Josh and Anna 57: Singing the I'm Stuck in the SHU Blues

[Father Son Holy Goat]

21 minutes ago, Giraffe said:

And that's why the US refuses to allow prisoners to vote. 

Yep. Which is sad. Some people do need to be kept away from society for their safety and everyone else’s but they should be treated with basic respect and dignity. 

[Expectopatronus]

What safe guards are in place to ensure that judges don’t simply deny the appeal because they are icked out by the offence ? If those who speculated that in an election year no Supreme Court justice would hear a case regarding child sexual abuse are correct, that seems a bit unfair to me. Aren’t judges supposed to blind to public opinion? Our legal system is definitely not without its flaws but it feels safer to me to have judges who do not have to curry favour of the public. 

[flowergirl]

In Germany, prisoners keep their right to vote. And I'm so glad they do. 

But also, here every vote counts equally. We don't have electoral college. Just thinking that only the votes of the majority of people count, while the other votes are simply "lost". That sounds so frustrating and really not fair. 

When elections of the US president come up and I hear about "state x votes red/blue, that y amount of presidential electors" I'm like "but what about the other votes? People voted, their votes should matter, that's how democracy works". 

[Coconut Flan]

1 hour ago, Expectopatronus said:

What safe guards are in place to ensure that judges don’t simply deny the appeal because they are icked out by the offence ? If those who speculated that in an election year no Supreme Court justice would hear a case regarding child sexual abuse are correct, that seems a bit unfair to me. Aren’t judges supposed to blind to public opinion? Our legal system is definitely not without its flaws but it feels safer to me to have judges who do not have to curry favour of the public. 

Josh's appeal won't be heard because it's nothing the Supreme Court needs to decide.  The trial court judge's ruling follows established rules and precedent and is nothing at all out of the ordinary.  That has nothing to do with Josh's crime.  For the Supreme Court to rule there needs to be at least a hint of an irregularity, novel aspect, disagreement among lower courts, procedural error, or similar.  Josh doesn't have that.  He has a father willing to waste money and attorneys willing to take his money and even drive up the costs filing extension requests on everything.  

[marmalade]

It's my understanding that the defense is saying that Smuggar was improperly interrogated at the car lot during the raid, so it's procedural. They've already lost on these grounds. No way the Supremes hear this. 

[Kiki03910]

3 hours ago, flowergirl said:

In Germany, prisoners keep their right to vote. And I'm so glad they do. 

But also, here every vote counts equally. We don't have electoral college. Just thinking that only the votes of the majority of people count, while the other votes are simply "lost". That sounds so frustrating and really not fair. 

When elections of the US president come up and I hear about "state x votes red/blue, that y amount of presidential electors" I'm like "but what about the other votes? People voted, their votes should matter, that's how democracy works". 

The Electoral College is a disastrous compromise that resulted from slave states demanding more power. We're paying the price for that immoral decision to this day.

https://www.history.com/news/electoral-college-founding-fathers-constitutional-convention

[Father Son Holy Goat]

All of this makes me wonder why Jim Bob, a man who has shown himself to be shrewd with business and money, is continuing to pay for what is clearly a lost cause. Are Josh and Jim Bob so deluded they can’t see further appeals are a waste of money? Does Josh have something on Jim Bob, maybe financial skeletons? I feel like we’re missing something. 

[FiveAcres]

2 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

All of this makes me wonder why Jim Bob, a man who has shown himself to be shrewd with business and money, is continuing to pay for what is clearly a lost cause. Are Josh and Jim Bob so deluded they can’t see further appeals are a waste of money? Does Josh have something on Jim Bob, maybe financial skeletons? I feel like we’re missing something. 

JimBob's is ignorant, arrogant and vain. JimBob cannot admit that he made fundamental mistakes in dealing with Josh when Josh assaulted his younger siblings. JimBob will never admit that his oldest son is a sexual predator and that the Duggar family cult, modeled on IBLP, promotes and protects sexual predation. Therefore, JimBob has to pursue every possible avenue, or he is admitting that he, JimBob, was conned, both by Goddard, and his sexual predator son.

JimBob's vanity is actually amazing. If I understand the timeline correctly, Josh was already "acting out" when TLC started waving that sweet, green cash for the specials. Under those circumstances, it takes a special sort of arrogance to decide, "yep, we are a model IBLP family and should invite cameras into the house to promote our ideals."

