Mills Family 4: Playing Magic for Jesus

[Coconut Flan]

Asher is under 18, right?

Then discussing whether or not he has any disorder is against the FJ rules.

Quote

Do Not Diagnose Children

Please do not internet armchair diagnose children from pictures.   Most of these kids have no control over anything in their environment and no say in whether their lives are up for public consumption.   The last thing they need is to google themselves down the road and find out a bunch of strangers on the internet think they were on the autism spectrum or some other random diagnosis.

 

[Itsjustme]

4 hours ago, Nikedagain? said:

And she answered you.

We just do not do that here. FJ is a really safe, neurodiverse space. We have amazing folkx here who are on the spectrum and LOTS of parents navigating that path. 

I know you didn't have malicious intent! 

so how do I delete the post? 

2 hours ago, Coconut Flan said:

Asher is under 18, right?

Then discussing whether or not he has any disorder is against the FJ rules.

 

How do I delete it then? 

[G33kywife]

1 minute ago, Itsjustme said:

so how do I delete the post? 

How do I delete it then? 

Deleting posts is against FJ rules. 

[Giraffe]

8 minutes ago, Itsjustme said:

so how do I delete the post? 

How do I delete it then? 

You don’t. You learn from it and move on. 

[Gussie]

Serious question.

So let's say the oldest son Thomas moves out in a few months, leaving 7 younger children almost exclusively in Asher's care.  They have help from Andrea's sisters with homeschooling and from Tom's mom, but it seems that the older boys do most of the after hours childcare. 

Does anyone have any personal experience to draw on, as to how this might play out? 

Edited December 13, 2019 by Gussie

[Gussie]

Giraffe, my question relates to just wondering if anyone here experienced the loss of a parent in childhood, and if the kids turned out ok raising themselves?  And if no one here knows of such a scenario, do they know of anyone who experienced this?

I want to be hopeful for those kids, but …...

[Giraffe]

22 minutes ago, Gussie said:

Giraffe, my question relates to just wondering if anyone here experienced the loss of a parent in childhood, and if the kids turned out ok raising themselves?  And if no one here knows of such a scenario, do they know of anyone who experienced this?

I want to be hopeful for those kids, but …...

As each of the kids turn 18, I hope they move out, get whatever education they want to, and feel no guilt about leaving the younger kids. I hope those who move out find good therapists to help them grieve for Andrea in ways they seem to be denied now. Psychology dot com can be a starting place for a therapist.
 

I hope they question everything they’ve been taught about their faith. I hope they realize that if God/god is truly good, said god/God will understand the kids’ rage and the kids’ need to take a break from the religiosity they grew up with.
 

I hope they discover self-care is essential and reject the notion that self-care is somehow selfish or evil or of the devil. Searching “what is self-care” can be a great start. 
 

I hope they go to a board certified dentist. 
 

I hope they discover sites like homeschoolers anonymous and other websites where people who grew up like them have found help and support and friendship.

 

I hope they learn how to budget and learn other essential life skills (“necessary life skills” is another good search topic) they missed out on. 
 

I hope they find support for “adults who lost parents as children” where they can find others who have dealt with the same rage, confusion, depression, and gut-wrenching pain that losing a parent can cause. 

Edited December 14, 2019 by Giraffe
Not done

[ViolaSebastian]

12 minutes ago, Gussie said:

Giraffe, my question relates to just wondering if anyone here experienced the loss of a parent in childhood, and if the kids turned out ok raising themselves?  And if no one here knows of such a scenario, do they know of anyone who experienced this?

I want to be hopeful for those kids, but …...

This is a safe question. Of course, I can't say exactly what's going on in this household and, clearly, it's difficult to predict the future when it comes to situations like this. This kids could go on to lead fairly typical, happy lives. However, although I've not personally seen a case this severe--and this is, indeed, a rather extreme case just given the sheer number of children involved--I have seen many, many cases of parentified children who are raising their siblings. Now, the cases I see almost always involve a parent or parents who have severe and persistent illness and/or a substance abuse problem of some kind. Just to be clear, I am not saying that this is the situation in this case, merely that there exists a parallel because you see children being parents to their siblings. 

