(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 43: Defense Rested After an Expert Witness with No Expertise

[Hane]

This just in (😂😂😂):

 

[3KidsAndStopped]

Defense closing continues

Gelfand continued, saying there was no reason for someone with access to the HP to stream videos instead of double-clicking on them.

He said the Linux logs were written over because Homeland Security Investigations waited six months.

Gelfand then claimed that Fottrell lied, noting the software he asked about and whether it was plugged into the internet didn't exist in 2019.

He added that the government played disturbing images and videos that didn't come off the device but from a thumb drive from Washington, DC, from other cases.

Gelfand then brought up that the government tried to pass off Tor as a bad thing, but it had been on the Macbook since 2017 and nothing bad was done with it.

Edited December 8, 2021 by 3KidsAndStopped

[SassyPants]

13 minutes ago, sixcatatty said:

I hope it lost something from hearing to posting. Every doubt does not have to disappear; it's a reasonable doubt. In other words, you may continue to have doubts but are they reasonable? There's also a term called residual doubt which usually is argued in sentencing for less time.

Fellow lawyer peeps: I don't practice in the Eighth Circuit and can't get to Westlaw at the moment. Do their Pattern Instructions call for defining reasonable doubt?

Reasonable doubt does not mean that you forego common sense when determining guilt or the contrary. So if you’re near a horse paddock and you see a couple of large animals and hear neighing, think horses and not zebras.

[neuroticcat]

6 minutes ago, MedicineWoman said:

Do you know who the guy was that walked in behind Jason?

No, sorry.

[Antipatriarch]

2 hours ago, metheglyn said:

The "patriarch" has arrived. In dark suit, with the bottle of colored water. And a curious expression.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I'm waiting for the "Spitzer lips" shot! You know the one I mean... a public figure caught in a scandal (e.g. sex scandal), gets in front of the media, and under the pressure, tightly compresses their lips.

Spoiler

 

[3KidsAndStopped]

No connection

Gelfand said the thumb drive with two documents and one Powerpoint was plugged into the HP computer and files were downloaded, but that there was no connection to Josh Duggar.

He also noted the Dell_One username, and said no Dell has been connected to Duggar. "Josh is a Mac guy," he said.

Gelfand then brought up uTorrent, Tor, VLC, and command lines, telling the jurors Bush said the Snap Store had no uTorrent option.

Edited December 8, 2021 by 3KidsAndStopped

[anjulibai]

I'm still worried. 😞

[3KidsAndStopped]

Transmission use

Next, Gelfand noted that Josh Duggar used Transmission and BitTorrent on the Macbook from 2017 and that uTorrent was on the Linux.

He said someone decided to not use Transmission when Duggar knew how to use it.

Edited December 8, 2021 by 3KidsAndStopped

[Antipatriarch]

3 hours ago, MedicineWoman said:

I'm holding out hope that these two will be liberals in 10 years

You never know! There's a lot of "deconstruction" going on in Christian circles these days. It doesn't always end with deconversion; a lot of Christians are shedding the toxic parts of their faith and arriving at a place that's much more affirming for themselves and others. Maybe not "liberals" but I wouldn't be surprised by "progressive Christians" and that would be a big improvement too. They've already moved significantly from where they were.

[3KidsAndStopped]

I am afraid I must preface this one with a "For Fs Sake". Sorry.

'Starstruck'

Gelfand suggested next that the prosecution was starstruck, and that when they realized the house from the search warrant wasn't Josh Duggar's, they sent someone "laser-focused" on finding him at the car lot.

He said the government didn't look at anyone else and had "excuses for everything."

Edited December 8, 2021 by 3KidsAndStopped

[metheglyn]

9 minutes ago, 3KidsAndStopped said:

Gelfand then claimed that Fottrell lied, noting the software he asked about and whether it was plugged into the internet didn't exist in 2019.

He added that the government played disturbing images and videos that didn't come off the device but from a thumb drive from Washington, DC, from other cases.

This just seems like a bad call all around. If he really said that Fottrell lied, where on EARTH would he have  presented any proof to back that up? Is he really trying to claim that the CSAM shown to the jury is *different* CSAM that what was found on the HP, that even their own expert acknowledged was there?

Edited December 8, 2021 by metheglyn

[gustava]

Anything on Judge's charge to the jury?

[Natalie22]

Just now, 3KidsAndStopped said:

I am afraid I must preface this one with a "For Fs Sake". Sorry.

'Starstruck'

Gelfand suggested next that the prosecution was starstruck, and that when they realized the house from the search warrant wasn't Josh Duggar's, they sent someone "laser-focused" on finding him at the car lot.

He said the government didn't look at anyone else and had "excuses for everything."

Excuses could also be another way of saying logical reasoning...

[3KidsAndStopped]

Previous allegations

Gelfand said the prosecution "dug up" allegations about Josh Duggar that were 20 years old when he was going through puberty, noting that Duggar went to his ex-girlfriend's mother to confess.

"That's not why we are here," he said

[bird]

3 hours ago, Marshmallow World said:

Yeah, I'm keeping my brain busy by working through legal hypotheticals, and I cannot wrap my head around that statement. Unless the Holts were going to give exculpatory testimony? But why brag about that, Bobye?

