(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 48: "Happy New Year to You [,Josh]... In Jail!"

[ILoveJellybeans]

Yeah, the current system doesnt work. Take non violent people who have done things like stolen or taken drugs, lock them up in an insititution where you have to be in constant survival mode, with gang members and murderers for company, then then theyre let out, they have no job prospects as nobody wants to hire someone who has been to jail and have been locked away for years and are used to prison...and then wonder why they turn back to crime. All its doing is making repeat offenders.

Instead we should be focussing on solving the problems that lead to people going to jail in the first place. Do something about CEOs who are millionaires but their employees arent paid a living wage. Invest in schools and activities for kids, as kids who feel they belong somewhere, have a future and are not bored are less likely to vandalise property or join a gang (and also make sure their parents are paid a living wage so they can spend time with their kids instead of working three jobs all day to put food on the table). Treat drug addiction as a health issue rather than a crime. Make healthcare affordable and accessible.. Help the homeless instead of using hostile architecture to keep them out of sight. Teach consent and proper sex ed, fight for gender equality, get rid of rape culture. Sort out issues like racism, homophobia, sexism etc. If people are happier and more equal, then there will be less crime.

There will always be crime though, and Im not saying abolish prisons entirely. as there are genuinely dangerous people who need to be off the streets, but it should be kept to violent offenders who are a danger to society, like murderers, rapists, pedophiles etc. The prison system should also focus on trying to rehabilitiate these people and reduce their risk to society.

[Alisamer]

33 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

We need prison reform badly.  For one, I don't think anyone who isn't violent and a threat to society should be there.  Period.  We lost sight there, imo.  

I agree except I'd still want there to be prison for the "white collar" criminals. The Trumps of the world. In fact I'd much rather have them be in prison than the majority of people who are in there now for drug offenses. 

I think generally I'd like to see prison be for people who commit crimes that do harm to other people or society. Some dude having some weed in his pocket is not hurting anyone else. Stealing from a store raises prices, inciting insurrection harms the entire country, tax cheats hurt society, and of course any sort of violence harms others, so I think deserve prison time. 

Drug offenses I think should be judged based on harm to others. Possession, public impairment, etc? That needs rehab and therapy IMO. Small time dealing of drugs? Maybe fines and required community service plus assistance in finding legal, appropriate work. Save the prisons for the big deals, IMO. 

[Beermeet]

This whole mess:

https://corpaccountabilitylab.org/calblog/2020/8/5/private-companies-producing-with-us-prison-labor-in-2020-prison-labor-in-the-us-part-ii

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Pa Keller's prison ministry was mentioned on Reddit so I googled for the name of the book he wrote, the one David and Priscilla went door to door giving to their neighbors a few years back.

Worst reverse trick or treating ever!

But I learned he'd written not one, but two books.  

Breaking the Bondage of Addictions: Uncontrollable Anger, Drug/Alcohol, Irrational Thinking, Sexual Sins Paperback – January 1, 2000

https://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Bondage-Addictions-Uncontrollable-Irrational/dp/B0006RIZY0/ref=pd_lpo_1?pd_rd_i=B0006RIZY0&psc=1

The also in 2000 he and Suzette wrote When Tragedy Hits

https://www.amazon.com/When-Tragedy-Hits-Suzette-Keller/dp/B000F8S5WW

The subtitle is amazing!

"A Book Designed [sic] to help you through your current or next tragedy."

They didn't even proof the book cover for errors! I desperately need to read both of these right now!  I can think of no better way to spend my 4 day weekend than reading these two groundbreaking tomes and recapping to my hearts content.

[Dandruff]

Pa Keller is in a prime position to observe the effects of irrational thinking, sexual sins, and tragedies.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

20 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

Pa Keller is in a prime position to observe the effects of irrational thinking, sexual sins, and tragedies.

True.  Too bad he is not in the position at all to look at them rationally or advise others on how to deal with them.

 

[imokit]

Mac is in Jana's Christmas videos, so she had what looks like a decent Christmas (near the lost girls in all the glimpses of her).  I think Hannie is holding Madyson at one point - you can see the top of a newborn's head.  I couldn't see the other Ms or their grandma or mum.

Here's hoping that the Ms had a Christmas surrounded by people who love and support them.

[Bluebirdbluebell]

I still can't believe Pa Keller wasn't in court at all, particularly for the verdict. If I were Anna, I would have wanted him there. I also may have wanted my mother to be there. Maybe the grandparents were babysitting for Anna, but at least one of the Keller parents could have showed up for her. 

[Beermeet]

1 hour ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

I still can't believe Pa Keller wasn't in court at all, particularly for the verdict. If I were Anna, I would have wanted him there. I also may have wanted my mother to be there. Maybe the grandparents were babysitting for Anna, but at least one of the Keller parents could have showed up for her. 

Yeah, that's really messed up.  But, I guess she is the Duggars now. 

[47of74]

5 hours ago, Alisamer said:

I agree except I'd still want there to be prison for the "white collar" criminals. The Trumps of the world. In fact I'd much rather have them be in prison than the majority of people who are in there now for drug offenses. 

I think generally I'd like to see prison be for people who commit crimes that do harm to other people or society. Some dude having some weed in his pocket is not hurting anyone else. Stealing from a store raises prices, inciting insurrection harms the entire country, tax cheats hurt society, and of course any sort of violence harms others, so I think deserve prison time. 

