent them. Still, I don’t see JB going that route at all.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Cam

[MariaariaM]

I might've believed it if it was supposed to have happened somewhere far from their home where they would've expected anonymity. They don't respect women, they don't respect the rules they want others to follow, and JB could even have thought keeping Josh' mind busy with grown-ups would be a good thing. Not somewhere where so many people knew them though. He CARES about his image.

What really killed the story for me was the accompanying supposed quote. Not sure if I'm getting it perfect here (I read it on Reddit once, ages ago) but my brain can't imagine him uttering the words "throw it back for a real one". Does not compute.

 

(Habitual lurker. Hi.)

[GuineaPigCourtship]

I agree that I could easily imagine Josh at a strip club, but not JB.  He doesn't respect women - there are only two things he really cares about.  His image and money.  He would never spend money to willfully destroy his image.

[JermajestyDuggar]

I’m just imagining dumb ass Josh wearing a fake mustache and a baseball hat expecting it to be a great disguise in a strip club. 

[Jana814]

I can definitely see Josh going to strip club. Didn’t he go to one.