I think it might be a grammar issue. Do you know? I know because we were going to testify. She says "their" was going to be a trial so I'm guessing along those lines. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by bird

[3KidsAndStopped]

Smoking gun'

Gelfand said the only piece of evidence the government brought forth from May 13 was a single photo, that that was their "smoking gun."

He then turned to the evidence from May 15, when Josh said he was at the car lot and a customer said he would be there in 10 minutes.

10 minutes later, Gelfand noted, the child sexual abuse material was downloaded.

He added that the customer was expected to show up at any moment when that occurred

[TuringMachine]

6 minutes ago, 3KidsAndStopped said:

Gelfand then brought up uTorrent, Tor, VLC, and command lines, telling the jurors Bush said the Snap Store had no uTorrent option.

Ok but the utorrent website had an install in april 2019 you lying asshole https://web.archive.org/web/20190404231037/https://www.utorrent.com/downloads/linux/

[EmmieJ]

22 minutes ago, 3KidsAndStopped said:

"The real evidence is on the router," Gelfand said.

He noted that too much was at stake for Josh Duggar and that the router would tell them what devices were connected.

"Why don't we have the router?" he asked, claiming that the government did nothing to consider remote access.

Can someone tell me - did the Feds also take the router when they conducted the search warrant and seized the PC and other items at the car lot and from Josh?  If they did not, then surely Josh could have given his own defense team this all important router, no?

[Beermeet]

OMG.  The nerve of the defense/Duggars.  Wild conspiracy is not reasonable. 

[Bethella]

47 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

I don’t know enough about prosecution/defense, but could it mean that whoever was going to press charges dropped the case because the Holts testimony would be damning for the defense? Is she maybe implying the Duggars were powerful enough to get the case to go away?

This is a little late but I finally caught up. I  think this is referring to the case in late 2006/early 2007 after Oprah called the cops. The Holts were probably interviewed as part of that investigation. That case was dropped due to the statute of limitations. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Bethella
Excess words

[Chewing Gum]

Finally I have an advantage with the time difference between here and the USA, I get to go to sleep and wake up to (hopefully) a verdict.

[3KidsAndStopped]

Reasonable doubt

Gelfand told the jurors if they agreed remote access was possible, that was reasonable doubt, and that the law demanded they return a verdict of not guilty.

He added that no one appreciated what they were about to do more than Josh Duggar.

"Everything is on the line," Gelfand said. "We ask that you find him not guilty."

[imokit]

Just now, EmmieJ said:

Can someone tell me - did the Feds also take the router when they conducted the search warrant and seized the PC and other items at the car lot and from Josh?  If they did not, then surely Josh could have given his own defense team this all important router, no?

The prosecution didn't get it, because they couldn't get a warrant to cover it.

[neuroticcat]

Anyone remember the Ted Haggard scandal? He was a Megachurch pastor and pres of the National Association of Evangelicals. He was super outspoken on against gay marriage, leading his secret gay lover to come forward and make ou public their three year relationship as well as Ted’s drug use. Anyway, Ted denied some of it but admitted some of it, had to leave his megachurch, got bitter, returned to the same town and started a new church.

I bring it up here for two reasons (besides the fact that I happened to watch the old episode of Celebrity Wife Swap they were on last night and you are the only people who will only get why that is crucial to discuss today 😂)

1. As evidence that narcissists will always keep going for the spotlight. I don’t think Josh fits the bill so much as Jim Bob. This won’t stop him from doing what he wants and using this to rebuild his power. And there will be people to follow him, even if his family has broken all the rules they were espousing.

2. Haggard’s wife stuck by him. She wrote a book about it and went on all kinds of interviews telling “why she stayed.” The main reason being her own narcissism. Things like: what kind of person was I going to be? Was I going to do the hard thing I had counseled other women to do (of staying)? What was Jesus asking of me?

I can’t exactly recommend the episode - haha! But what was crazy is you could tell it was diving her nuts that the family she swapped with just wasn’t that interested in her story. She kept prompting it with “what questions do you have for me?l” and the other husband was like: what instruments do you play? So in the end she made it one of her rules that he HAD to listen to her story. 😂😬It reminded me of how mega families kind of get insulted when people don’t ooh and aah over how hard daily life for their mega family must be.
 

All that to say, another path forward for Anna is the martyr path, where she gets to tell her story of obedience through hard times and doing the next right thing and blah blah blah. I know it’s nothing new, but if she goes all in on staying she may get narcissistic supply and it might lead to a death grip on the super spiritual identity coming out of this. Like the Haggards, she may become evangelistic about her story and superChristian role in it.

If you want to kill time waiting for the verdict, here’s an interview with her npr did and excerpt from the book. It may be triggering, but it’s an interesting insight into the layers of spiritual abuse that compel these Christian women to stay: https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123410826

Edited December 8, 2021 by neuroticcat
Added link

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

2 minutes ago, 3KidsAndStopped said:

Gelfand said the prosecution "dug up" allegations about Josh Duggar that were 20 years old when he was going through puberty, noting that Duggar went to his ex-girlfriend's mother to confess.

"That's not why we are here," he said

Agreed. Not why you are there. Statute of limitations ran on those assaults. But do you really think those jurors are going to let him off with the huge risk that he harms additional kids in the near future if he's free? No, you don't.  But you have to try, I get that.