The Bruderhof: Very Nice, Very Odd

[purple_summer]

7 hours ago, adidas said:

They definitely shun. 

I haven’t seen anything about this, do you have a source?

[JermajestyDuggar]

7 hours ago, adidas said:

I’ve been pretty open in the past that I’ve dealt with Bruderhof through my work, and I’ve come to know some of the families quite closely. We even had a glass of wine together at a mutual friend’s wedding recently.

I do believe they border on being a cult, but I also believe on the continuum of cults they’re not too serious.

They definitely shun. 

I also believe in a sort of cult ranking system. The worse ones would be cults like Scientology. 

[Hane]

2 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I also believe in a sort of cult ranking system. The worse ones would be cults like Scientology. 

Yes—this. The YouTuber Telltale Atheist, a former Jehovah’s Witness, did a video in which he used the BITE model to classify the Catholic Church as a cult. As a born-and-raised Catholic who left the church in my 50s, I strongly disagree with him. From the info we’ve shared here, the church is so big and diverse that it’s only as culty as you (or your family) let it be. It’s really easy to slide into being a Christmas/Easter/weddings/funerals/baptisms-only Catholic, and then out the door altogether, unless you have a super-controlling family.

[MamaJunebug]

Thanking @anachronistic for starting this and providing the links to some former members’  info. 
 

As so often has been the case, FJ has helped me:  I’ve been studying with teachers outside of Christianity and becoming ... less than enchanted with, well, religion in general. 
 

Dave Marchant’s letter to his folks included a few lines that I recognize as where I am or want to be:

” When I think I know the whole scoop on things, I don’t feel like I need to deeply listen to the needs of others. To keep this dynamic (which is so natural) from occurring, takes a lot of effort. I find that the only way I can have the strength to really deeply understand where people are coming from is for me to first understand God’s mercy and grace in my life. I need to desire for God’s mercy and love to flow through my life and into the lives of other people.“

What I’m saying is: I have lived my life learning the distinctions. And as arrogant as this might sound, at this point it is for me to continue to understand that G-d’s grace and mercy in my life is there fir my leave of soul but also to inform how I interact with people. No more, no less, and it’s everything.

I had previously declared myself a free-range member of my denomination.  Now, the definition is more, “Understanding G-d as I do, obliged to treat others accordingly.”

The foregoing is more a meditation I need to see in front of me a d FJ is a goid place for me to store it.  I thank other FJ’ers fir their patience with such things!

And:  Thank you all again for the idea exchanges and spaces for personal growth & discovery  that happen here! 

[adidas]

11 hours ago, purple_summer said:

I haven’t seen anything about this, do you have a source?

My own eyes and ears  

But ... referenced here:

http://www.perefound.com/jr_cn.html

https://www.apologeticsindex.org/s50.html

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.religionnewsblog.com/27087/bruderhof-cult-doctor-chris-maendel/amp

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-england-51310036

https://www.nytimes.com/1996/12/08/nyregion/of-family-spirituality-and-power.html

There are many accounts of shunning from ex-members. This book goes into it:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1861519982/ref=cm_cr_arp_mb_bdcrb_top?ie=UTF8

[Marmion]

9 hours ago, Hane said:

Yes—this. The YouTuber Telltale Atheist, a former Jehovah’s Witness, did a video in which he used the BITE model to classify the Catholic Church as a cult. As a born-and-raised Catholic who left the church in my 50s, I strongly disagree with him. From the info we’ve shared here, the church is so big and diverse that it’s only as culty as you (or your family) let it be. It’s really easy to slide into being a Christmas/Easter/weddings/funerals/baptisms-only Catholic, and then out the door altogether, unless you have a super-controlling family.

I am familiar with Owen Morgan ( Telltale ) .  I feel that while he is well meaning , and has done some good work in raising awareness about various cults , he is simply overall ignorant of any form of Christianity , outside of Jehovah's Witnesses .  Like for instance , he's even touched upon my former church , The Church of the Nazarene , and gotten at least some details wrong . For instance , I have never before now even heard of the Book of Nicolai .  If it is ever taught , it would possibly be within specific classes , on the subject of non-canonical appocrapha , at some of their universities . But I have never heard it referrenced in any of the churches I had attended .  

Spoiler

 

  

Spoiler

 

This is why I feel that , in order to get the most accurate result , it should be those who are from the particular background in question whom take his BITE model / Fibonacci number quiz , for assessing to what degree a certain group might be a cult .  Which , by the way , I have done .  I have concluded that the Nazarenes score rather high on both thought control , and emotional control , but comparatively much lower on behavior and information .  It is my impression , from what I have read , plus my admittedly limited personal experience of attending  an IFB church , that their score would be the opposite , higher in the first two categories of control , and lower in the latter .  If I were to estimate what score the Bruderhof would get , I expect that they'd rank high in all four categories , from what I have gathered about them , from ex-members I discovered online . So yes , not all cults are equally as severe , and YMMV . 

