(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 48: "Happy New Year to You [,Josh]... In Jail!"

[HerNameIsBuffy]

'Tis the season for paraphrased quotes from "It's a Wonderful Life."  When they get to the part where Harry introduces his new wife I wonder if Madonna is a time traveler.  

 

Continued from here...

 

[sleepygirl1]

I was going to be so upset if this thread title wasn’t used. Brava brava!

[HerNameIsBuffy]

13 minutes ago, sleepygirl1 said:

I was going to be so upset if this thread title wasn’t used. Brava brava!

Really?  Was this discussed before?  If I have some kind of prescient sense when it comes to FJ posts I haven't read someone call Zac Baggins to get me tested!

[nokidsmom]

Quoting @imokit from the previous thread:

Quote

Throughout the trial I kept waiting for anyone to say that officially.  Even JB and M didn't publicly say he was framed or innocent. I thought that was the most glaring bit about the whole thing.  His parents proclaimed support and love for him, but never once said he was innocent.  Nor did any of his siblings.

I pretty much expected to hear at least one proclamation of innocence at some point, especially from his parents.  That they didn't, I agree, that was glaring.   And out of 19 kids, not one of them said anything either, just one making a dumb "thumbs up" gesture. 

Quote

I can't think of many famous people who get locked up and then have siblings saying he did it and the justice system was right.

I think that while still processing what really happened to them, at the same time they feel vindicated that what he did was finally acknowledged and believed.  And after having to live with their abuser for years, might be relieved that he's in a place where he won't do more harm.

[Becky]

This title is worth coming out of lurkdom for!!  Love it!

[sleepygirl1]

16 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Really?  Was this discussed before?  If I have some kind of prescient sense when it comes to FJ posts I haven't read someone call Zac Baggins to get me tested!

No I don’t think it was discussed specifically, but other people had mentioned a wonderful life and the thought had crossed my mind itself. You know what they say great minds think a like! Plus the Josh thread moves so fast that I figured we would probably get to use it in the next couple weeks.

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

Josh is probably in some sort of living hell right now. Jail is bad enough and he'd be right to be terrified if he were out in general given his circumstances, but I can't even imagine what its like for a barely literate blowhard like Josh to be in solitary. I don't remember which streaming service I saw it on, but did anyone else see that documentary about the prisoners in solitary in the Maine state penitentiary? Lordy. I totally get that some people can't be near others but that is torture. 

He'll probably do much better in Federal prison, but I'm not so sure he's going to be in a nice, neat, separate unit of CS offenders either. It's really going to depend on where he lands. From what I've read a lot of these guys either request solitary so they aren't hurt, or they self-segregate with others like themselves, which may afford some level of protection. But they are constantly verbally harassed at a minimum, and once prisoners find out Josh was on television, it may be even worse for him. If I were Josh, I'd forget about family visits and request a prison where people are far less likely to know anything about him.  Vermont?  Alaska?  New York? I don't know. Maybe the Duggars can find a pilot to fly Anna to visits.

Boy done eff'd up for sure.

[nokidsmom]

10 minutes ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

Boy done eff'd up for sure.

He's completely blown up his life.    Now, after he lost his job at the FRC, plus caused his family's cash cow to go away, albeit temporarily, plus returning the NWA in considerable reduced circumstances, one would think he would have taken it as a big warning shot and cleaned up his life.   But he didn't, certainly he has some issues that prevented this, but still he is really at a point where there's no coming back.  Even when he gets out of prison in whatever years, what is he going to do?  His kids may be completely grown by then and not know him.  Who will hire him?  Will his wife stick around? Or if she does, it's in name only and there's no way they will resume their previous life?  Will his parents, who supported him in the last several years, even be around?  Will any siblings assist in their parents' place?

For someone who was the Golden Boy who was going to take the world by storm with his political "career" or "law degree" or just being the Super Duper Godly Man that everyone would listen to, he has done everything to ensure that none of it would happen and he would be worse off than before.  And he has taken down his family with him. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

33 minutes ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

If I were Josh, I'd forget about family visits and request a prison where people are far less likely to know anything about him. 

