Josh and Anna 53: 151 Month Sentence

[GiggleOfGirls]

3 hours ago, Cam said:

I was definitely conditioned socially to be polite and mannerly altho the phrase “if you can’t say something nice don’t say anything” wasn’t specifically taught to me. I know all the tricks of finding nice things to say in awkward situations, like if someone’s outfit looks hideous find something redeeming to say like, “I love the color”. Or if god awful food is served: “thanks for spending the time to make dinner.” 
 

I dislike when others laugh about and excuse someone who’s blunt and says exactly what’s on their mind the minute they think it by saying, “Oh, she/he’s so funny! They have no filter!” To me, having no filter seems like an excuse to be rude, an excuse for never thinking before you speak. It gets obnoxious and can sometimes come across as bullying. While I can appreciate honesty, I do prefer some refinement. 
 

 

I’m autistic so can struggle with tone of voice and such, but my wording (for planned difficult discussions) is typically excellent (homeschooled by a lawyer). 
 

When I’m surprised by a difficult truth needing to be said then I can still mostly manage kindness with the sandwich method, but I usually need to take a moment and think, which can sometimes be interpreted poorly by folks who don’t know me very well.
 

When my best friend was trying to figure out whether to divorce her husband, I never told her to leave; but I did speak with her at length about the sunk cost fallacy and I asked probing questions to try and help her decide what would be the best course of action for herself (I also was clear that I supported her no matter what).
 

I absolutely did call her out (several months into her trying to decide) when she was upset about something her then-husband was doing. I told her she needed to decide if she was staying with him or going. Her feelings were valid regardless, but only if she wanted to stay with him were her feelings something he needed to take into account.

 

She did end up leaving (many years ago) and is infinitely happier now! Her ex was a real asshole and has only gotten worse since they separated.

 

In my experience most people want to feel heard and supported, and then they’ll listen and be open to hearing difficult truths from others.

[Bobology]

23 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I’m surprised JB didn’t force one of his sons to be a physical support- ALL those people and he was a lone man on sentencing day.

My personal opinion of JB is that he has no honest decency for anyone but himself. Your insomniac thoughts do make me wonder if maybe JB does, as many have said, know without a doubt that Josh is guilty and disgusting (in a way different from JB's own guilt and disgust) and showed just a shred of decency by not asking/forcing one of his sons to be the trial gofer. Maybe he wanted to leave them out of it.

[Mela99]

Manipulation doesn’t always require intelligence, just awareness of what buttons to push. Anna probably knows a lot of the buttons that work in her community, plus she seems to be very persistent.

That is true. That is very true.

I would like to know what Anna says to herself every night before she goes to sleep.

[Satan'sFortress]

34 minutes ago, GiggleOfGirls said:

When I’m surprised by a difficult truth needing to be said then I can still mostly manage kindness with the sandwich method, but I usually need to take a moment and think, which can sometimes be interpreted poorly by folks who don’t know me very well.

If every one of us, regardless of autism status, would "take a moment and think," I think this world would be a much better place.

[Bobology]

2 minutes ago, Mela99 said:

I would like to know what Anna says to herself every night before she goes to sleep.

I love Joshua.
I love Joshua.
I love Joshua.
I'm supposed to love Joshua no matter what so I love Joshua.

 

[Satan'sFortress]

39 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I had a thought last night ( insomnia), how come last week at sentencing ( and maybe during the trial too) David Waller appeared to be JB’s support system, file carrier and most recently driver. JB has a plethora of adult sons and were any of them called upon? Did they refuse? For all the shit they’ve coerced their daughters into doing from giving blood for Josie, to mothering and the Megyn Kelly interview (Jessa and Jill), I’m surprised JB didn’t force one of his sons to be a physical support- ALL those people and he was a lone man on sentencing day. Sort of shows you what they all must think of him.

You'd think they may have shown up for Anna, at least.

