(CW: Possible CSA) Josh & Anna 37: Saving the Cocktail Dresses for Court

[feministxtian]

3 minutes ago, Antipatriarch said:

I suspect we've seen a preview of how he's going to spin this. I can see him at a microphone after the case is over, saying "The judge in this case allowed tabloid rumors to..."

yup! And the leg humpers will eat it up. Forget that it was just a watermark over an actual police report. I HOPE like hell JB gets his comuppance too. I'd love to smack the smirk right off his face. 

[EmCatlyn]

8 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Was it this morning when the judge said his testimony wasn't credible?  If so maybe he needs some time to get his countenance back in order before he's seen in public.

It's also possible he and Michelle want to maintain plausible deniability in their own heads by not being there when the pics are shown.  Like when I was a toddler and would pull my dress up over my face because if I couldn't see you then you couldn't see me.  

I outgrew the lack of logic, but Michelle lives by it.

…

You learned from them because they were genuine mistakes.  Even big mistakes are learning experiences good people can use to grow.

He didn't make mistakes, he's a predator who did exactly what he set out to do.  I would bet every penny I have that he believes his only mistake was in getting caught.

Yep, it was only this morning that the judge said JB’s testimony wasn’t credible. The judge made it pretty clear yesterday in his comments, however, and also made it clear that Jim Bob was not going to be the one to decide what was and/wasn’t acceptable.  All in all, on a personal level, JB must be feeling a bit humiliated.  I do think being removed from the witness list must have been a relief.

I agree that if they can’t get Josh acquitted, Jim Bob and Michelle will try to distance themselves from him.  And I am not convinced that JB is paying for Josh’s defense because Josh is “the golden child.”  I think they are afraid of what he would do (the dirt he might reveal) if they don’t defend and support him.  Once he was the “golden child,” but since the molestation scandal first came out and especially since Ashley Madison and so forth, Josh has been a liability,  a ticking-time-bomb at best.

Josh’s “mistakes” (in his own eyes) may have all been connected to getting caught, but you would think he would have enough sense to learn from those. And maybe he did: we never heard of his molesting a girl after he came back from “prayer and labor.” He just got caught watching porn.  Then we never hear about that again until he gets caught on Ashley Madison at which point he opts to confess to a porn addiction which he blames for causing him to stray from monogamy.  We hear nothing more (well, Danica, but she’s the same period) after prayer rehab.

Unless we believe that Josh stayed on the straight-and-narrow from 2005 to 2015 or so, and then again from 2016 to 2019, Josh has learned something from mistakes that led to his being caught.  Fortunately, he didn’t learn enough and he has been caught again.

You are right that from his perspective the mistake is in the getting caught.  He has never learned that the “mistake” is not controlling his selfish, inappropriate urges.

[nokidsmom]

Just now, Antipatriarch said:

I suspect we've seen a preview of how he's going to spin this. I can see him at a microphone after the case is over, saying "The judge in this case allowed tabloid rumors to..."

Yep totally agree on this.   If Joshley is convicted, he will definitely spin the conviction as flaws in the judge, the attorneys, the judicial system, anyone except himself for 1. acting like an ass in court and 2. screwed up big time raising his jailbird son.      

6 minutes ago, Giraffe said:

The siblings have been gaslit for so long that being in court (or having their spouse in court) could be helpful to confirm yes, Josh really is the shit human they've suspected for so long but haven't been able to put words to it. 

I think this is major for them to see how the real world sees this as opposed to how it's been fed to them in their family bubble.

I also think there will be more siblings going the same route as Jill as after this.  JB and J'chelle are losing control over their little empire.  

[HerNameIsBuffy]

8 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

However I think the real reason is not there has nothing to do with the judge. It has to do with not wanting to be there and needing to distance himself if it doesn't go the way he wants.

Or for when he's asked in interviews about how he can excuse certain specific images he can honestly say he didn't see them.  It's all a game of protecting themselves from accountability.

[neuroticcat]

I wonder if the defense told JImBob to stay away after how the initial day went. That his presence would hurt more than help?

[EmCatlyn]

28 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Sore? What about shamed, embarrassed and mortified. 

Yeah, well, understatement leaves it to the imagination.

[Sops2]

34 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Someone asked upthread and I may have missed an answer....feel free to smack me for asking to be spoonfed info but I can't scroll up until I get home.

If he's found guilty is he going to be taken into custody pending sentencing or will he still be allowed to go back to the Rebers?  To me the idea of letting him out once the verdict is in is insane, but I think the same about him being out this entire time so I'm not a good judge.

I asked the question a few pages back, but as far as I can see following the thread nobody has answered for sure.

Someone thought that it was up to the judge, but if they appeal, would he be sent back to the Rebers or straight into jail if found guilty? 

Where is he during the trial? At the Rebers or in a hotel nearby?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

6 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

And I am not convinced that JB is paying for Josh’s defense because Josh is “the golden child.”  I think they are afraid of what he would do (the dirt he might reveal) if they don’t defend and support him.  Once he was the “golden child,” but since the molestation scandal first came out and especially since Ashley Madison and so forth, Josh has been a liability,  a ticking-time-bomb at best.