Edited November 21, 2020 by Marmion

[purple_summer]

On 11/20/2020 at 8:44 PM, adidas said:

My own eyes and ears  

But ... referenced here:

http://www.perefound.com/jr_cn.html

https://www.apologeticsindex.org/s50.html

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.religionnewsblog.com/27087/bruderhof-cult-doctor-chris-maendel/amp

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-england-51310036

https://www.nytimes.com/1996/12/08/nyregion/of-family-spirituality-and-power.html

There are many accounts of shunning from ex-members. This book goes into it:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1861519982/ref=cm_cr_arp_mb_bdcrb_top?ie=UTF8

Thank you, this changes things for me significantly. 

[usedbicycle]

The definition of freedom to leave a religion or cult is always very tricky, never black and white.

Theoretically, the Bruderhof are free to leave when they reach adulthood. Many take some time to live "in the world", then they have the option of committing to the Bruderhof of their own free will. This commitment seems like a big deal though, something that is not easily broken like nun vows. In addition to the spiritual aspect of the vows, leaving would be difficult without a single penny to their name.

The BBC documentary follows the journey of a young woman who decides to see the world before making a decision about joining the community. Initially, she's rather excited by the opportunities she could develop, especially professionally. However, her time away is organized by the community so that she spends a year in poor suburb of London working a job with underserved youth and living in a Bruderhof community house. She is given very little money, barely enough to pay for a phone and food for herself. The social work is difficult and she is woefully unprepared. Not surprisingly, she feels like going home almost immediately. The whole thing reeked of being set up for failure. She was shown the most difficult and sad aspects of modern capitalist society - materialism, loneliness, poverty, struggle, dysfunctional families. By comparison, the Bruderhof seems like heaven, with built-in community and zero material struggle. In the end, she vows to return to the community because she wants her life to have more purpose than just running the rat race. 

Like many cults/religions (like I said, the line is blurry), they create a self-fulfilling prophecy where over-sheltered youth will struggle in the outside world, thus reinforcing the belief that the "inside" is a better place to be. 

 

 

 

[JermajestyDuggar]

27 minutes ago, usedbicycle said:

The definition of freedom to leave a religion or cult is always very tricky, never black and white.

Theoretically, the Bruderhof are free to leave when they reach adulthood. Many take some time to live "in the world", then they have the option of committing to the Bruderhof of their own free will. This commitment seems like a big deal though, something that is not easily broken like nun vows. In addition to the spiritual aspect of the vows, leaving would be difficult without a single penny to their name.

The BBC documentary follows the journey of a young woman who decides to see the world before making a decision about joining the community. Initially, she's rather excited by the opportunities she could develop, especially professionally. However, her time away is organized by the community so that she spends a year in poor suburb of London working a job with underserved youth and living in a Bruderhof community house. She is given very little money, barely enough to pay for a phone and food for herself. The social work is difficult and she is woefully unprepared. Not surprisingly, she feels like going home almost immediately. The whole thing reeked of being set up for failure. She was shown the most difficult and sad aspects of modern capitalist society - materialism, loneliness, poverty, struggle, dysfunctional families. By comparison, the Bruderhof seems like heaven, with built-in community and zero material struggle. In the end, she vows to return to the community because she wants her life to have more purpose than just running the rat race. 

Like many cults/religions (like I said, the line is blurry), they create a self-fulfilling prophecy where over-sheltered youth will struggle in the outside world, thus reinforcing the belief that the "inside" is a better place to be. 

 

 

 

I saw that too and completely agree with your assessment. Amish similarly set their children up for failure when they go out into the world for “rumspringa.” 

[FiveAcres]

50 minutes ago, usedbicycle said:

Like many cults/religions (like I said, the line is blurry), they create a self-fulfilling prophecy where over-sheltered youth will struggle in the outside world, thus reinforcing the belief that the "inside" is a better place to be. 

 

It is hard to tell which is worse: this behavior of setting people up to fail while telling them they are free to leave, or the FLDS polygamist cults abandoning their totally unprepared young males to the alien, outside world so they aren't in competition to the older men who want to marry the teenage women. 

[fundiefan]

1 hour ago, usedbicycle said:

The definition of freedom to leave a religion or cult is always very tricky, never black and white.

Theoretically, the Bruderhof are free to leave when they reach adulthood. Many take some time to live "in the world", then they have the option of committing to the Bruderhof of their own free will. This commitment seems like a big deal though, something that is not easily broken like nun vows. In addition to the spiritual aspect of the vows, leaving would be difficult without a single penny to their name.

The BBC documentary follows the journey of a young woman who decides to see the world before making a decision about joining the community. Initially, she's rather excited by the opportunities she could develop, especially professionally. However, her time away is organized by the community so that she spends a year in poor suburb of London working a job with underserved youth and living in a Bruderhof community house. She is given very little money, barely enough to pay for a phone and food for herself. The social work is difficult and she is woefully unprepared. Not surprisingly, she feels like going home almost immediately. The whole thing reeked of being set up for failure. She was shown the most difficult and sad aspects of modern capitalist society - materialism, loneliness, poverty, struggle, dysfunctional families. By comparison, the Bruderhof seems like heaven, with built-in community and zero material struggle. In the end, she vows to return to the community because she wants her life to have more purpose than just running the rat race. 