[Dandruff]

40 minutes ago, Bobology said:

My personal opinion of JB is that he has no honest decency for anyone but himself. Your insomniac thoughts do make me wonder if maybe JB does, as many have said, know without a doubt that Josh is guilty and disgusting (in a way different from JB's own guilt and disgust) and showed just a shred of decency by not asking/forcing one of his sons to be the trial gofer. Maybe he wanted to leave them out of it.

I suspect JB may still be harboring some hope of eventually reviving the family gravy train, and so doesn't want another son dragged into the ugly.  JB can support Josh because he's his father.  David Waller can, because he's a pastor.  If a brother supports Josh, then people (IMO) might start wondering about that brother.

[imokit]

I think JB has limited control of his children.  JD is a pilot and may or may not be relying on JB's money.  Joe and Josiah have wives with supportive families, as do most of the married sons.  Of the married girls only Jessa may be relying on him.  Jill, Jinger and Joy are being supported by husbands and their families.

If JB could control his children, an adult son still living at home wouldn't have gone to the trial with a sister and not with JB.  Nor would that son have released a statement supporting the sentence, when Michelle (and by extension JB) wanted minimum time. (Michelle wrote the letter to the judge).

Josh has never been very close to his siblings.  There are huge gaps even between him and 3rd boy Joe.  It left Josh, JD as only boy sibling to actually play with semi-equally.  I don't think many of them have liked him or like him.  Most of the boys are closer to each other and the sisters who raised them (Jana, Jill, Jessa, Jinger) or played with them (Joy).

JB clearly doesn't have the control to get any of them to pretend to like Josh, not only that but children living at home have the confidence to go against him publicly.

He must not know who to rage against.  As far as he's concerned most of his adult children have publicly humiliated him with both Josh and Jason being extra bad offenders.  I wouldn't want to be Jason in that house right now.  Josh is safe and hiding from JB's anger in prison.  Jason needs JB to access pluming.

[Carol]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

I had a thought last night ( insomnia), how come last week at sentencing ( and maybe during the trial too) David Waller appeared to be JB’s support system, file carrier and most recently driver. JB has a plethora of adult sons and were any of them called upon? Did they refuse? For all the shit they’ve coerced their daughters into doing from giving blood for Josie, to mothering and the Megyn Kelly interview (Jessa and Jill), I’m surprised JB didn’t force one of his sons to be a physical support- ALL those people and he was a lone man on sentencing day. Sort of shows you what they all must think of him.

I may be remembering this incorrectly and if so I apologize.  Didn't this same person come up as a David Waller clone during the trial and someone determined it wasn't him but a member of Josh's defense team?

[Idlewild]

52 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

I suspect JB may still be harboring some hope of eventually reviving the family gravy train, and so doesn't want another son dragged into the ugly.  JB can support Josh because he's his father.  David Waller can, because he's a pastor.  If a brother supports Josh, then people (IMO) might start wondering about that brother.

I can see this being the case. JB was deluded enough to run for office last year- he isn’t ready to let go of the Duggar brand just yet.

[QuiverFullofBooks]

1 hour ago, imokit said:

I think JB has limited control of his children.  JD is a pilot and may or may not be relying on JB's money.  Joe and Josiah have wives with supportive families, as do most of the married sons.  Of the married girls only Jessa may be relying on him.  Jill, Jinger and Joy are being supported by husbands and their families.

If JB could control his children, an adult son still living at home wouldn't have gone to the trial with a sister and not with JB.  Nor would that son have released a statement supporting the sentence, when Michelle (and by extension JB) wanted minimum time. (Michelle wrote the letter to the judge).

Josh has never been very close to his siblings.  There are huge gaps even between him and 3rd boy Joe.  It left Josh, JD as only boy sibling to actually play with semi-equally.  I don't think many of them have liked him or like him.  Most of the boys are closer to each other and the sisters who raised them (Jana, Jill, Jessa, Jinger) or played with them (Joy).

JB clearly doesn't have the control to get any of them to pretend to like Josh, not only that but children living at home have the confidence to go against him publicly.