Do they get to request anything?  That's f'ed up if true.  This isn't college, if he wanted a voice in where he lived he could have made different life choices.  

34 minutes ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

He'll probably do much better in Federal prison, but I'm not so sure he's going to be in a nice, neat, separate unit of CS offenders either.

I read somewhere in looking up info on federal prisons that sometimes they don't get transferred to the SO unit until 2-3 years before release so they can be in programs and such before getting out.  I doubt there is effective treatment for people like him, but if the government does it's odd they'd put it in place so late in the sentence.  

19 minutes ago, nokidsmom said:

He's completely blown up his life.    Now, after he lost his job at the FRC, plus caused his family's cash cow to go away, albeit temporarily, plus returning the NWA in considerable reduced circumstances, one would think he would have taken it as a big warning shot and cleaned up his life.   But he didn't, certainly he has some issues that prevented this, but still he is really at a point where there's no coming back.  Even when he gets out of prison in whatever years, what is he going to do?  His kids may be completely grown by then and not know him.  Who will hire him?  Will his wife stick around? Or if she does, it's in name only and there's no way they will resume their previous life?  Will his parents, who supported him in the last several years, even be around?  Will any siblings assist in their parents' place?

For someone who was the Golden Boy who was going to take the world by storm with his political "career" or "law degree" or just being the Super Duper Godly Man that everyone would listen to, he has done everything to ensure that none of it would happen and he would be worse off than before.  And he has taken down his family with him. 

What I'm most curious about is will he be allowed to live with his own minor children when Anna takes him back.

While I am hoping for the max, conventional wisdom is saying he's probably looking at around 8-12 years so there will definitely be at least 3 kids home under 18.  

[Alisamer]

So, let's say he gets 10 years. He and Anna will be 43, right? Jim Bob will be 66. Madyson will be 10. All his siblings, even Josie, will be adults, as will his oldest kids. He'll have missed several family weddings, and have quite a few nieces and nephews he's never met. 

If he gets 20? He and Anna will be 53. Jim Bob will be 76. Madyson will be 20. All the nieces and nephews he's actually met will be adults, as will all his own kids. He'll have missed most or all of his OWN kids weddings, along with a large number of family weddings. Winter will no longer exist, parts of the planet will be either flooded or becoming desert hellscapes... 

Ok, maybe not that last bit. He might need to get 30+ years for that.

But yeah I think the more time he gets, the better. Even 12 years would be better than 8. Eight years and Madyson's still a child. 12 years and she's a pre-teen.

If I was the judge, I'd look at Madyson's age at the time he's likely to be released, and make sure she's older than any of the children in the CSA materials he was caught with. That seems to be both sensible and safer, to me.

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

27 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

What I'm most curious about is will he be allowed to live with his own minor children when Anna takes him back.

I can't speak to his specific case, but a neighbor of my sister's went away for something similar.  He had several kids and moved right back in with the family after spending several years in prison. My sister was freaked out, although her kids are a little older and it was material only. I think his youngest was 9 or 10 when he was released. I know he's on the offender list and I'm guessing he's supervised, but he is living with his minor kids for sure. And the wife has had stage 4 cancer for a long time, just to make everything extra messy.  

[SPHASH]

Smuggar has been in jail two weeks now.  Wonder how's he's doing.

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

48 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

So, let's say he gets 10 years. He and Anna will be 43, right? Jim Bob will be 66. Madyson will be 10. All his siblings, even Josie, will be adults, as will his oldest kids. He'll have missed several family weddings, and have quite a few nieces and nephews he's never met. 

If he gets 20? He and Anna will be 53. Jim Bob will be 76. Madyson will be 20. All the nieces and nephews he's actually met will be adults, as will all his own kids. He'll have missed most or all of his OWN kids weddings, along with a large number of family weddings. Winter will no longer exist, parts of the planet will be either flooded or becoming desert hellscapes... 

Ok, maybe not that last bit. He might need to get 30+ years for that.

But yeah I think the more time he gets, the better. Even 12 years would be better than 8. Eight years and Madyson's still a child. 12 years and she's a pre-teen.