Drug offenses I think should be judged based on harm to others. Possession, public impairment, etc? That needs rehab and therapy IMO. Small time dealing of drugs? Maybe fines and required community service plus assistance in finding legal, appropriate work. Save the prisons for the big deals, IMO. 

Yeah I largely agree with this.  There are two reforms I'd want to see.  First replace the 13th Amendment with one that absolutely forbids slavery or involuntary servitude without exception and make violations punishable by life imprisonment.  Second is to make the right to vote absolute for every US citizen age 16 or older without exception.  Take away the financial incentive and take away the ability to disenfranchise large numbers of people from the US government.  Which is largely what drives our "justice" system.

Edited December 28, 2021 by 47of74

[Father Son Holy Goat]

7 hours ago, smittykins said:

I’ve always believed that if we need a sex-offender registry, we should also have a domestic-violence registry.

Yes! Could you imagine how easy that would be to look up before a date?

[Inky]

Anna may not have wanted her parents there, to hear what Josh was going to be potentially convicted of. I can understand that. Also, she may have found it easier to keep a lid on her emotions without mom & dad there.

[Melbelle]

On 12/26/2021 at 2:12 PM, Caroline said:

You reminded me of my only hospital stay when my baby was born.  I'm still talking about the rubber pancakes two decades later.  That breakfast was so bad I didn't order another thing for the two days I was there.  My sister brought me a hamburger from McDonald's, and it's pretty sad that that was more appealing than anything on the hospital menu.

Maybe things have improved since then, but I hope I never find out

So I had a little one just a few years ago and the food was amazing! The hospital did a special "congratulations" meal the night of/next night after the birth, where you could choose from filet mignon, roast chicken, salmon, or a vegetarian dish with wonderful sides like roasted brussels sprouts and (real) mashed potatoes, plus a first course of soup or salad, and gourmet desserts. (The meal was for 2 (if you wanted), and for whoever was with you, you and your spouse/partner/support person, didn't matter who.)  I had a million complications (baby was fine, I was a mess) and was in the hospital for 10 days, so the nurses insisted my husband and I have the "fancy" meal quite a few times.  But even the regular food offered was really good.  Lots of variety and well made.  So, at least where I live, things have definitely improved!!   

Edited December 28, 2021 by Melbelle

[Beermeet]

8 hours ago, ILoveJellybeans said:

Yeah, the current system doesnt work. Take non violent people who have done things like stolen or taken drugs, lock them up in an insititution where you have to be in constant survival mode, with gang members and murderers for company, then then theyre let out, they have no job prospects as nobody wants to hire someone who has been to jail and have been locked away for years and are used to prison...and then wonder why they turn back to crime. All its doing is making repeat offenders.

Instead we should be focussing on solving the problems that lead to people going to jail in the first place. Do something about CEOs who are millionaires but their employees arent paid a living wage. Invest in schools and activities for kids, as kids who feel they belong somewhere, have a future and are not bored are less likely to vandalise property or join a gang (and also make sure their parents are paid a living wage so they can spend time with their kids instead of working three jobs all day to put food on the table). Treat drug addiction as a health issue rather than a crime. Make healthcare affordable and accessible.. Help the homeless instead of using hostile architecture to keep them out of sight. Teach consent and proper sex ed, fight for gender equality, get rid of rape culture. Sort out issues like racism, homophobia, sexism etc. If people are happier and more equal, then there will be less crime.

There will always be crime though, and Im not saying abolish prisons entirely. as there are genuinely dangerous people who need to be off the streets, but it should be kept to violent offenders who are a danger to society, like murderers, rapists, pedophiles etc. The prison system should also focus on trying to rehabilitiate these people and reduce their risk to society.

I just re-read this and seriously,  amen. Can you imagine?  I can, in theory easily and it works as seen in other countries.  However,  the system created here is not going to be dismantled easily.  Too much money and power involved.  Basically the same thing that keeps us from "going green" and stop using coal, nuclear and oil for energy.  None of it is for the betterment of society.  

Providing the framework for a healthy society gets rid of plenty of petty crimes.  When people have the chance to work and be able to buy a car, a house, have children, save a little,  a vacation here and there.  That's all the majority of us want. When we work 2 jobs, can barely afford rent nevermind fun, is where society breaks down.  We live in a country of excess, it needs to be attainable to simply live comfortably for the most part.  isn't that what the idea of "minimum wage" was about?  

It's so disappointing,  it seems our government gave up on the American dream.  It's been reduced to "Not Trump". Which is better for sure for many reasons but it's no where near enough to restore our country.  

Sorry, a bit OT there. 

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, 47of74 said:

Yeah I largely agree with this.  There are two reforms I'd want to see.  First replace the 13th Amendment with one that absolutely forbids slavery or involuntary servitude without exception and make violations punishable by life imprisonment.  Second is to make the right to vote absolute for every US citizen age 16 or older without exception.  Take away the financial incentive and take away the ability to disenfranchise large numbers of people from the US government.  Which is largely what drives our "justice" system.

Just curious— what is the rationale for lowering the voting age?  There are good reasons to question whether 16-year-old brains have matured sufficiently to make important life decisions.  We keep raising the “age of consent” for sex, but we should lower the voting age?