He must not know who to rage against.  As far as he's concerned most of his adult children have publicly humiliated him with both Josh and Jason being extra bad offenders.  I wouldn't want to be Jason in that house right now.  Josh is safe and hiding from JB's anger in prison.  Jason needs JB to access pluming.

I dunno. I think he’s mad at Josh and the media, not necessarily at Jason. Remember that he didn’t write a letter or make a statement. I seriously doubt that he’s mad at Joy, and the others mostly stayed out of it. He was previously estranged from Jill and Amy, so probably no harm done there. Also, I don’t think that he’s supporting the Seewalds. Ben has a job now, they bought a house, and Jessa has some YouTube income. 

[arareyeah]

It's either he has no control over his kids anymore, or banned them from coming to prevent another "thumbs up happy face" moment like that Mama Spivey's favourite son in law.

[Cam]

1 hour ago, imokit said:

I think JB has limited control of his children.  JD is a pilot and may or may not be relying on JB's money.  Joe and Josiah have wives with supportive families, as do most of the married sons.  Of the married girls only Jessa may be relying on him.  Jill, Jinger and Joy are being supported by husbands and their families.

If JB could control his children, an adult son still living at home wouldn't have gone to the trial with a sister and not with JB.  Nor would that son have released a statement supporting the sentence, when Michelle (and by extension JB) wanted minimum time. (Michelle wrote the letter to the judge).

Josh has never been very close to his siblings.  There are huge gaps even between him and 3rd boy Joe.  It left Josh, JD as only boy sibling to actually play with semi-equally.  I don't think many of them have liked him or like him.  Most of the boys are closer to each other and the sisters who raised them (Jana, Jill, Jessa, Jinger) or played with them (Joy).

JB clearly doesn't have the control to get any of them to pretend to like Josh, not only that but children living at home have the confidence to go against him publicly.

He must not know who to rage against.  As far as he's concerned most of his adult children have publicly humiliated him with both Josh and Jason being extra bad offenders.  I wouldn't want to be Jason in that house right now.  Josh is safe and hiding from JB's anger in prison.  Jason needs JB to access pluming.

It would seem JB was not very forward thinking when the kids were young. He was in the moment, basking in the tv spotlight, sheltering the kids and having them cow-tow to his wishes. It doesn’t seem it ever occurred to him that the kids would become adults and question the status quo. It’s like he really, truly, honestly believed submissive daughters would never have it in them to go against dad. He thought he had it made in the shade and everyone drinking koolaide.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Cam

[JermajestyDuggar]

I don’t think Josh was ever close with a lot of the younger siblings for a few reasons. 
 

1) he acted like a JB Jr. and was always tagging along with JB. He probably acted more like a mini JB than a brother.

2) He was sent away for awhile when he was a teen and the siblings couldn’t see him. None of the other kids were sent away for long periods like that. 

3) When you have 19 kids, it’s impossible for them to all be close. 

4) He got married and moved out of the house in 2008 when many of the kids were still really young or not even born. How could they feel close with someone who moved out when they were little?

Edited May 30, 2022 by JermajestyDuggar

[noseybutt]

On 5/27/2022 at 11:04 AM, Antimony said:

Almost certainly suggested it. There's a real likely client control issue here. 

There's also the fact that even though Jim Bob is paying, they don't work for him, so if there is a client control it must Josh. Legally, ethically, lawyerily (a word, now), Jim Bob only gets to tell Gelfand what to do in that Josh will do what Jim Bob tells him to do, or won't. 

 

Ethics and reality are often two different things.

I refuse private juvenile criminal cases (and especially private juvenile sex offender cases) because of similar confusion between best interest of the client versus best interest of the person footing the bill. Parents in private juvenile cases render almost complete control with the attorneys even though said control violates ethics and rarely results in the best outcome for the youth.

Yes, the attorneys know better and will deny preferential allegiance. 

