(CW: Possible CSA) Josh & Anna 37: Saving the Cocktail Dresses for Court

[VanillaBean]

I'm thinking about the comment that JB is protecting Josh out of fear his son would expose him. I don't disagree.  But why would he think that Jill (and the other 3 girls) couldn't likewise expose him? He's made it very clear that he doesn't care about his daughters in this situation. The ultimate irony will be if one of them brings him down. 

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

7 minutes ago, Expectopatronus said:

I don’t really understand why the jurors have to look at any of the images; no one is disputing that they qualify as CSA, the trial is to determine who downloaded them. Legal experts; will the jurors be able to access trauma therapy on the feds dime since they were forced to see these? I have intentionally avoided even reading descriptions of the images because I don’t want to know. If I was forced to know, I don’t think I could cope with that very well. 

I think the argument might be that defendants have the right for jurors to review and see for themselves. The crime is all about the images after all.  But given how bad these are, its the prosecution surely wants the jury to see them.

Anyone potential juror who couldn't deal with seeing the photos would presumably not be seated by the judge, assuming he or she raised their hand during selection.

[gustava]

5 minutes ago, TuringMachine said:

Almost 2 decades later and he's still the same arrogant, shitty person. Unfortunately if we learned anything from the Trump presidency, it doesn't matter. Just say it's a leftist conspiracy and that's good enough for the republican voters.

MAGA and Republicans are not one and the same.  MAGAites want to bring down the country, overthrow the Constitution,  and install a white, Christian, male dominated dictatorship.  Genuine GOPers believe in the Constitution .  See today's SCOTUS oral arguments on abortion:  Barret believes adoption is  substitute for abortion.  Roberts wonders why a pregnant (rape/incest/teenager) person would need more than 15 weeks to decide to get an abortion.  Yes, I know I'm WAAAAY off topic, but Duggars aren't Republicans:  They are Christian totalitarians who would send us all to prison if we violated any of their "Christian" laws.

[Bassett Lady]

1 hour ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

IMO the only valid excuse for Jeremy and Ben not being there is if Jessa or Jinger were adamantly against it

Well, Jeremy is in Graduate School, in California, and it is just before semester final exams, so I think that is a valid excuse to skip the trial. 
 

[VanillaBean]

8 minutes ago, TuringMachine said:

Almost 2 decades later and he's still the same arrogant, shitty person. Unfortunately if we learned anything from the Trump presidency, it doesn't matter. Just say it's a leftist conspiracy and that's good enough for the republican voters.

And yet it was Trump's DOJ that investigated and charged Josh. I'm sure the crazies will find their way around that inconvenient fact. 

[TuringMachine]

9 minutes ago, gustava said:

MAGA and Republicans are not one and the same.  MAGAites want to bring down the country, overthrow the Constitution,  and install a white, Christian, male dominated dictatorship.  Genuine GOPers believe in the Constitution .  See today's SCOTUS oral arguments on abortion:  Barret believes adoption is  substitute for abortion.  Roberts wonders why a pregnant (rape/incest/teenager) person would need more than 15 weeks to decide to get an abortion.  Yes, I know I'm WAAAAY off topic, but Duggars aren't Republicans:  They are Christian totalitarians who would send us all to prison if we violated any of their "Christian" laws.

Right, so MAGAites keep getting voted into office because they... don't represent the majority of republicans?

If you say so.

[Antimony]

17 minutes ago, karenb4729 said:

I am of the opinion that the other kids may not want to attend because they don't want to be shown as being in support of Josh which could be assumed by reporters.  As for JB, well he has an election to attend to and damage control for that election.  It's all about JB putting himself first.

Exclusive footage of Jim Bob supporting Josh this week (outside of paying these lawyers)

(You could also use this for Jim Bob supporting any child, but, you know. Showing up and giving a bad testimony and bouncing just fits this meme.)

[ToriAmos]

Is it a concern at all that Derick was sitting with Anna? and That Austin 'snubbed' them both?

Derick is fully against josh, right?

[snickerz]

Anna is an idiot for staying with Josh, but she is also a victim and a big loser in this thing no matter which way the verdict goes. If she were my sister in law, I'd give her a hug and support her through this. I would ALSO tell her to leave her POS husband and never look back.

[FleeJanaFree]

Am I alone in thinking Anna leaving during the photos is nothing more than it’s porn and it would be a sin for her precious eyes to watch? She’s trying to stay pure before the lord. 🙄 

[sansan]

5 hours ago, nst said:

why of all people would derick be there ? if his wife is not testifying today?

 

Derick could/and should be there to support Jill. First he can be there to tell her what is going on and if she has to testify she may feel better knowing Derick is close by. I think it is a smart move and it will make JB squirm a bit.