If I was the judge, I'd look at Madyson's age at the time he's likely to be released, and make sure she's older than any of the children in the CSA materials he was caught with. That seems to be both sensible and safer, to me.

Emily Baker - who knows stuff - says she sees  very little chance he sees 20 years, which is the max as any sentences would run concurrently.  She thinks 8 - 10, although it could be more or less.  He'll also likely only do about 85% of any sentence. I wonder if the judge can deviate from how he'd normally sentence someone in Josh's shoes because Josh has kids or was known to molest girls in the past. Lots of these guys have kids, so I don't think he will because of that, but maybe the molestations can be part of his consideration?

 

[karenb4729]

47 minutes ago, SPHASH said:

Smuggar has been in jail two weeks now.  Wonder how's he's doing.

My guess is he is depressed.  The realization of his situation would now starting to sink in.  Well at least that's how a normal person would think.  

 

[Alisamer]

14 minutes ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

Emily Baker - who knows stuff - says she sees  very little chance he sees 20 years, which is the max as any sentences would run concurrently.  She thinks 8 - 10, although it could be more or less.  He'll also likely only do about 85% of any sentence. I wonder if the judge can deviate from how he'd normally sentence someone in Josh's shoes because Josh has kids or was known to molest girls in the past. Lots of these guys have kids, so I don't think he will because of that, but maybe the molestations can be part of his consideration?

 

Yeah I doubt he'll get 20. I'm just hoping it's closer to 10 than to 8. The older his kids are when he gets out, the better. 

[Expectopatronus]

I hope that he is getting mental health support. Both so that he can heal from whatever trauma has caused him to want to view children being tortured and because his siblings, children, wife etc do not need to have to cope with a suicide. 
Maybe because I work as a therapist (newly minted, just graduated with my Masters this past spring) and maybe because I’m overly optimistic, I believe that with the right motivation, support, resources and perhaps meds, all people can change and become productive citizens. I am repulsed by what he did but I don’t know Josh at all so I don’t know what lead to it. I’m not sure I’m making sense so I’ll shut up 😂

[HerNameIsBuffy]

3 minutes ago, Expectopatronus said:

I hope that he is getting mental health support. Both so that he can heal from whatever trauma has caused him to want to view children being tortured and because his siblings, children, wife etc do not need to have to cope with a suicide. 
Maybe because I work as a therapist (newly minted, just graduated with my Masters this past spring) and maybe because I’m overly optimistic, I believe that with the right motivation, support, resources and perhaps meds, all people can change and become productive citizens. I am repulsed by what he did but I don’t know Josh at all so I don’t know what lead to it. I’m not sure I’m making sense so I’ll shut up 😂

I believe people can change, I don't believe people like Josh can change.

It was posted somewhere that as part of the pre-sentencing investigation they'll do a psycho-sexual examination which is to aid the state in determining the type of treatment he may need.  

 

[imokit]

Even if Josh only does 8 years, there's a good chance he'll miss Mack's future wedding and the birth of his first grandchild (and possibly other grandchildren).

[EmCatlyn]

48 minutes ago, Expectopatronus said:

I hope that he is getting mental health support. Both so that he can heal from whatever trauma has caused him to want to view children being tortured and because his siblings, children, wife etc do not need to have to cope with a suicide. 
Maybe because I work as a therapist (newly minted, just graduated with my Masters this past spring) and maybe because I’m overly optimistic, I believe that with the right motivation, support, resources and perhaps meds, all people can change and become productive citizens. I am repulsed by what he did but I don’t know Josh at all so I don’t know what lead to it. I’m not sure I’m making sense so I’ll shut up 😂

There is always hope that people will change their actions, but it is hard unless they can also change the way they look at things. We don’t really know what makes Josh tick.  We throw around labels like psychopath and pedophile and sadist but we don’t really know.  If he happened to luck out and get a good therapist just when he hits the moment when he is ready to consider his need to change, he might (just maybe) get help and come out a better person.  However, it is pretty unlikely given the prison system.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

8 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

There is always hope that people will change their actions, but it is hard unless they can also change the way they look at things. We don’t really know what makes Josh tick.  We throw around labels like psychopath and pedophile and sadist but we don’t really know.  If he happened to luck out and get a good therapist just when he hits the moment when he is ready to consider his need to change, he might (just maybe) get help and come out a better person.  However, it is pretty unlikely given the prison system.