 

Edited May 30, 2022 by noseybutt

[noseybutt]

5 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I’m considered very honest by most people who know me best. And it’s not always “nice.” But it’s the truth as I perceive it and do try to be respectful in my wording. My best friend was seeing a guy and I flat out told her when I believed he was being manipulative and emotionally abusive. It wasn’t nice. But most people don’t come to me for a nice opinion. 

Same.

I am all about manners and kindness but anyone who has spent time in conservative religious circles also knows how phrases such as "speak in love" and gentleness and kindness are used to shut people up, especially if you are young or female or not in a position of power. 

Meanwhile Jesus was out there calling names and flipping tables.

I am a kind and empathetic person. But I am not interested in being kind when the situation calls for truth and table flipping.

[Cam]

16 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

1) he acted like a JB Jr. and was always tagging along with JB. He probably acted more like a mini JB than a brother.

 

Most definitely this. Josh saw how JB ruled the family and had all the power. Josh wanted that for himself, too. He saw that within their religion males were the top of the hierarchy and used that to his advantage  from an early age. There’s all those icky tv segments where Josh does the voice overs and where he’s talking to the camera adding commentary to what’s happening. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

27 minutes ago, noseybutt said:

Same.

I am all about manners and kindness but anyone who has spent time in conservative religious circles also knows how phrases such as "speak in love" and gentleness and kindness are used to shut people up, especially if you are young or female or not in a position of power. 

Meanwhile Jesus was out there calling names and flipping tables.

I am a kind and empathetic person. But I am not interested in being kind when the situation calls for truth and table flipping.

I’ve shut my mouth too many times over the years because I’ve been conditioned not to create waves. But as I’ve gotten older, I’m getting better at speaking up. I am very rarely ever rude. I’m too empathetic to be a total asshole to most people. I’m also the person no one bothers to gossip with. Because I don’t care to listen to a game of telephone drama. But people regularly vent to me because even though I’m blunt and honest, I’m also not judgy. I’m not a shamer. But I will listen to some long ass vents! Lol, people like that. 

[Caroline]

5 hours ago, Giraffe said:

and then there's being an asshole and excusing it as honesty. 

Some teenagers are famous for this.  It's hard to explain to them the difference between honesty and being rude.  Sometimes I wonder what they're hearing at home, but I also blame too much SM.  It's just to easy to be mean.

[Bluebirdbluebell]

The Caldwells have no money and lot of kids of their own. I don't know if they could support Joe and Kendra. 

I also have no idea whether the Swansons have money (although I always leaned towards they had no money).  I wonder how Joe and Josiah are supporting their families. 

If John David has an outside source of income, that has yet to be determined. I thought the constable was a volunteer position and if it was paid, he just lost that job.

As for the Duggar brand, I could see it being revised with people like Joe and Kendra at the front. Hopefully the JB and Michelle brand is finished.  

(Editting to add: I don't want to see the Duggar brand revived with anyone, but I think it could happen.)

4 hours ago, Dandruff said:

I suspect JB may still be harboring some hope of eventually reviving the family gravy train, and so doesn't want another son dragged into the ugly.  JB can support Josh because he's his father.  David Waller can, because he's a pastor.  If a brother supports Josh, then people (IMO) might start wondering about that brother.

I don't give JB or David Waller a pass for supporting Josh. I'm hoping eventually some fallout will happen to David Waller.(I think JB is already experiencing fallout.)

Edited May 30, 2022 by Bluebirdbluebell

[Cults-r-us]

9 hours ago, Cam said:

I was definitely conditioned socially to be polite and mannerly altho the phrase “if you can’t say something nice don’t say anything” wasn’t specifically taught to me. I know all the tricks of finding nice things to say in awkward situations, like if someone’s outfit looks hideous find something redeeming to say like, “I love the color”. Or if god awful food is served: “thanks for spending the time to make dinner.” 
 

