(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 48: "Happy New Year to You [,Josh]... In Jail!"

[Mama Mia]

5 hours ago, patsymae said:

Well, JD allowed his child to be in an effing parade with Jboob and Jchelle, when the writing on the wall was pretty clear, so he doesn't seem to have a problem. And Blessa wouldn't want to be rude. And whichever idiot it was who gave the thumbs up sign doesn't seem to have a problem either. The Ms will be under the tutelege of Anna, the Duggar parents and the Kellers who toe the line, so who knows what they will be thinking.
Legal eagles chime in here--if he completes his sentence, is it then just a clean slate, that he has the same rights as everyone else since he has paid his debt to society? If they let him out early, for good behavior or whatever, can they impose restrictions until his original sentence has run out?

EDITED because I looked up the Rahway State Prison (has new name now) sex offender program and found something completely different than what I was looking for--many sex offenders are remanded for "treatment" AFTER they serve their sentences because the courts or psychiatrists or whoever consider them a danger to society--a bunch of class action suits going on as they claim they are just  being warehoused in inhumane and unconstitutional conditions. Apparently this is policy in 20 states as well as the federal system. So it looks like (and lawyers correct me if I'm wrong), he could complete his sentence and THEN be sent for "treatment" and only gets to get out at someone's discretion.

https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2020/aug/1/commitment-new-jerseys-special-treatment-unit-potential-death-sentence/

I think it’s a pretty big leap from letting your kid be on a parade float with grandpa and grandma — and letting your child hang out alone with their convicted pedo uncle.

My take is that the siblings are disgusted, but not exactly shocked, by Josh. A few probably have some mixed emotions of affection for him — but it doesn’t seem like they are very strong. No one was seen - at ANY point - wailing at the injustice towards Josh.  I’d imagine when he’s released he’ll be the creepy uncle that most of the adult siblings will avoid as much as possible - but if he’s at a wedding or something they will be civil - much like at the trial itself. I can’t see ANY of them asking Uncle Josh to babysit their little kid. 

But they aren’t going to see their parents the same way. The might be angry (some of them) but I don’t think any except Jill/Derrick are going to completely shut them out. And I doubt Jill and Michelle will stay estranged. 

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

6 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

But they aren’t going to see their parents the same way. The might be angry (some of them) but I don’t think any except Jill/Derrick are going to completely shut them out. And I doubt Jill and Michelle will stay estranged. 

The floodgates are now open. In a year or so the Prime documentary finally exposing to the world what the Duggars really are will be streaming. Expect a tell-all or two to piggy back. More discussion about them, more scrutiny over patriarchy, child abuse, and Quiverfull.  I really thought this would happen back in 2015, but Jim Bob somehow pulled off another show instead. Josh's conviction has ended everything. Jim Bob is toothless. He can continue to enrich Travis Story by paying him to sue anyone who breathes a bad word about him, but nothing will work. It's over.

I think the family will eventually be splintered into smithereens. It happens with all reality show families. Sooner or later.

[nokidsmom]

25 minutes ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

I really thought this would happen back in 2015, but Jim Bob somehow pulled off another show instead.

I thought so too.  That the molestations would definitely end things and for a while it looked that way.   I imagine there was a lot of panic over the loss of income er, the family dog and pony show, so not surprised that he tried to salvage it and managed to succeed.  But I always felt with the molestation and AM scandals in quick succession, that Josh was very likely to screw up again and if he did, it would mark the end.  And he blew up spectacularly, in spite of being (presumably) on a short leash.

32 minutes ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

I think the family will eventually be splintered into smithereens. It happens with all reality show families. Sooner or later.

The truth is out now and one reason why JB in his words "wasn't going to allow it" might be that he was scared sh*tless over some of his kids sitting there and learning the full truth of what happened.  He might still control the narrative with some kids but not all of them by now and he knows it.  Some family splintering has already happened with Jill, Jinger seems to keep some distance.  One son has moved to Texas and seems to be more tied to his in-law family (putting aside the leg humpery nature of that relationship) than his family of origin.  It's only a matter of time that we see more. 