[AussieKrissy]

8 hours ago, Giraffe said:

Jill's testifying after years of therapy. I was sexually abused as a child and - after several years of therapy* - would have gladly taken the witness stand. I doubt Jill's being coerced into testifying and hope she's doing it willingly. Just my take on it and I could be wrong but I hope for her she's testifying from a position of strength and a way of taking back the power that was brutally taken from her as a child. 

 

*For anyone wondering how this would "work," my experience after therapy is that I no longer see myself as defined by the abuse. It's something that happened to me but it no longer defines me as it did when I first entered therapy (and before). 

I would hope Jill could find some one like you to befriend and support her 

A random stranger on the internet is super proud of you and your growth and strength 

[Ms. Brightside]

1 hour ago, luv2laugh said:

Buzz feed news posted an article detailing the photos shown in court today and I feel like throwing up now. I didn’t think this could get any worse. 

Yeah, I was curious when this news first broke in April what made things Josh was viewing “top 5 worst” since in my mind CSA was just atrocious and I couldn’t imagine what would put it into “worse” territory. So I did a little Googling and it made me sad (that information was more centered around the people who made the videos and a few vague things that happened to the victims that justified the sentences they received) but fair warning to anyone who is about to go read the Buzzfeed article… this is much more graphic than what I found previously.
 

Sadly I do think it is important for the jury to hear what was on the files that were downloaded. Since they were able to self-select out if they thought they couldn’t handle it when the jury was being selected, I would hope the people seated feel prepared to hear these things. I know seeing the details in the Buzzfeed article vs. the more vague “CSA is bad and this is bad bad” did drive the point home a little bit, for me, that someone who molested children around this age would absolutely seek out the types of images that were found and it chips away at that “reasonable doubt” angle. What I read previously was something that would make me think this could have been anyone with violent/control/weird fantasies… the details from the Buzzfeed article definitely make it sound more in line with Josh’s past problems. 

[EmmieJ]

29 minutes ago, gustava said:

MAGA and Republicans are not one and the same.  MAGAites want to bring down the country, overthrow the Constitution,  and install a white, Christian, male dominated dictatorship.  Genuine GOPers believe in the Constitution .  See today's SCOTUS oral arguments on abortion:  Barret believes adoption is  substitute for abortion.  Roberts wonders why a pregnant (rape/incest/teenager) person would need more than 15 weeks to decide to get an abortion.  Yes, I know I'm WAAAAY off topic, but Duggars aren't Republicans:  They are Christian totalitarians who would send us all to prison if we violated any of their "Christian" laws.

We'll have to agree to disagree.  At this point, MAGA and Republican are interchangeable to me.

[libgirl2]

7 minutes ago, EmmieJ said:

We'll have to agree to disagree.  At this point, MAGA and Republican are interchangeable to me.

I find very few Republicans that aren't MAGAts. We have one in my state who has been threatened and disowned by his family for not toeing the MAGAt line. I miss the days when we could disagree, but yet still do what we thought is best for the country and not worship some old pervy celebrity who hoodwinked this country with his bullshit. I was there in the 80s. I remember the way he behaved. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by libgirl2

[MomJeans]

33 minutes ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

I think the argument might be that defendants have the right for jurors to review and see for themselves. The crime is all about the images after all.  But given how bad these are, its the prosecution surely wants the jury to see them.

Anyone potential juror who couldn't deal with seeing the photos would presumably not be seated by the judge, assuming he or she raised their hand during selection.

That's exactly it.  Defendants have a Constitutional right to see all evidence being presented against them to the arbiter of fact, which in this case, is a jury.  In cases like this I know it seems unfair.  I am not minimizing the trauma involved for the jury or the victims.  

Jurors must view actual evidence, not descriptions of evidence, so you can't just tell a juror "trust us, we reviewed it, it's CSA."  

It's a terrible experience, and I'm sure some of the jurors will need counseling after this.  

[HerNameIsBuffy]

47 minutes ago, Expectopatronus said:

I don’t really understand why the jurors have to look at any of the images; no one is disputing that they qualify as CSA, the trial is to determine who downloaded them. Legal experts; will the jurors be able to access trauma therapy on the feds dime since they were forced to see these? I have intentionally avoided even reading descriptions of the images because I don’t want to know. If I was forced to know, I don’t think I could cope with that very well. 

I couldn't either and am also avoiding descriptions, although I am glad they're out there because too many people out there are in denial about him.  

They would have screened people like us immediately out of the jury pool.  I am sure one of the first questions to the jurors is if they thought they could handle seeing stuff like that.  I know I couldn't.