[Cam]

2 hours ago, FiveAcres said:

JimBob's is ignorant, arrogant and vain. JimBob cannot admit that he made fundamental mistakes in dealing with Josh when Josh assaulted his younger siblings. JimBob will never admit that his oldest son is a sexual predator and that the Duggar family cult, modeled on IBLP, promotes and protects sexual predation. Therefore, JimBob has to pursue every possible avenue, or he is admitting that he, JimBob, was conned, both by Goddard, and his sexual predator son.

JimBob's vanity is actually amazing. If I understand the timeline correctly, Josh was already "acting out" when TLC started waving that sweet, green cash for the specials. Under those circumstances, it takes a special sort of arrogance to decide, "yep, we are a model IBLP family and should invite cameras into the house to promote our ideals."

I whole heartedly agree with all of this. JB liked to publicly profess God was his motivating factor but surprise, surprise, in reality it was money. And fame. And power.
 

What we’ve learned is that the Duggar family was not the “model” IBLP family, but they were the “typical” IBLP family since, according to JB in his Meghyn Kelly interview about the molestations: “As we talked to other parents and different ones since then, a lot of families have said that they had similar things happen in their families.”

 

[gustava]

22 hours ago, Maggie Mae said:

Virginia must be one of the five I mentioned, then. That I couldn't remember. Or things changed recently. 

The previous Dem governor was more generous.  Dumkin is a Maggot.

[noseybutt]

11 hours ago, Expectopatronus said:

What safe guards are in place to ensure that judges don’t simply deny the appeal because they are icked out by the offence ? If those who speculated that in an election year no Supreme Court justice would hear a case regarding child sexual abuse are correct, that seems a bit unfair to me. Aren’t judges supposed to blind to public opinion? Our legal system is definitely not without its flaws but it feels safer to me to have judges who do not have to curry favour of the public. 

The judiciary (especially SCOTUS) is supposed to be apolitical and fair but I am not sure they ever fully achieved that goal. Lately it has become particularly bad with SCOTUS.  It’s not just the politically charged selection and confirmation process, but also use of the shadow docket, poor ethics around accepting money and gifts from businesses and individuals and political groups, serious concerns around appearance rather than substance, etc. 

American democracy is precarious.

 The judges typically do a good job managing their emotions around gruesome aspects of case. It’s restraint on their political motivations that is far more common and problematic.

The newest SCOTUS appointee, Judge Brown, was grilled viciously during her hearings by Senator Harley of Missouri about supposedly being soft on child porn due to her sentencing history. Newsflash: she isn’t soft but did suggest lower terms than federal guidelines for a few cases where defendants were teens and had zero history of hands-on offending. This is consistent with data on risk and recidivism.

It was a cheap shot by Hawley given the previous appointee (Barrett) had ZERO trial judge experience and thus never sentenced anyone.

That is why I said upthread that child porn cases are unlikely to be heard any time close to an election.

That said, Josh’s case almost certainly would not be touched during regular times. First, because there are so many cases and his is small potatoes. Also appeal courts and SCOTUS never revisit the issue of guilt, rather they are looking at procedural issues and, well, the issues his attorneys are putting forth are exceptionally weak.

 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, FiveAcres said:

JimBob's is ignorant, arrogant and vain. JimBob cannot admit that he made fundamental mistakes in dealing with Josh when Josh assaulted his younger siblings. JimBob will never admit that his oldest son is a sexual predator and that the Duggar family cult, modeled on IBLP, promotes and protects sexual predation. Therefore, JimBob has to pursue every possible avenue, or he is admitting that he, JimBob, was conned, both by Goddard, and his sexual predator son.

JimBob's vanity is actually amazing. If I understand the timeline correctly, Josh was already "acting out" when TLC started waving that sweet, green cash for the specials. Under those circumstances, it takes a special sort of arrogance to decide, "yep, we are a model IBLP family and should invite cameras into the house to promote our ideals."

All this plus it is obvious that this is a court aligned with the religious right ideologically. Jim Bob is just that arrogant to think his fame and religious beliefs and political connections might help. 

[Coconut Flan]

10 hours ago, marmalade said:

It's my understanding that the defense is saying that Smuggar was improperly interrogated at the car lot during the raid, so it's procedural. They've already lost on these grounds. No way the Supremes hear this. 