I don’t feel strongly enough about this to argue about it, but lowering the voting age doesn’t seem consistent with other trends.  There is also some evidence that the adolescent brain— because it has a combination of “child” and “adult” connections—isn’t the best for making long-term decisions or choices. Indeed, some studies suggest that the brain is not fully “adult” until age 25. 🤷‍♀️

As for the rest, the biggest problem with any changes in the law is always enforcement.  We can forbid “involuntary servitude” (indeed, I thought we already did) but how do we make sure that people aren’t tricked or manipulated into what amounts to involuntary servitude?

We have a lot of examples of people made virtual slaves among the fundies we watch.  In the name of “God,” and salvation, people are coerced and limited in ways that most of us would consider abusive.  It is a big problem.

I don’t pretend to know how to solve the problem of inhumane prisons.  I don’t even know how to stop the problem of abusive families.  I believe strongly that we should stop both— but I don’t think there is a simple, obvious solution. ( If I were running the world, I’d probably try different things in different cases until we found the right solution. )  JMH

[Expectopatronus]

28 minutes ago, Inky said:

Anna may not have wanted her parents there, to hear what Josh was going to be potentially convicted of. I can understand that. Also, she may have found it easier to keep a lid on her emotions without mom & dad there.

Anna has been trained since she was tiny to stuff down all emotions and smile. She would need some major therapy before she would be able to allow herself to lose control. The cult seriously messes people up. 

[AussieKrissy]

Australian state NSW prisons have dietician balanced meals everyday they get a milk, cereal tea coffee ration. Lunch is sandwiches and fruit weekends are hot days like pies and sausage rolls. They get desert three days a week (it used to be everyday) it can be a cake, cookie, hot cross bun for Easter, Anzac biscuit for Anzac Day. Dinner is served like plane food. All precooked snap frozen then reheated. Which does spoil the food somewhat. Some gaols the inmates have access to flat bed toasters all gaols have access to microwaves, some also get air fryers. My Gaol gets regular egg buyups and meat buyups as well as there weekly buyup for all their treats and toiletries. Inmates can work or study to get money have family put in money all other inmates get a flat rate weekly of Gaol money of about 14 bucks maybe. They have to put money on their phone account to make calls that are charged at a flat rate. 
I was in hospital on and off for about 5 weeks. The Gaol food was better than the hospital food. I’m a chubby that pretty much doesn’t turn my nose up at much. So if I can’t eat it, it’s bad. 
I am currently working in community corrections. There is no fees at all to be a parole inmate except a nominal fee to hire your anklet and charger. I know they charge the boys on works release in the Gaol for them I’m not sure about the community. 
I was discussing my readings here about the crap that one fjer went through on parole. I’m so sorry for them. Especially knowing how much easier they would have had it here. 

[SorenaJ]

All these initiatives to prevent people from doing crime cost a lot if money, so people shouldn’t be surprised if extra council money is spent on activities for kids or care for the elderly. They didn’t choose to be kids or be elderly, whereas people who do drugs or drink made a conscious choice to take that filth, so obviously any extra money are going to go to people who didn’t make a conscious choice to be needing money. 

[zee_four]

12 hours ago, Beermeet said:

We need prison reform badly.  For one, I don't think anyone who isn't violent and a threat to society should be there.  Period.  We lost sight there, imo.  We have far too many women incarcerated for nonviolent crimes, they need help and to get back to their families if they have them.  Young men as well, getting a record for drugs leaves them with less options to move forward in life, creating a circle back to jail.  Which, if it's for profit,  makes the legal criminals very happy.  It's not good for the health of our society to do this to people who haven't murdered,  raped, molested,  downloading csam and the actual bad stuff.  Beating women should move to that list as well.  Much longer sentences for rape.  I mean, wtaf?!   

 

AGREED!I know I've shared my story in pieces here but for anyone who isn't familiar with it its a perfect example of the corruption of the system and the targeting of women for non violent drug crimes while ignoring and excusing sexual assault and violent rape by men. 

TW for sexual assault/rape nothing graphic but just in case... also the stuff after the spoiler TW for DV.

Spoiler

I was facing up to 35 years for a first time crime that was really a friend with a lengthy criminal record and history of drug abuse who was hiding out in CO to avoid charges for possession in Cook County IL aka Chicago, splitting a $20 of dope with me (which was like the size of a nickle tops and he got half) I dropped it off and I went home. He later used it and unbeknownst to me like 6 other drugs and died of multiple drug intoxication due to long term drug abuse. There was a new DA who had just been elected where I was and they went after me with gusto sending out a lebgrh press release state wide about me being a major drug kingpin all over the mountains of Central and western CO selling an extremely lethal strain of heroin, based off the fact there was so little in my friends system when he died because he didn't die of a Fing heroin overdose. They insisted in every press release he died of an OD and even the cop under oath when questioned by my lawyer holding the actual coroner's report saying the COD was different the cop said "Well I was told differently" and it was allowed. They never found drugs on me either but claimed they had a "confession".

I spoke with the cops when they came to my work in a different town because 2-3 months earlier I was out at a local bar with friends and next thing I remember was coming to as a guy I don't know is having sex with me, as soon as I came to though he choked me unconscious. I woke up much later in an empty room on the floor surrounded by my torn clothes, I grabbed what I could and stumbled out of the apartment into the parking lot of the large apartment complex I actually grew up in and towards the main road where a friend was driving by and picked me up and insisted on taking me to urgent care. There I found out I had broken ribs and injuries to my head, neck and limbs probably from being hit or kicked. A local cop was called, I dont remember much but one was there and I had to find my own ride to the closest hospital 60+ miles away in a different county over a major mountain pass in December just to go to the closest hospital that had rape kits. Another friend insisted on driving me thank God I had no car, there was no public transport and the cops and urgent care and even local hospital weren't able to help me. 