Like many cults/religions (like I said, the line is blurry), they create a self-fulfilling prophecy where over-sheltered youth will struggle in the outside world, thus reinforcing the belief that the "inside" is a better place to be. 

 

 

 

I watched that. And I agree. That girl was given absolutely nothing by way of ability to make a life for herself. Money & opportunity aside, even, she was not mentally or emotionally mature or experienced enough to survive outside the community. Even her attempts to leave were orchestrated by the community. And that's where & why I don't believe for a second she made a choice to stay, or was given a chance to see the world outside. Everything about it was manipulated. 

 

[maybeizfundie]

It is always so weird to see the Bruderhof referenced. They are such a tiny, obscure group.

Anyway, my family was part of them for about 5 years (and "seeking"--considering joining, for several years prior). We were kicked out about 23 years ago, and it is amazing how much a relatively short stint with them affected all of us. Really consumed our lives for probably 10 years after, the mental and emotional toll was so great. It's odd now, 2 decades later, to look at their instagram and see the children of my former classmates, and the babies I used to help out with in the "babyhouse" (their version of daycare), grown and getting married. 

I would call them a cult. They absolutely engaged in numerous cult-like behaviors when we were there, and for several years after. There's a lot of gaslighting, there was coercion with regard to marriage and family planning, there was food control, sleep deprivation. And of course, public confession/humiliation/denouncement sessions. Of course, no visitor will EVER see that. It only happens once you've committed your life to them and given them literally all of your money to go into the "common purse." At which point leaving immediately becomes significantly more difficult.

They have had a change in leadership recently which has resulted in *some* gestures towards being more open, but there's still little effort to take responsibility for the massive damage they've caused to many people, and that damage includes people who were suffering with mental illness or who experienced abuse at the Bruderhof ultimately taking their own lives. There are numerous leavers who have been separated from family members for years. Quite a number of my peers were ditched--in their teens--in obscure little towns and $50 bucks and told that since they didn't want to follow the rules they could just make it on their own. This was done to families as well, including my family--4 children, $300 dollars, a deposit on the shittiest, most vermin infested housing they could find for us, and a car on its last legs. That's how they kicked my parents out. My parents, who had given up all their worldly possessions, life savings, and 5 years of free labor when they could have been making very good incomes out "in the world." My family was extraordinarily lucky, because both of my parents had prior careers and were able to pick up almost where they left off, just with no savings, no home equity, or anything like that. Other families were not, and lived in abject poverty, with no higher education to fall back on, no career base, and absolutely no experience of living in a society composed of people other than Bruderhofers. I believe that was intentional, as these situations drove many leavers back to the Bruderhof in sheer desperation, humbled and ready to "confess their sins" regardless of whether they had actually committed anyway. 

I wrote a lot more than I intended to in this response. Happy to answer questions, but remember that I can only offer personal experience that's 2 decades old, and whatever I have gleaned from others who have left later.

There is a facebook group called Afterhof, which I believe is open to the public and has information from leavers. It's not all negative. There were definitely things we learned, and bits of the culture that many of us value and have tried to retain. 

[Black Aliss]

On 11/19/2020 at 10:36 AM, FluffySnowball said:

What about sex toys, for example? I’m willing to share a lot, but my vibrators are my own, thank you very much. 

Also, people from the Bruderhof have to ask for money and give specific reasons before being granted an allowance. So what could they do?

Claim stiff neck/sore shoulders from doing too much manual labor? I always smirked at the Hitachi ad that showed a woman using a Magic Wand on her trapezius muscles, but 20 years later I discovered it works really well up there, too.

Edited November 24, 2020 by Black Aliss

[smittykins]

Or those 60s ads showing a phallus-shaped vibrator as a “facial massager.”(Yeah, I do realize most states at the time had laws against marketing sex toys.)

[Hane]

1 hour ago, smittykins said:

Or those 60s ads showing a phallus-shaped vibrator as a “facial massager.”(Yeah, I do realize most states at the time had laws against marketing sex toys.)

Even as a naive young kid, I thought that something shaped like a lipstick was a really inefficient device for facial massage!

[PennySycamore]

10 hours ago, smittykins said:

Or those 60s ads showing a phallus-shaped vibrator as a “facial massager.”(Yeah, I do realize most states at the time had laws against marketing sex toys.)

There used to be an ad for those facial massagers in the Spencer Gifts insert in the Parade Magazine insert in the Sunday paper in the 60s.

[whitney37354]

The Bruderhof have just purchased the college campus in the small town where I live.  The college closed down a couple of years ago.  Influential locals are already side-eying them and calling them a cult and we haven't even gotten started yet.