What I heard is that they're saying they couldn't call Caleb Williams (I think that's his name).  They could call him, but the judge restricted them from asking about his prior conviction as that could confuse the jury.  This is Caleb who was in another state when the crime was committed.  Josh's attorney did itend to use Caleb's prior conviction to confuse the jury it appears to me.  That probably still makes JB mad that he can't pull that puppet string.  

I have admittedly not read any of their paperwork.  Possibly they are claiming both.  

Edited December 22, 2023 by Coconut Flan

[Giraffe]

8 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

All of this makes me wonder why Jim Bob, a man who has shown himself to be shrewd with business and money, is continuing to pay for what is clearly a lost cause. Are Josh and Jim Bob so deluded they can’t see further appeals are a waste of money? Does Josh have something on Jim Bob, maybe financial skeletons? I feel like we’re missing something. 

 

5 hours ago, FiveAcres said:

JimBob's is ignorant, arrogant and vain. JimBob cannot admit that he made fundamental mistakes in dealing with Josh when Josh assaulted his younger siblings. JimBob will never admit that his oldest son is a sexual predator and that the Duggar family cult, modeled on IBLP, promotes and protects sexual predation. Therefore, JimBob has to pursue every possible avenue, or he is admitting that he, JimBob, was conned, both by Goddard, and his sexual predator son.

JimBob's vanity is actually amazing. If I understand the timeline correctly, Josh was already "acting out" when TLC started waving that sweet, green cash for the specials. Under those circumstances, it takes a special sort of arrogance to decide, "yep, we are a model IBLP family and should invite cameras into the house to promote our ideals."

My speculation is it's a combination of what both of you have proposed. I believe there are absolutely more skeletons in JB's closet that he doesn't want to get out (and that the predator knows). But I also think JB is arrogant enough to waste a shit ton of money on a hopeless campaign. 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Giraffe
Spelling

[Jackie3]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:12 PM, Father Son Holy Goat said:

Yep. Which is sad. Some people do need to be kept away from society for their safety and everyone else’s but they should be treated with basic respect and dignity. 

Voting is a privilege that should not be extended to people watch baby torture.  If Josh Duggar can't vote, I don't feel sad for him.

Same with murderers. Their victims can't vote, because they are dead. Why should they?

 

[AussieKrissy]

On 12/22/2023 at 1:17 PM, Vivi_music said:

That is so crazy to me. Canadians who are incarcerated retain their right to vote. They even vote in the riding that was their last known address or even the address of their spouse, partner, next of kin, etc.

They actually set up voting polls in the prisons in the days before the general election day.

In Australia they retain the right to vote also but only certain inmates are allowed to vote. I think their sentence has to be be under a certain amount of time or they are an appellant or on remand. 23 years in the industry and I forget the guidelines until every election comes up. 
No one should loose (permanently) the right to vote. I have no idea the legality of denying some of our inmates the right to vote but it sounds way better than being denied totally. 

[Expectopatronus]

Part of me wonders if JB is throwing money at this case because Josh took the fall for a crime that involved more than him. Maybe Anna was right when she said there was more to the story. Josh 100% installed the partition and likely knows/knew who downloaded it and that it was there but he may not have been the one to do it. Heck, there may have multiple IBLP cronies involved and JB figured the family name would ensure that Josh walked. It would explain why Josh didn’t take the stand in his own defence; he couldn’t be trusted to not sing like a canary when he knew he was going down. 
This doesn’t mean that I think he is innocent; only Josh knows for sure what he did or did not do but I would not faint from shock if it eventually comes out that he was not the only one in their circle that was involved. 

[GuineaPigCourtship]

I think the only way JB wouldn't have sold out anyone else would be if more than one brother was involved.  I'm not speculating at all - we already know Josh is a sick fucker and I sure hope he's the only one in the family - but I can't see him protecting anyone else at that cost of his family name.  Unless it was him, but again I tend towards occam's razor on this one.  For sure if he had thought Josh was going to walk due to his name, new facts would have come out in the appeal after he didn't.