I feel terrible for the jurors who thought they could, for the sake of justice, and found out today that they couldn't.  

Someone asked upthread if the jury will be provided therapy for having to see those and it's an excellent question.  It didn't occur to me before, but they absolutely should.  It's a necessary infliction of trauma and they should be provided resources to deal with it.

[CaseyGrace]

43 minutes ago, gustava said:

MAGA and Republicans are not one and the same.  MAGAites want to bring down the country, overthrow the Constitution,  and install a white, Christian, male dominated dictatorship.  Genuine GOPers believe in the Constitution .  See today's SCOTUS oral arguments on abortion:  Barret believes adoption is  substitute for abortion.  Roberts wonders why a pregnant (rape/incest/teenager) person would need more than 15 weeks to decide to get an abortion.  Yes, I know I'm WAAAAY off topic, but Duggars aren't Republicans:  They are Christian totalitarians who would send us all to prison if we violated any of their "Christian" laws.

the Duggars are very much republicans and white christian male domination is an integral feature, not a bug in GOP ideology. If what you were saying was true, republicans would have universally condemned the January 6th riot, which they did not. I don't get how you insist that republicans do not want a christian dominated leadership. then bring up Coney-Barrett believing that adoption is substitute for abortion when that 1. does not make any sense 2. is an extremely MAGAite/theocratic belief. 

[Gobsmacked]

6 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I think he will be convicted. However I’m very afraid a juror or two will feel sorry for him and give him a light sentence. 

Jurors don’t decide the sentence in the USA?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 hour ago, Queen Of Hearts said:

I will give every Duggar child (and spouse - except Anna who should be there to see what he did) a pass for not attending the trial if they don't want to. We don't know what they can emotionally handle.  We don't know what they feel about Smuggar's innocence or guilt at this point.  They are not responsible for his actions - then or now.  They did not commit the crime and are not on trial.  These kids have been victimized their whole lives by their parent's exploitation.  At least four of them were also victimized by their brother.  Why should they subject themselves to having their emotions shown to be exploited by the media now?  

Every one of the adult Duggar siblings has been around Josh often before the arrest, and so have their children.  None of them (with the exception of Jill) has publicly distanced themselves from the brand.  They are all still associated with the brand by their own volition.  

JD and Jana are over 30.  They have no excuse to hide from this and get their news through the fun house mirror of JB and Michelle.  This viscous spider was nested in their family.  Preyed upon their sisters.  They have every right not to attend and I have every right to judge them for it.  JD has a child ffs, if he's going to continue to bring his daughter to the compound among Josh's enablers he has an obligation to see the evidence and decide for himself if his parents can be trusted once he knows the extent of the monster they actively protect.  

If any of them had noped out when the news broke and disassociated from the family publicly then sure, they'd get a pass.  But the others preferring not to know the worst of it are cowards.

 

1 minute ago, Gobsmacked said:

Jurors don’t decide the sentence in the USA?

In normal court yes, not in Federal court.  The judge decides and has discretion within the min and max.

[FiveAcres]

2 minutes ago, Gobsmacked said:

Jurors don’t decide the sentence in the USA?

Not in Federal cases.

[HarleyQuinn]

31 minutes ago, ToriAmos said:

Is it a concern at all that Derick was sitting with Anna? and That Austin 'snubbed' them both?

Derick is fully against josh, right?

I think this is strange too. I know everyone is getting their hopes up for Jill's testimony, but what if it down plays Josh's actions again? Derick rarely seems to have good intentions.

[MomJeans]

5 minutes ago, Gobsmacked said:

Jurors don’t decide the sentence in the USA?

No, they only decide whether the defendant is guilty or not guilty of each charge.

And if it is a death penalty case, if the jury finds the defendant guilty, juries must now also determine whether to recommend that the death penalty be given.

The applicable laws define the possible sentences, and the Judge determines the sentence based on the laws (and after hearing from the defense as to character witnesses or evidence of mitigating circumstances-- I'm not 100% sure that is allowed in Federal court though. I'm only familiar with a particular state's criminal sentencing hearings.)  ---  many state courts also do not allow juries to determine the sentences.  The state I practiced was the same as federal.

Edited December 2, 2021 by MomJeans
added more

[Chickenbutt]

Maybe Derick sees Anna as a victim too and is trying to be supportive of her?

[Cat Damon]

22 minutes ago, Ms. Brightside said:

fair warning to anyone who is about to go read the Buzzfeed article… this is much more graphic than what I found previously.
 

I also searched "Duggar" on Twitter because I couldn't remember which reporter was covering it, and to anyone thinking about it - please think twice before looking on there without a specific news account to follow. People were tweeting very graphic sections from news articles and it made me feel sick.