Luckily the pass was open as it often closes, 2 hours later I got there and still had to wait another like 5-6 hours just for a sexual assault trained nurse to show up from the city 100+ miles away.  Fun. But yeah cops came to my work and asked if I knew why I was there and I said sure what happened in December and they had me talk about it and go over everything detail for hours, I was crying, not on my psych meds and had had to have an abortion the day before, could have been the rapists or my boyfriend it was uncertain but a result of the huge dose of antibiotics they gave me with the sexual assault exam, which they gave even more because if how long it had been. They were a Catholic hospital so no Plan B only a script, the only place that filled it for free was closed when I was finally done and I had to wait another whole night until the pharmacy back home opened and I had to pay $60 to have it filled. 

They I asked if I knew why they were there and I said of course my rape and assault that happened in December and they asked if we could go somewhere private to talk about that. I asked my manager and brought them to the back dining room that was closed until dinner and the cops told me to tell me all about what happened again. I did and they kept leading me on and asking for more and more graphic details, so the cops had me bawling for almost two hours and then out of the blue they bring up my friend who died and I said something like how it was all my fault I feel awful I should have been there for him and then they're like surprise (okay they didn't say that but it was their attitude for sure) that's why we're here you're under arrest for distribution of a schedule 1 (the major felony just under murder that carried a MMS or minimum mandatory of 20-35 years no parole no lowering of the sentence by a judge that's what MMS means) criminally negligent homicide and manslaughter (both lower felonies). "Somehow" everything on the tape they had recording before this went missing and they said everything I claimed everything I said I made up and it never happened.

Later in court they denied my rape ever happened and said I was a liar and the DA said if it really happened and I wasn't making it up I needed to go speak with them (haha yeah right fool me once....) I had the doctor willing to testify, my CBI rape kit paperwork etc. But the judge didn't allow it.

Meanwhile nothing was done about the sexual assault which according to the cop at urgent care was identical to a string of assaults in our rural mountain area in the past few weeks alone. There was also multiple bars where way too many guys knew the bartenders would rookie drinks on request. Most guys didn't use this "service" but never reported the few that did and never told the girls they knew, they said they told the guys who was off limits but usually only if they were there with their girlfriend was it followed through. I was one of the few to have grown up in the area and had worked in multiple restaurants in the area and I had no clue about this until some of the guys tried to get the video from the bar I was at and by the next morning it had been deleted and a bunch of stuff came out. Of course nothing was ever reported, or at least the authorities never created one and the lame excuse of a local paper never reported anything that could make the corporation that ran the ski resorts look bad and make the area look like anything but a perfect winter wonderland, like Disney on skis. :vomit:

Unsuprisingly l was in a string of violent relationships afterwards. My most recent was really bad to the point I miscarried at almost 4 months and got my skull cracked open when I was slammed backwards against the dryer multiple times. Those were just the major injuries. My ex was such a horrific drunk the night after the head thing he called the cops when I wouldnt leave like he would demand regularly at 3 am only to call me a few hours later demanding I come back immediately so I learned to go sit in my car down the road with my dogs whose lives he threatened and wait in the cold until he called.  If I wouldn't he'd drag me out by my hair but he was too drunk that last time so he called 911 convinced I'd be arrested for trespassing and would be dragged to jail because he claimed he never used all my money he took for rent so it was his place. He was arrested instead and the only good cop I ever met stayed with me for hours and finally got me to sign a protection order because he was certain if I didnt I'd be dead by Christmas that year. I miscarried the next day (lying on the concrete in a jail cell for a "mental health hold" after I apparently lost it at the hospital) my ex has a long record of DUIs, assault, DV but the prosecutor dropped almost all his charges except a misdemeanor DV which if he didn't get arrested in 6 months got taken off his record. It was horrible and the prosecutor said I was an emotionally unstable woman who was trying to ruin my exs life. Yeah totally I spent a month in hospital after all that when I had to relearn to walk and a bunch of other stuff, but I made it all up because I'm just a crazy emotional woman trying to ruin a good man, whose lengthy record of violence resulting in only a handful of the most minor slaps on the wrist, was all just a bunch of set ups by other crazy women. The prosecutor was actually worse to me than my ex's defense lawyer it was that bad. I tried to argue for myself in court but I was still having a hard time speaking in full coherent thoughts it was a joke. Like all the men had a good laugh at the crazy girl's attempt to talk.

There are NO MMS or minimum mandatories for any violent crime that I know of. Rape, murder, etc. Domestic violence is its even charged, is often a misdemeanor or sentencing enhancer. Jails are packed with people with non violent drug crimes with MMS so they do early release for those without MMS, the rapists, abusers (though the number of men in prison just for DV is disgustingly small, and usually only happens attached to murder or attempted murder) sexual crimes of all stripes including CSA and CSAM. There are minimum and maximum sentences suggested for most crimes but the difference with an MMS is that the judge is not allowed to  issue a sentence below the MMS no matter the extenuating circumstances. There is also no parole allowed once sentenced. You get the MMS and you stay in jail the entire tike. no time off for good behavior, no compassionate release when you're dying nothing. Its used in both some states but more often federal courts. 