[Father Son Holy Goat]

18 hours ago, Expectopatronus said:

Part of me wonders if JB is throwing money at this case because Josh took the fall for a crime that involved more than him. Maybe Anna was right when she said there was more to the story. Josh 100% installed the partition and likely knows/knew who downloaded it and that it was there but he may not have been the one to do it. Heck, there may have multiple IBLP cronies involved and JB figured the family name would ensure that Josh walked. It would explain why Josh didn’t take the stand in his own defence; he couldn’t be trusted to not sing like a canary when he knew he was going down. 
This doesn’t mean that I think he is innocent; only Josh knows for sure what he did or did not do but I would not faint from shock if it eventually comes out that he was not the only one in their circle that was involved. 

I’ve wondered this too, if there was more to this than just Josh.

[waltraute]

19 hours ago, Expectopatronus said:

but he may not have been the one to do it.

I can't go down this road. Josh has a history of documented paedophilia; it's not just a one-time thing. He is the most likely and obvious candidate and besides, it was proven in court he was in that office when it was downloaded. We are trying to figure out why JB is handling this the way he is but as we've seen, he often does not behave in a way that any of us would call rational. Remember, he ran for office while his son was heading for trial. Explain that one. (Not pointing this at you @Expectopatronus, but to all of us in general).

If you want to go for the most likely root-cause possibilities, follow the money. There are shady goings on in Duggarland I'm sure, and I'd bet anything it's all tied to finances and that car lot was probably in the thick of it.

Josh, though, he's on his own for his crimes.

 

[ifosterkittens]

I wonder if Jim Bob thinks he is more "connected" or influential than he really is. Or maybe he thought he already invested a huge amount of money into Josh's defense and appeal, why not exhaust every option. I can see why the Duggars don't like the outcome, but after a thorough investigation and trial with incredibly competent defense attorneys who clearly had plenty of time and money to devote to just Josh's case, they zealously advocated for their client and ultimately the guilty person was found guilty of his crimes. Expensive lawyers can't change the damning, no doubt about it, evidence that Josh committed the crime. 

Jim Bob didn't want the negative attention. If the case focused solely on the crime Josh was convicted of that would be one thing, but the judge allowed in Josh's prior bad acts (crimes against his sisters), and Bobbi's testimony of Jim Bob's inaction and failure to protect his daughters, and choice to instead protect his son was damning to the Duggar brand. Jim Bob doesn't want to be held accountable for his actions, and legally he won't be, but the court of public opinion spoke loudly. JB lost in the election he probably thought was a slam dunk. Some people may want him to attend and speak at their events, but I bet it is nowhere near the range of opportunities he had before Josh's arrest. 

 

[Giraffe]

1 hour ago, ifosterkittens said:

I wonder if Jim Bob thinks he is more "connected" or influential than he really is.

This is exactly what I believe JB believes. The man was arrogant enough to tell a judge info wasn't going to be presented in court! JB believes he's above the law. 

[marmalade]

JB was also all about protecting HIS reputation. That took quite the hit after the conviction. The Duggars are no longer on the lecture circuit, where they used to be stalwarts. They've become even more insular. Life with JB is probably very unpleasant these days. 

[GreenBeans]

14 hours ago, ifosterkittens said:

Or maybe he thought he already invested a huge amount of money into Josh's defense and appeal, why not exhaust every option.

It may just be the usual fundie entitlement and stubbornness and general delusion, refusing to acknowledge the obvious. He just can’t accept that his son has been tried and found guilty. It MUST be a mistake! Evil liberals are found to be criminals, but not his son! They are a good Christian family, and SOMEONE finally has to see that! 

[Father Son Holy Goat]

In both Josh and Jim Bob’s case admitting Josh is guilty means having to accept some accountability for their actions and they can’t bring themselves to accept even the limited accountability given to males in fundamentalism. 

[waltraute]

10 minutes ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

In both Josh and Jim Bob’s case admitting Josh is guilty means having to accept some accountability for their actions and they can’t bring themselves to accept even the limited accountability given to males in fundamentalism. 

Yes. Josh knows he's guilty and JB absolutely knows Josh is guilty but it's like you say, admitting it would require accountability. They will point fingers, play the blame game and pretend to be the victims, anything but admit the crime, accept the judgment, and atone for the wrongdoings.

 

10 hours ago, GreenBeans said:

It may just be the usual fundie entitlement and stubbornness and general delusion, refusing to acknowledge the obvious. He just can’t accept that his son has been tried and found guilty

He knows that Josh is guilty, and you're right, he can't accept that Josh has been tried and found guilty and that he (JB) couldn't come in and command things to go his way.