Psychopath may be dubious due to the differing definitions and that it's now Anti-Social Personality Disorder, but of course we know he lacks empathy by his actions.

We also know he's a pedophile by his actions.  His CSAM crimes weren't of opportunity, he sought that.  Ditto being a sadist.  He got off sexually on the torture of innocent children, that is sadistic by definition.

I don't need to know what makes him tick to know what he is.

People don't need to know my motivations for choosing a career in IT to know I'm in IT.  My behavior in having a career in the field is enough.  

[libgirl2]

1 hour ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I believe people can change, I don't believe people like Josh can change.

It was posted somewhere that as part of the pre-sentencing investigation they'll do a psycho-sexual examination which is to aid the state in determining the type of treatment he may need.  

 

I don't think he will change at this point. Between his "wiring" and his upbringing, it is too late. I even doubt he will show remorse. As for him committing suicide, I think that would leave the survivors with extreme guilt more so than they might feel now. The best would be for Anna to take the kids and leave, but that will never, ever happen. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

As for him committing suicide, I think that would leave the survivors with extreme guilt more so than they might feel now.

No way to know.  They could fanwank it that he did it out of remorse and to make sure he couldn't hurt anyone again.  That would let those who needed it a hero narrative.  

What I wish is for all of the survivors, his children, and frankly all of his siblings to get the therapy they need to process what's happened and whatever happens going forward.  I know that's no panacea, but their emotional and mental health shouldn't be tied to his actions anymore.  I know that's easier said than done with kids, and may well not be possible entirely, but they need to give them tools to handle all of this in the healthiest way possible.

I also know that for most of them this is nothing but a pipe dream.  

[EmCatlyn]

Re: What family stuff Josh will miss out on while he is in prison—

I doubt he cares about missing family weddings and births.  He may regret not being around for some of his kids’ milestones,  but beyond his own kids he probably doesn’t have that much interest.

Re: Josh bringing his family down with him —

His parents deserve it, and maybe he is doing his siblings a favor by making them take responsibility for their own lives when the parents can no longer finance/support everything.

The ones I truly pity are the M-kids.  I hope Anna will realize that they need her to be stable and reliable and that her choices from now on should put them first—but I fear she won’t.

[livinginthelight]

People who WANT to change can change. Some types of people don't think anything's really wrong with themselves. They will turn on the tears and say the right words when caught but what they're really upset about is that they were caught. As a psychologist I have hope for each and every person who voluntarily walks through my door, and I've seen amazing changes. But there has to be enough internal humanity to get them to seek help in the first place. I'm just not seeing it with Josh.

 

[Dandruff]

5 hours ago, nokidsmom said:

I pretty much expected to hear at least one proclamation of innocence at some point, especially from his parents.  That they didn't, I agree, that was glaring.   And out of 19 kids, not one of them said anything either, just one making a dumb "thumbs up" gesture.

I think the best they could do was say they want the truth to come to light, which is vague and less likely to result in more bad pr.  Proclaiming his innocence would be sticking their necks out.  It would also be pointless if they're pretty sure that the truth is in the evidence and the evidence overwhelmingly suggests that he's not innocent.

OTOH, I find it interesting that JB was willing to piss off a judge and smear his own credibility in order to advocate for Josh.  It wasn't a public statement, but it certainly wasn't said in private either.  I'd love to know his motivation.

52 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

The best would be for Anna to take the kids and leave, but that will never, ever happen. 

I'm hoping she and the kids are welcomed for long visits in Texas and possibly Florida.  I could see Pecan's church potentially wanting to chip in for a place to stay and other resources for them, with JB picking up the slack.  If things went well, Anna might realize that both she and the kids are able to build their lives without Josh and are actually happier than before.  She would then be in a better position to decide what to do when he gets out.