I dislike when others laugh about and excuse someone who’s blunt and says exactly what’s on their mind the minute they think it by saying, “Oh, she/he’s so funny! They have no filter!” To me, having no filter seems like an excuse to be rude, an excuse for never thinking before you speak. It gets obnoxious and can sometimes come across as bullying. While I can appreciate honesty, I do prefer some refinement. 
 

 

It's not an even playing field as far as having a well-functioning filter. Remember that character Sophia (Estelle Geddy) in Golden Girls had a stroke that made her lose an inhibition to not filter her thoughts? People who are blunt may not be able to appreciate the way they say things is offensive and ineffective. I know someone like this. He can be obnoxious AF, alienates everybody and is completely clueless that the problem is his mouth. Which leads us to insight and self-awareness, stories for another day.

[Giraffe]

42 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

As for the Duggar brand, I could see it being revised with people like Joe and Kendra at the front. Hopefully the JB and Michelle brand is finished. 

At this point there are no Duggars I want to see platformed again even if they deconvert.

[Cam]

Imo, the Duggar brand is done. 
 

I don’t know a lot about the Swansons, but I saw a video of Lauren and Siah’s baby reveal on the lawn of a rather very nice house. I think there was even a little glimpse of the inside at a tea party there. I could be wrong but I thought it was Lauren’s parents’ home. If it is their house, it’s a big contrast to the trailer like looking house the Caldwells lived in at one time. A quick google shows Lauren’s dad is the president of a Lawn and Design company as well as Swanson Construction. I can’t say how updated that is or how lucrative.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Cam

[socalrules]

I agree the Duggar brand is over and I don’t even see any of the kids being able to revive it with their own families. We at FJ are fascinated by the Duggar crazy because we have invested years in following the train wreck but few people outside of our group actually care about the Duggars. The only thing most people know about them of that one of the kids is going to prison for his horrible actions. The Duggars found their niche at a time where reality TV was in its infancy and it was interesting to watch people with a million kids live completely differently than the majority of us. It was great escapism but now we know what we were watching was a complete lie and that abuse/cruelty was covered up all for the sake of making money. There is no brand to continue because it was all a lie.
 

There is nothing the Duggar kids have to offer a TV show either. None of them are particularly interesting or witty or doing anything that would justify a TV show. Few would identify with them even as married adults as they still live lives so vastly different than most people but now it just comes off as kind of sad. At some point, even their Instagram or twitter endorsements will dry up. They hold abhorrent views that major products or businesses will not want to be associated with for fear of backlash. I would like to see where they are in 5 years when the Duggar name is just a distant memory. 

[Bethy]

On 5/29/2022 at 5:14 PM, hoipolloi said:

Yes, and the movie Fargo illustrates some of them! One of my all time favorite movies.

 

Re: Annaʻs new LLCs. Iʻd guess people are busily moving assets to Annaʻs name so they canʻt be tapped to pay the $50K fine or other expenses. I doubt she actually runs any of these things.

I don't understand how anybody else could be moving stuff INTO Anna's name in hopes of not being called upon to pay fines or other expenses. I'd think if anybody could be called on to pay Josh's fines, it would be Anna herself.  And worse things may be coming for her.

Some years back there was a semi-local teacher who was arrested for having sex with a student. He ultimately pled guilty and served time, now he's a registered sex offender, the whole nine. Meanwhile the student in question sued him in civil court and got a settlement of like eight million dollars. It would be an impossible sum for this teacher to have paid even if he continued to have teacher income and worked a full career - which, obviously, he cannot do from the sex offender registry. I don't know how all of this works. Does this ex-teacher now have a lien on all of his paychecks for life? If his wife had stayed with him (I think I heard the marriage ended) then would she have been on the hook for his multi-million-dollar debt? To bring it back to the case at hand, what if it becomes possible for an identifiable victim from the CSAM Josh downloaded to sue - will Anna be on the hook to pay since she stayed married to him?

All this to say...from where I sit it looks like putting anything financial in Anna's name right now is a big risk.