The whole system is broken. Those for profit prison companies lobby for more intense sentencing for non violent drug crimes (never for DV or sexual assault though I wonder why) Thats another reason why women's prison populations are exploding. The vast majority of women in prison have been victims of domestic violence, sexual assault and other types of abuse. It in no way excuses crimes that hurt others like child abuse, assault or murder (unless it's to their abuser and then they should be thrown a damn parade not locked up) but when it comes to drug related "crimes" like possession, small scale distribution (these are often undocumented immigrants with few options for work or who are made to be small time dealers by the groups who brought them to the US) prostitution and other survival "crimes"... 

Once you're in the system its so fing hard to get beyond it. First you're a slave to the insane fees for every level of the system, pretrial testing and monitoring, court and jail charges and post release monitoring and UAs and if you can't pay you're usually sent back to jail for violating the terms of your probation or release or just failure to pay. Having a record makes it impossible in most places to be eligible for public housing and other benefits. Women are especially likely to lose custody of their children because of criminal charges and then have to take classes, many that cost money and be at the mercy of CPS. Sometimes just a conviction can make you lose custody. I knew women who were in jail for prostitution or possession who's kids were adopted (usually by white conservative Christian families) within a few years of their arrest/imprisonment. These were women who would be released in a short time. Meanwhile men like Brett Jr. and Josh maintain full custody and are often awarded visitation at a minimum. CSA and CSAM have much lower sentences than a lot of drug crimes. 

It's so hard to find a job, now adays even the most low level retail job like Walmart often requires background checks. Even if you can find a minimum wage position, its never enough to find housing without assistance that you're no longer eligible for and to pay the outrageous fees almost everyone leaves the system with. 

Its such a sad indictment of our society when sexual assault and sexual abuse are often misdemeanors and even violent rape and manslaughter/criminally negligent homicide have lower sentences and no mandatory minimums so they're more likely to be released early than non violent drug crimes. Then our society treats them all the same or at least like everyone with a felony is a baby murderer... But the reality is the most violent and dangerous dont face the same consequences of non violent drug offenders. It's felonies that result in being ineligible for housing, even private rentals, entire industries of employment including getting beautician licenses in some states, etc. and drug crimes are more likely to be felonies than DV, sexual assault etc.. making it so difficult for people to reenter society they're often forced back into criminal activity for survival and back into the system they go. Just another return on investment and extra profits for the for profit criminal oppression system.

I'm glad that Smuggar was convicted but even with that it'll be an exercise in privilege. I can only hope he gets the maximum recommended sentence but just like how he wasn't remanded pretrial because he was a good Christian family man or some garbage I don't have a ton of hope for the absolute max and the consequences after release that a BIPOC mother whose abuse ex used to run drugs faces, which is likely losing custody of her children, and sometimes even having them be adopted out to non family members before she's given a chance after her release (if she didn't face a charge with an MMs of 20-30 years) but its nice to dream...

[zee_four]

34 minutes ago, SorenaJ said:

All these initiatives to prevent people from doing crime cost a lot if money, so people shouldn’t be surprised if extra council money is spent on activities for kids or care for the elderly. They didn’t choose to be kids or be elderly, whereas people who do drugs or drink made a conscious choice to take that filth, so obviously any extra money are going to go to people who didn’t make a conscious choice to be needing money. 

Beyond your complete lack of empathy you're incredibly naive if you think:

1) Public money is either spent on curbing drug addiction or on programs for children and kupuna (elderly)

2) That addressing substance abuse is incredibly costly and just tossing these losers in prison saves money.

In the US alone studies show that if even 10 to 15% of non violent drug offenders were sent to treatment programs instead if jail , an estimated $48 billion a year could be saved. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2017/04/24/upshot/spend-a-dollar-on-drug-treatment-and-save-more-on-crime-reduction.amp.html

Addiction is a mental illness just like depression and bipolar and I pity anyone in your family who suffers from it with a relative like yourself. The shame and stigma is what prevents so many from getting treatment on top of the ridiculously low number of science/medical based effective and comprehensive treatment facilities that are out there. Women who suffer from substance abuse are most often victims of abuse and other major trauma.

By treating people suffering from substance abuse properly instead of throwing them into jail/prison they can become fully functional members of society and contribute to helping all those needs kids and kupuna because the government sure as hell isn't.  It costs a literal fraction of incarceration and builds a stronger society.

I know I would still be a special needs low income preschool teacher if I'd been given a chance at treatment the closest opiate use disorder treatment centers are 110 miles from where I lived so it wasnt even me not wanting to go. I once even drove down to one of the few that existed 15 years ago with my boyfriend and we tried to be admitted but I was turned away because I was "too young" I was almost 19. My boyfriend had just turned 21 and had his license punched and the paper from the DMV to use as his valid temporary ID and that was why he wasn't admitted. I own my choices and don't blame anyone else but at the same time I own my choices in regards to my Bipolar 1, in that when I was finally diagnosed after almost a decade of misdiagnosed and failures of private psychologists and even juvenile centers I was sent to because of my psychotic mania, I work my butt off to attend treatment, take my meds, etc. I was only able to find an effective drug treatment center after being charged and convicted and having my life ruined at age 23. I was never given a chance. And my story is so so common to addicts, especially to BIPOC women like myself.