I've thought this for years, even before this whole thing.  It's been damage control since the first scandal broke.  Keeping him quiet.  You can't use family loyalty to appeal to someone without a conscience, you try to protect them so they don't turn on you.  

 

[FiveAcres]

If I were a juror having to see this vileness, watching the adoring wife scamper out of the room to avoid the graphic images would not sit well with me. Just saying. 

[EmCatlyn]

11 minutes ago, Idlewild said:

I’m surprised at Austin. He’s been ill recently and still looked off colour On Joys Thanksgiving videos. I doubt he’d do JB’s bidding for him, so he must want to be there for himself.

He may be there for Joy’s sake.  He may want to know first hand what comes out about her molestation and he may also want to see the case against Josh first-hand. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, Sops2 said:

I asked the question a few pages back, but as far as I can see following the thread nobody has answered for sure.

Someone thought that it was up to the judge, but if they appeal, would he be sent back to the Rebers or straight into jail if found guilty? 

Where is he during the trial? At the Rebers or in a hotel nearby?

Even if they appeal once he's seen the way the wind is blowing how can he not be too much of a flight risk to keep him out on bail?  

I really hope people there are properly shocked over what was shown in court and the Rebers feel the aftermath once people know exactly what kind of monster they have been housing of their own volition.

[libgirl2]

3 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

He may be there for Joy’s sake.  He may want to know first hand what comes out about her molestation and he may also want to see the case against Josh first-hand. 

He might not be on either side right now and just wants to see for himself. 

[nokidsmom]

11 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I've thought this for years, even before this whole thing.  It's been damage control since the first scandal broke.  Keeping him quiet.  You can't use family loyalty to appeal to someone without a conscience, you try to protect them so they don't turn on you.  

Interesting thought and very possible I think.   That Joshley may have had JB over a barrel because if JB didn't back him up, he could dish all kinds of dirt on the wholesome Christian family because at that point Joshley would have nothing to lose and no chance at all of damage control in that case.

But supporting Josh and keeping him on a short leash so he didn't do any more damage didn't seem to work in the end either.     Josh managed to work around that and still get in trouble.

Edited December 1, 2021 by nokidsmom

[sndral]

9 minutes ago, Idlewild said:

So what’s with Anna? Teeters in on her high heels to listen to jury selection but bails when the allegations are detailed? 

I’m not shocked that Anna left when they showed graphic images. Evidence in criminal trials can be very disturbing & sometimes family members opt to not be present for especially horrendous evidence, more typically it’s the victim’s family who leaves & I’m not sure it’s a great defense strategy to have her leave presumably because the evidence is too upsetting for her to see when the poor jurors have to sit through it - is she somehow more special than they are? If she really believes hubby dearest is too dumb to do it - then she needs to put on her big girl panties and sit through the evidence just like everyone else was forced to do.

I know very little about tech stuff, and am wondering if someone more tech savvy than I can explain the significance (if any) of Josh’s statements to the agents on the day of the search warrant about ‘Tor’ and that peer to peer file sharing programs might be on his devices as detailed in the government’s response to defense’s first motion to exclude his statements. https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/59871253/44/united-states-v-duggar/

[EmCatlyn]

1 minute ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Even if they appeal once he's seen the way the wind is blowing how can he not be too much of a flight risk to keep him out on bail?  

I really hope people there are properly shocked over what was shown in court and the Rebers feel the aftermath once people know exactly what kind of monster they have been housing of their own volition.

The defense made the point in the opening statements that the real issue is not how horrible the images are but whether Josh is, beyond reasonable doubt, the person who downloaded them.

Now all of us, and most reasonable people (who will include the jury, I hope) know that Josh did it.  The evidence about where the CSAM was found, the partitioned hard-drive, the password, the timing, etc. are all proof.

However, if you have decided to discount the evidence that points to Josh as the guilty party, the images themselves aren’t going to make you angry at Josh but at the court for subjecting you and others to those images in order to “get at” Josh.

In short, the Rebers, Anna, and any Duggars (or friends) who for some weird reason believe that Josh didn’t do it, aren’t going to change their opinion of Josh or question their own support of him.

What would really be great is if some of them listened to the evidence that show it had to be Josh who downloaded the CSAM.  Only then can the images make them rethink their support of Josh.

[nokidsmom]

3 minutes ago, sndral said:

I’m not shocked that Anna left when they showed graphic images. Evidence in criminal trials can be very disturbing & sometimes family members opt to not be present for especially horrendous evidence, more typically it’s the victim’s family who leaves & I’m not sure it’s a great defense strategy to have her leave presumably because the evidence is too upsetting for her to see when the poor jurors have to sit through it - is she somehow more special than they are? If she really believes hubby dearest is too dumb to do it - then she needs to put on her big girl panties and sit through the evidence just like everyone else was forced to do.

Exactly this.  Maybe she just decided to leave on the spot it because was too much but yeah not sure that's a good defense strategy if she was advised to leave the room.