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

54 minutes ago, nokidsmom said:

The truth is out now and one reason why JB in his words "wasn't going to allow it" might be that he was scared sh*tless over some of his kids sitting there and learning the full truth of what happened.  He might still control the narrative with some kids but not all of them by now and he knows it.  Some family splintering has already happened with Jill, Jinger seems to keep some distance.  One son has moved to Texas and seems to be more tied to his in-law family (putting aside the leg humpery nature of that relationship) than his family of origin.  It's only a matter of time that we see more. 

Agree. Some of the sons will stick around as long as JB has the money to support them and their toys. But the daughters?  Try to imagine Josie 5 years from now at 17/18. I can't! I only know she'll almost certainly be nothing like any of her older sisters. At that point, her parents probably will have lost complete control of the younger set.

[nokidsmom]

1 minute ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

Try to imagine Josie 5 years from now at 17/18. I can't! I only know she'll almost certainly be nothing like any of her older sisters. At that point, her parents probably will have lost complete control of the younger set.

Agree.  I recently realized that Josie is nearing teenage years (somehow I keep thinking of her as a little kid) and yeah, she will be 18 in just a few years.   Being part of the younger group, I thought about how things will go with her.  Something tells me that JB and J'chelle thought Jill was no longer towing the line was bad enough just wait until Josie is older.

[SassyPants]

IMO, we can not apply the relationship  principals that exist in average sized families to the Duggars. First, size alone changes dynamics, but even more so, JB’s tactics really influenced those sibling and parental attachments. I don’t see any of the older kids having very strong bonds. Maybe at one time JD and Jana were close, but their lives are very different now. The same could be said for Jessa and Jinger. I think the bonds that were tight back in the day, were more about convenience, getting work done, and boredom more than any strong connection. I understand that there might be a docuseries about the Duggars and other reality TV families. I hope this is true and that the destruction is highlighted.

I know people like to reference and compare large, Catholic families of bygone years to families like the Duggars. Well, beyond the Dionne Quintuplets, l don’t know of any families that sold their kids’ lives to support the family, and the Dionnes situation wasn’t exactly stellar either.

[Expectopatronus]

Jenni and Jordyn are my bets for completely going their own way. Those girls have been so invisible to their parents that I would be stunned if they have any loyalty to the family or IBLP. I would love to see Jenni in 10 years time graduating with her degree in veterinary sciences and achieving the dream she has listed. 

[SassyPants]

JGM didn’t even get the full six months of mommy care. MD was quickly pregnant and that pregnancy was problematic. I’d say Jordyn was lucky if she had 3 months of MD’s time. And from that point on, Josie commanded all of her parents’ attention. I’m glad that Mack and Jordyn have a tight bond (if what is reported is true).

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, SassyPants said:

IMO, we can not apply the relationship  principals that exist in average sized families to the Duggars. First, size alone changes dynamics, but even more so, JB’s tactics really influenced those sibling and parental attachments. I don’t see any of the older kids having very strong bonds. Maybe at one time JD and Jana were close, but their lives are very different now. The same could be said for Jessa and Jinger. I think the bonds that were tight back in the day, were more about convenience, getting work done, and boredom more than any strong connection. I understand that there might be a docuseries about the Duggars and other reality TV families. I hope this is true and that the destruction is highlighted.

I know people like to reference and compare large, Catholic families of bygone years to families like the Duggars. Well, beyond the Dionne Quintuplets, l don’t know of any families that sold their kids’ lives to support the family, and the Dionnes situation wasn’t exactly stellar either.

Just to be fair here: it wasn’t the Dionne parents who “sold their kids’ lives.” It was the Canadian government who took the kids away and turned them into a national asset. (Tourists came to see the kids.) The business about the father trying to make money off the kids was greatly exaggerated in part to justify keeping the kids outside the parents’ custody. 