Billions and billions are spent annually on the US on the criminal "justice" system and imprisonment. Its not cheap, and these for profit companies know how to milk politicians into paying to build the facilities using public money then allowing them to manage for profit. Even without the disaster of turning the judicial system into a for profit enterprise which guarantees to raise the number of people arrested and convicted and who aren't rehabilitated and stay in and out of the system for life, because that's more profit for these major corporations. There's countless cases across the US where these companies make lawmakers provide a certain number of inmates for their facilities and when they don't they change the laws to incarcerate more people. This includes juvenile facilities. You know those kids those soulless druggie are stealing money from.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/04/28/how-for-profit-prisons-have-become-the-biggest-lobby-no-one-is-talking-about/

https://kidsimprisoned.news21.com/for-profit-juvenile-detention-centers/

Usually a post like yours I would consider to be someone trolling, and not very well either, but I know you're a regular poster who seems to otherwise be rational, caring and conscientious. I really hope you take a chance to stop and educate yourself on this issue before continuing to say things that are more commonly seen coming from fundies. I'd be happy to answer questions if you have any. I work as an addiction counselor now with mostly other Native women and am finishing my MSW to become an LCSW to be able to provide counseling on my own in rural areas without established organizations.  I hope you take this opportunity and I also hope, whether you take the former opportunity or not, that you or one of your loved ones never has to battle addiction,  even though the odds are high at least someone you know has or currently is. 

[SorenaJ]

25 minutes ago, zee_four said:

Beyond your complete lack of empathy you're incredibly naive if you think:

1) Public money is either spent on curbing drug addiction or on programs for children and kupuna (elderly)

2) That addressing substance abuse is incredibly costly and just tossing these losers in prison saves money.

In the US alone studies show that if even 10 to 15% of non violent drug offenders were sent to treatment programs instead if jail , an estimated $48 billion a year could be saved. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2017/04/24/upshot/spend-a-dollar-on-drug-treatment-and-save-more-on-crime-reduction.amp.html

Addiction is a mental illness just like depression and bipolar and I pity anyone in your family who suffers from it with a relative like yourself. The shame and stigma is what prevents so many from getting treatment on top of the ridiculously low number of science/medical based effective and comprehensive treatment facilities that are out there. Women who suffer from substance abuse are most often victims of abuse and other major trauma.

By treating people suffering from substance abuse properly instead of throwing them into jail/prison they can become fully functional members of society and contribute to helping all those needs kids and kupuna because the government sure as hell isn't.  It costs a literal fraction of incarceration and builds a stronger society.

I know I would still be a special needs low income preschool teacher if I'd been given a chance at treatment the closest opiate use disorder treatment centers are 110 miles from where I lived so it wasnt even me not wanting to go. I once even drove down to one of the few that existed 15 years ago with my boyfriend and we tried to be admitted but I was turned away because I was "too young" I was almost 19. My boyfriend had just turned 21 and had his license punched and the paper from the DMV to use as his valid temporary ID and that was why he wasn't admitted. I own my choices and don't blame anyone else but at the same time I own my choices in regards to my Bipolar 1, in that when I was finally diagnosed after almost a decade of misdiagnosed and failures of private psychologists and even juvenile centers I was sent to because of my psychotic mania, I work my butt off to attend treatment, take my meds, etc. I was only able to find an effective drug treatment center after being charged and convicted and having my life ruined at age 23. I was never given a chance. And my story is so so common to addicts, especially to BIPOC women like myself.

Billions and billions are spent annually on the US on the criminal "justice" system and imprisonment. Its not cheap, and these for profit companies know how to milk politicians into paying to build the facilities using public money then allowing them to manage for profit. Even without the disaster of turning the judicial system into a for profit enterprise which guarantees to raise the number of people arrested and convicted and who aren't rehabilitated and stay in and out of the system for life, because that's more profit for these major corporations. There's countless cases across the US where these companies make lawmakers provide a certain number of inmates for their facilities and when they don't they change the laws to incarcerate more people. This includes juvenile facilities. You know those kids those soulless druggie are stealing money from.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/04/28/how-for-profit-prisons-have-become-the-biggest-lobby-no-one-is-talking-about/

https://kidsimprisoned.news21.com/for-profit-juvenile-detention-centers/

Usually a post like yours I would consider to be someone trolling, and not very well either, but I know you're a regular poster who seems to otherwise be rational, caring and conscientious. I really hope you take a chance to stop and educate yourself on this issue before continuing to say things that are more commonly seen coming from fundies. I'd be happy to answer questions if you have any. I work as an addiction counselor now with mostly other Native women and am finishing my MSW to become an LCSW to be able to provide counseling on my own in rural areas without established organizations.  I hope you take this opportunity and I also hope, whether you take the former opportunity or not, that you or one of your loved ones never has to battle addiction,  even though the odds are high at least someone you know has or currently is. 

Thank you for your explanation. I was not aware that it was cheaper to rehabilitate drug/alcohol users than imprison them, because I didn’t even consider it might be. My grandfather was an alcoholic, and I know that it can ruin families. My husband’s mother was an alcoholic, my husband has fetal alcohol syndrome, so it can truly ruin other people’s lives. 
 

My husband works in social care, a sector that has completely been brought to its knees, and it absolutely breaks my heart that elderly people are left to their own sitting soiled in their own feces because there are no money to take care of them. The care sector is getting nothing, and we are failing them, just because they are elderly. They deserve better. 

My opinion is that I am completely against any sort of alcohol or drug usage, because it can ruin lives, even those of your descendants. I know this first hand. But obviously, and also as per your post, it goes together with better mental health care, so people are not left self-medicating with harmful substances. 
 