[AprilQuilt]

6 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

He may be there for Joy’s sake.  He may want to know first hand what comes out about her molestation and he may also want to see the case against Josh first-hand. 

Given her public profile and the fact that everybody knows Joy is Jane Doe 4, she may not want to go in person. It's very exposing, no matter how she feels about it all. Austin going instead puts a buffer between her and the trial, but means she still gets reliable information on how it's going.

Austin seems to really love Joy and I profoundly hope this is something they've been able to communicate about. I hope he's protecting her and supporting her right now, and that the other husbands are doing the same for their wives.

[sndral]

14 minutes ago, Sops2 said:

I asked the question a few pages back, but as far as I can see following the thread nobody has answered for sure.

Someone thought that it was up to the judge, but if they appeal, would he be sent back to the Rebers or straight into jail if found guilty? 

Where is he during the trial? At the Rebers or in a hotel nearby?

Haven’t dug into the federal rules, but IME in serious cases the defendant is remanded if the jury convicts. Prior to trial the defendant is presumed innocent, once convicted that presumption is gone. If convicted his attorneys will likely ask that he be allowed to remain out pending sentencing, but the Judge can deny their motion (like he’s denied 99% of their other motions.)

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, nokidsmom said:

Interesting thought and very possible I think.   That Joshley may have had JB over a barrel because if JB didn't back him up, he could dish all kinds of dirt on the wholesome Christian because at that point Joshley would have nothing to lose.    

On a true crime forum about Lizzie Borden someone posted that if she did it was because (paraphrasing) that her father's life had become less useful to her than his death.  Not arguing about whether she did it, or if she did if that was the reason....but the phrasing fits a lot of sociopaths for whom people are tools.  A means to an end. 

I don't think you need to be particularly smart to figure out if one of your kids is empty enough to destroy you if you don't keep them placated.  I think they both knew that a Josh with nothing to lose risks scorched earth.  Frankly I think JB and Michelle may be more afraid of Josh killing the brand than violence.  The wholesome Christian family thing is who they think they are, their core identity.  And the humpers have inexplicably validated this despite all the other scandals.  As long as they have plausible deniability they'll probably have some fan base, however small.  One of the kids comes out with an honest tell all and they'd lose even that.

[snickerz]

I do think there will be some splintering of family alliances. JB may have been able to control the narrative in the family until now, but him "not remembering" Josh molesting the girls is not going to sit well with them or their husbands, or some of the other in laws. I think cracks are appearing that will develop into rifts in the family regarding "whose side are you on." Hopefully all the adults in the family realize the whole thing is BS, Josh is a sack of sh* and JB & M are the ones who raised him that way and continue to make excuses for him.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

3 minutes ago, AprilQuilt said:

Austin seems to really love Joy and I profoundly hope this is something they've been able to communicate about. I hope he's protecting her and supporting her right now, and that the other husbands are doing the same for their wives.

I hope so too.  I'm glad he went, it sends a message that needs to be sent.  

5 minutes ago, nokidsmom said:

Maybe she just decided to leave on the spot it because was too much but yeah not sure that's a good defense strategy if she was advised to leave the room.

Depends what her reaction would have been.  If they felt she couldn't keep sweet and stoic and may freak out of vomit then having her leave could have been the lesser of two evils.  

[nokidsmom]

1 minute ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Frankly I think JB and Michelle may be more afraid of Josh killing the brand than violence.  The wholesome Christian family thing is who they think they are, their core identity.  And the humpers have inexplicably validated this despite all the other scandals.  As long as they have plausible deniability they'll probably have some fan base, however small.  One of the kids comes out with an honest tell all and they'd lose even that.

Regarding Josh going scorched earth, definitely I think it was the damaging the brand more than anything.   Loss of the wholesome Christian family image and their fan base, their reputation (such as it is).  And of course the money that goes with it.  It has survived some scandal but it has chipped away at their image and I think they worry that the next scandal will be the death stroke.  

[backyard sylph]

In a sweet fantasy, Ben and Jeremy would also show up and they'd all four sit together with arms crossed waiting for justice for their wives. 

4 minutes ago, snickerz said:

I do think there will be some splintering of family alliances.

And that is just what I am here for, fantasy above aside. 

[Dandruff]

2 hours ago, Alisamer said:

Also, if he was so dumb and computer-illiterate, why was he running a car lot and using a computer there?

Where did he access Ashley Madison from, and was that drive partitioned?

 

[JermajestyDuggar]

6 minutes ago, snickerz said:

I do think there will be some splintering of family alliances. JB may have been able to control the narrative in the family until now, but him "not remembering" Josh molesting the girls is not going to sit well with them or their husbands, or some of the other in laws. I think cracks are appearing that will develop into rifts in the family regarding "whose side are you on." Hopefully all the adults in the family realize the whole thing is BS, Josh is a sack of sh* and JB & M are the ones who raised him that way and continue to make excuses for him.

I think this would have happened regardless. You can’t have 19 kids, plus spouses, plus grandkids who all get along perfectly. I just think this is going to make the splintering happen faster and more extreme.