The Dionnes, who were French Canadian, already had a bunch of kids and were relatively poor.  The father did make deals about the kids’ pictures and so forth, but he was legitimately worried he wouldn’t be able to support the kids otherwise.  The real exploitation of the kids was by the government that literally created a special house to raise the kids in, had a viewing gallery (charged admission) etc.  The parents were not allowed to raise the girls until they were around 8 or 9 years old.   It messed up family dynamics and the kids did not have good lives.

[Cam]

For anyone looking to understand the whole scope of the Dionne quintuplets story, there is an excellent book on the topic, “The Miracle & Tragedy of the Dionne Quintuplets” by Sarah Miller, published in 2019. It is an excellent and fascinating read.

 

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, Cam said:

For anyone looking to understand the whole scope of the Dionne quintuplets story, there is an excellent book on the topic, “The Miracle & Tragedy of the Dionne Quintuplets” by Sarah Miller, published in 2019. It is an excellent and fascinating read.

 

I haven’t read that one, but I read The Dionne Years which was pretty fascinating.  The parents did make money off the girls (and in later years three of them claimed they had been abused by their father) but the original exploitation was carried out by the Ontario government.  

[karenb4729]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGMtvc2gj-U

Interesting video on what Josh is most likely experiencing in jail.

[Hazelbunny]

Loving the discussion on ASL! Very interesting. 

Personal experience with a little deaf boy if you are interested: 

I did a work experience thing in school (Grade 11  in Germany) in a daycare for 1 - 3 year olds. On my first day I was asked to play with a two year old boy who couldn't hear. I was very nervous at first as me not being able to see (legally blind) and him not being able to hear seemed like a bad combination. It worked out brilliantly though!!! That litttle boy figured out within minutes that I couldn't see well and so him pointing to things he wanted wouldn*t work. So he just led me by the hand to the shelf, tugged on my trousers to be picked up and took the book from the shelf himsef and then held the book up really close to my face so I could see it. In the 4 weeks I was there we developed our own unique form of communication and I took over most of his care. It was amazing and I have very fond memories of that time.  

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

1 hour ago, karenb4729 said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGMtvc2gj-U

Interesting video on what Josh is most likely experiencing in jail.

I smiled at "milk flavored water".  Hope that doesn't mean I'm some kind of sadist.

[karenb4729]

9 minutes ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

I smiled at "milk flavored water".  Hope that doesn't mean I'm some kind of sadist.

I smiled at the fact that the other prisoners can talk to him through the closed door.  I can only imagine the things they are saying to him.  At this point he is probably happy to be behind a locked door.  

One thing is for sure, Josh will not be the same person when he gets out.  You can't have that kind of experience and have it not change you, good or bad.  

[church_of_dog]

3 hours ago, Cam said:

For anyone looking to understand the whole scope of the Dionne quintuplets story, there is an excellent book on the topic, “The Miracle & Tragedy of the Dionne Quintuplets” by Sarah Miller, published in 2019. It is an excellent and fascinating read.

 

Thank you -- I just borrowed this audiobook on Overdrive.  I'm working my way through lots of 1930s history at the moment so this will fit right in.

[Father Son Holy Goat]

6 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

Just to be fair here: it wasn’t the Dionne parents who “sold their kids’ lives.” It was the Canadian government who took the kids away and turned them into a national asset. (Tourists came to see the kids.) The business about the father trying to make money off the kids was greatly exaggerated in part to justify keeping the kids outside the parents’ custody. 

The Dionnes, who were French Canadian, already had a bunch of kids and were relatively poor.  The father did make deals about the kids’ pictures and so forth, but he was legitimately worried he wouldn’t be able to support the kids otherwise.  The real exploitation of the kids was by the government that literally created a special house to raise the kids in, had a viewing gallery (charged admission) etc.  The parents were not allowed to raise the girls until they were around 8 or 9 years old.   It messed up family dynamics and the kids did not have good lives.

The father also sexually abused the girls when they were teens.

[Father Son Holy Goat]

1 hour ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

I smiled at "milk flavored water".  Hope that doesn't mean I'm some kind of sadist.