I am teetotal because my family and my husband’s family has been dealt a shit hand because of alcohol addiction. 

Edited December 28, 2021 by SorenaJ

[Sullie06]

On 12/26/2021 at 7:07 PM, 47of74 said:

When I had my vertical sleeve surgery in 2017 they ordered all the food for us and had our rooms marked so the people delivering the food went to the nurses station with the food and the nurses brought our food in.  It was an all liquid diet for the time I was in the hospital.  I didn't get back to solid food for a couple weeks after the surgery.  I did not eat very much during that time. 

I had VSG surgery in 2016. I was in the hospital 2 nights/3 days and was on a clear liquid diet as well. I wasn't hungry at all so I had to force myself to take sips but I was able to order off a "special diet" menu and the kitchen staff knew I was only allowed to have that diet and the food was brought directly to my room.

I stayed at the same hospital for both of my children's birth's and the food used to be really good. The cafeteria was run by the same company who ran the cafeteria's at the University in town. Then about 3 years ago the hospital decided to take over it's own food service and the quality of the food has gone way down hill. Not only is the taste subpar now but the selection is bare minimum. They are probably saving buckets doing their own food service but they should go back to contracting out. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

One of the YouTube lawyers mentioned Josh will be undergoing a psycho-sexual examination prior to sentencing and that this will be used, in part, to determine his SO treatment plan.  They mentioned this will be very uncomfortable for him.  

Does anyone know what this entails?  If he is forthright can what he says in this be used against him in his appeal?  Of course the doctor examining him will have experience working with involuntary clients who have every reason to lie, but will it be easy for Josh to fool them if he's careful?  Even if he weren't a predator he's not charismatic or charming. but Idk how this works.  

Does anyone have experience with this?

[Sullie06]

On 12/27/2021 at 12:27 AM, zee_four said:

All prison food isn't created equal. I can only speak for my own experience but when I spent some time in a smaller mountain county jail the food was date I say... decent? Definitely equivilent to the local school cafeteria fare in the area which is basic Sisco type stuff that meets the government requirements of "nutrition" but because it's done in much smaller amounts and batches the quality is better. They had a wicked good chocolate cake for dessert sometimes. They didn't have a canteen/commissary though. Men and women were kept in the same facility and it was really lonely. I looked it up and the year I was there the average was 8 women at any one time and about 310 men. But that also might have been for the entire year, not counting the holding cells. Definitely a huge disproportion and not enough for two separate facilities. Less human contact better food.

While I was in a big city jail, the food was rubbish. I shudder thinking about the standard lunch of the nastiest driest roll, sometimes with mold spots, and what I guess was some sort of random lunch meat with big black spots all over it. The only thing I could ever stomach was the milk carton. Yuck. The other food was bare minimum as well. I've been in both a regular psych ward and a military psych ward and while the food in either was nothing to write home about it seemed downright gourmet compared to Denver City. I've also heard DOC or Dep of Correcrions what prison (sentences longer than a year and no one on pre trial, bond, pre sentencing etc. That is who ianin jail) is called in Colorado, in the women's DOC and a couple of the mens, is much better than the worst jails but not as good as the best ones if that makes sense.

Different states, cities and counties have different contracts for food service. What I got in a county jail in the rural western part of the state was different than city jail in Denver and thats different than any of the federal facilities in the state. I've heard the for profit private jails have some of the most disgusting trash that shouldn't be considered food, stuff thats rejected from other institutions, bought for pennies on the dollar, and any scraps get reused no matter how gross or off they've turned.

Yes and no... technically the calls are all "monitored" except for ones with your lawyer who has to be verified and registered in advance with the jail. But no one sits and watches them unless there's a specific reason or concern. They're really just recorded and stored just in case.

The fees go directly into the pockets of the CEO of for profit prison and probation companies that run far too many criminal "justice" system components now. Even when I was on pretrial I paid $25 per UA (urineanalysis for drugs and alcohol) 5 x a month plus a $50 per month "monitoring" fee where I had to call their voice mail daily and leave a message with my name. Between the $2500 rental fee for my ankle bracelet plus $8 a day for the 90 day sentence of my plea agreement that was commuted to house monitoring because I was incredibly ill and in a wheelchair at the time and the $25 a pop UAs which I did between pre trial of 1 1/2 years when I was still legally innocent of any crime, then the 6 years of probation... I paid out of pocket $11,250 just to piss in front of a minimum wage untrained worker that makes McDonald's employees look like trained professionals. For all the services combined? Closer to $20k, not counting my lawyer or the fees that were part of my sentence which were aboit $6k, drug sentences in Colorado include a $3k flat fee.

The UAs cost a couple bucks a pop with the huge contacts GEO Corp and their probation monitoring subsidiary BI have. It was slightly less because when I was in Denver they were $12 but there was one employee there who charged me $25 (and its all in cash if you have to use debit you pay for the business fee BI is charged plus some) and when I tried to fight it he said I could pay him or he could fail me for the day which could potentially put me in jail and even void my probation and give me a 20-35 year prison sentence that was the minimum mandatory sentence of the non violent drug charge I had no choice but to plead out to.

BI is owned by GEO corp and is a multi billion dollar private prison corporation. They also own actual for profit prisons and worse for profit juvenile detentions and immigrant detaining centers that are akin to internment camps. Obama started to take action against this corrupt system but Trump undid everything. GEO Corp is based out of Florida and donated a disgusting amount to Trump. Millions of dollars and even more that was donated illegally.

They lobby for stricter prison sentences for non violent drug crimes and other "blue collar" crimes (never white collar stuff like tax evasion, running Ponzi investment schemes, etc.) They are in charge of pre trial, probation and parole in most jurisdictions in the US now in some capacity. Luckily Colorado still had government run probation officers but all other services, UAs, house arrest monitoring,  car breathalyzers (something they make millions on alone), etc. In some states they actually are the probation officers. This is horrifying because a good probation officer should be fair and their goal is to have their clients fulfil their sentences as well as helping reduce the chance of recidivism. This would be like making a client like myself who was an opiate addict, join and stay in compliance with a methadone clinic (which is what saved my life and turned things around for me) have them go to group or individual counseling, go to parenting classes...

Government POs are supposed to have at least an AA or a BA in Criminal Justice and complete continuing education. My PO also did the county's sex offenders and she had a specialized degree in that.If you can't tell, I love my PO she was amazing and we're still in touch. She cares so much but doesn't let you BS her around. If you try she'll be your best advocate, if not she'll make sure your consequences are tough but fair. At BI they use untrained, uneducated people who are there to enforce company profits. They have shitty jobs and get paid absolutely nothing and there's been so many times I, or people I've seen in various offices, get screwed legally because an employee doesn't like you, is in a shitty mood or worst, is a racist/sexist POS. You can file complaints but no one listens to criminals. Their company makes money keeping people in the system yet they're in charge of very pricey "rehabilitative" services. It's a huge conflict of interest that wouldn't be allowed elsewhere. 

The for profit prisons are the same. Their guards are less strictly vetted, less education, really just a HS diploma or GED is required,  they're paid less and the results are a lot of prisoner's rights being violated. Very few education, addiction rehab and job training courses are offered vs. government facilities which saves money and makes prisoners more likely to offend. 

These days with the for profit companies that run most prisoner communication systems, the calls are "monitored" for your average prisoner as in they're recorded and then if there's a reason to go back and watch/listen, usually something requested by a prosecutor or police. The cost is NOT for someone to sit and ensure each conversation is acceptable. The county jail isn't Supermax. The money is for CEO, board and shareholders profits. 

For profit call systems seem innocuous but they're outrageous expensive I think I've heard places that charge $1+ a minute and that's on top of ridiculous fees and upcharges, that can add 50 cents per minute alone.  More and more prisons and jails,, especially but not only the for profit ones, had done away with in person visitations before COVID for costs. Some still make families travel to the prison or jail only to sit and use a monitored Skype like device. COVID only ensured all prisons and jails now use this for profit service for all prisoner visits. It apparently is a 1 billion a year industry and it comes out of the pockets of the poorest families and at the expense of prisoners. Women, who's prison population rate has exploded because of non violent drug crimes having such high sentences and minimum mandatories that don't allow parole, and the majority of whom have children, are disproportionately affected.  Innocent children are impacted without regular communication from their parents in most situations (definitely not Josh).

Sorry for ranting but GEO Corp is the bane of my existence. I almost got kicked out and violated while waiting to do a UA (some places I waited up to 2 hours) and was talking with fellow "offenders". I mentioned how ridiculous it is that they're for profit and only make money if we stay in the system and new people are arrested and sentenced, the longer the better, but yet we're sitting here supposedly for rehabilitative services? We're talking low level offenders, drugs, property crimes,  people who couldn't pay court fees and got longer sentences. This was one of those super long frustrating waits, most of us had jobs to get to and things like that and they only had 1 person doing UAs for the 50 or so of us stuffed in the dumpy office building, wherever the lowest rent space is in an area is where their office will be even if its not ADA accessible (thats a different issue where they demanded I crawl up wooden outdoor falling apart steps covered in snow and ice when I was in a wheelchair because I had another episode of paralysis from the waist down). The conversation spread, no one was yelling or threatening but the room was pretty heated. Finally the "manager" of that location came out and pulled me into her office threatening to violate me, not let me do a UA drop another violation and even calling the police on me. I shut up it wasn't worth going to jail and spending another 10k for all the additional years of services.

 

 

I'm a Probation Officer in NYS and this is outrageous to me, the idea of privately run prisons/probation offices is disgusting. We are government run in my state. So I work for the county I live in and we are under the umbrella of NYS OPCA (Office of Probation and Correctional Alternatives). The state office very closely monitors how counties run their programs. We have to have at least a Bachelors but they prefer a Master's. We do no charge our Probationers for any services we render so we eat the costs of UA, EM monitoring and equipment, Journaling equipment, etc (comes out of our budget) and work refer out for services such as D/A treatment and mental health treatment.  Also Pre-Trial in our jurisdiction is done through out department as well by PTR Investigators. 

[Beermeet]

3 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

One of the YouTube lawyers mentioned Josh will be undergoing a psycho-sexual examination prior to sentencing and that this will be used, in part, to determine his SO treatment plan.  They mentioned this will be very uncomfortable for him.  

Does anyone know what this entails?  If he is forthright can what he says in this be used against him in his appeal?  Of course the doctor examining him will have experience working with involuntary clients who have every reason to lie, but will it be easy for Josh to fool them if he's careful?  Even if he weren't a predator he's not charismatic or charming. but Idk how this works.  

Does anyone have experience with this?

I definitely don't have experience but I looked it up. 

https://www.psychologicalaffiliates.com/the-objectives-of-psychosexual-evaluations