You get a kosher beverage, you get a kosher beverage, you all get kosher beverages 

[Jana814]

3 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

I haven’t read that one, but I read The Dionne Years which was pretty fascinating.  The parents did make money off the girls (and in later years three of them claimed they had been abused by their father) but the original exploitation was carried out by the Ontario government.  

The Dionne story is just so sad. I remember watching the movie and hearing more of the back story. 

[Beermeet]

3 hours ago, karenb4729 said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGMtvc2gj-U

Interesting video on what Josh is most likely experiencing in jail.

I love it.  Sorry, not sorry, I'm not someone feeling any kinds of bad for Josh.  I don't think he can be rehabilitated and I don't think we should find out if he can when he gets out.  He is exactly where he should be.  

[JermajestyDuggar]

5 hours ago, Cam said:

For anyone looking to understand the whole scope of the Dionne quintuplets story, there is an excellent book on the topic, “The Miracle & Tragedy of the Dionne Quintuplets” by Sarah Miller, published in 2019. It is an excellent and fascinating read.

 

I remember watching the TV movie about them when I was a kid. I was completely fascinated by the story.

[onekidanddone]

1 hour ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

You get a kosher beverage, you get a kosher beverage, you all get kosher beverages 

I thought the emphasis on ‘kosher’ beverage was odd.  The only thing I could think of was Manischewitz. Believe me when I tell you serving that is considered cruel and unusual punishment. 

[thoughtful]

55 minutes ago, onekidanddone said:

I thought the emphasis on ‘kosher’ beverage was odd. 

Really - are there any unkosher beverages, other than Clamato? Well, OK, maybe there are - but they're not exactly common beverages.

If someone doesn't want milk with a meat meal, that's one thing. But the milk itself is not traife (unkosher).

I did look it up, and I guess there are some people who care about things being certified as kosher. I sit corrected.

https://www.kashrut.com/consumer/soda/

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

The father also sexually abused the girls when they were teens.

Yes. Apparently, only the quints were molested.  One of the non-quint sisters was very insistent that this was not the sort of thing their father would do.

I have run into a theory that watching a child grow up from infancy is a deterrent to sexual feelings for that child as s/he hits puberty.   (Obviously this does not apply in cases where adults are attracted to prepubescent children.)  I don’t remember the whole thing, but one aspect of it is that if children have run around in diapers together and wrestled as very little kids, they are less likely to see each other as sex objects when they grow up.  It is a problem with arranged marriages where the kids grow up together from infancy (before age 7).

It appears also that sibling incest or molestation may be less likely when the siblings shared a nursery and/or otherwise grew in an environment that did not segregate the sexes when young.  Lastly, fathers who were able to see their daughters grow up were less likely to be sexually attracted to them.  I honestly don’t know how sound this theory is or what research (if any) there is to support it, but it sort of makes sense.  (I first heard it in an anthropology class back in the 1970s, but more recently I have  run into references to the problem with arranging marriages between young people who were playmates as infants.)  It has crossed my mind that one possible reason Josh did not molest Jana is that because they were closer in age and at some crucial period he developed a “disinterest” in her.

Back to the Dionnes, I think it is very possible that their father didn’t feel about them as “daughters” because they were taken away when they were 4 months old and return to the family when they are close to puberty.  Obviously, this is no excuse for molesting the girls, but it may be an explanation of why he molested them and not the other daughters.  

We know also that M Dionne felt emasculated by the way the authorities took away the children and portrayed him as some kind of bumbling, ignorant peasant who wanted to “cash in” on the quints and couldn’t possibly be entrusted with their care.  In a twisted way, those feelings may have influenced how he treated these daughters that didn’t feel like daughters.🤷‍♀️

This is all speculation, and I don’t think this theory would explain everything about the problems the Dionne’s faced with their family.  However, since it was the government that initially turned the quints into commodities, I want to blame the government for setting the stage for their bad treatment at the hands of their parents.  And this theory fits right in. 

 

[So-Virgin-It-Hurts]

Regarding Josh being strip-searched each time he leaves or returns to the pod, including anal inspection:  You know you have a crappy career trajectory when it's your job to check Josh Duggar's A-hole coming and going.