To put it bluntly and state something rather obvious, it's not good for children to be raising other children. Parentified children are at greater risk for anxiety and depression; it disrupts attachment in the children being parented; children neglect their own needs for that of the family's; they are at higher risk for self-harm and substance abuse; more likely to have issues with appropriate boundaries; and more likely to have problems with interpersonal relationships and academic work. It also impedes identity development and appropriate development in general. 

[Momma's In Charge]

2 hours ago, Gussie said:

Giraffe, my question relates to just wondering if anyone here experienced the loss of a parent in childhood, and if the kids turned out ok raising themselves?  And if no one here knows of such a scenario, do they know of anyone who experienced this?

I want to be hopeful for those kids, but …...

(New here) i think it depends on their foundation. My best friend lost her mother at age 17. She had two older brothers and one younger sister. The older bros were living at home. Their father was an arrogant a-hole who justified his treatment of his wife behind it being spiritual or religious (despite our pastors telling him his behavior wasn't loving or biblical). However, their dear mother was deeply religious and stayed with their father because of it. Their dad was a lot like Tom personality wise. The three oldest kids remembered how miserable their mom was and didn't kiss up to him. Only their 10 year old sister did. As a result, he pretty much disowned them for not seeing him as their savior and selfless father. This jerk couldn't wait to collect the life insurance and get remarried. He always acted repulsed by his wife due to how "big" she became after bearing 4 of his children. I see a lot of the same body language in Tom in their "how we met video" (Tom acts uncomfortable and unemotional about their relationship and can barely look her in the eyes). I'm likely projecting a lot of my biases onto Tom, but Tom strikes me as one who feels victimized by his wife's death in the sense that his life is so hard now, rather than his true sadness over the emotional loss of her for him and his kids.  

Anyway, my friend ended up moving in with my parents and the boys moved out and started their own lives rather quickly.  Their father lasted about a year before one of the older boys adopted their little sister out of concern. They got her therapy, but it was a bit too late and she ended up marrying a maman just like her dad. The family is broken to this day. They hardly ever see each other, as if the pain is still too much to bear 25 years later. My friend and her brothers who had more time with their loving and hands-on mother did pretty well. My friend and one of her brothers each have great marriages. The other is a single dad who has custody of his kids and is stable. I just hope Andrea's influence is enough to keep this family together via the older brothers. It is so unfair to them, but I honestly don't see Tom being able to do it because he was babied so much in the relationship. 

Edited December 14, 2019 by Momma's In Charge

[Momma's In Charge]

I'm new here but was attracted to this topic because it shows how hypocritical fundies are. The Bible clearly condemns magic and pagan practices. Yet, so many fundies celebrate holidays rooted in paganism and/or glorify dark spirits and their practices in the name of "fun". What is worse is they judge and condemn others! Tom's absolute lack of emotion and justification for everything he does makes me worry for those kids. Anyone who manipulates scripture to justify their own sins is dangerous, IMO. 

[Kailash]

Obviously fictional and dramatized but the tv show Shameless portrays some of the issues trying to raise siblings causes for the one in charge. I think in many ways it is fairly accurate relating to the caregiver’s personal intimate relationships, responsibilities and personal problems. 

[nelliebelle1197]

4 hours ago, Itsjustme said:

so how do I delete the post? 

How do I delete it then? 

I will edit it for you! We don’t delete posts. You are fine. Don’t worry about it! I sent you a personal message and will be here to help if you have any questions. Messages are in the top right hand corner of the page.

Edited December 14, 2019 by nelliebelle1197

[formergothardite]

25 minutes ago, Momma's In Charge said:

I'm new here but was attracted to this topic because it shows how hypocritical fundies are. The Bible clearly condemns magic and pagan practices. Yet, so many fundies celebrate holidays rooted in paganism and/or glorify dark spirits and their practices in the name of "fun". What is worse is they judge and condemn others! Tom's absolute lack of emotion and justification for everything he does makes me worry for those kids. Anyone who manipulates scripture to justify their own sins is dangerous, IMO. 

I really don't see how celebrating holidays is hypocritical. Or playing magic the gathering. Or whatever the game is they play. It isn't like they preach those things are evil and then go and do it. In the scheme of things, the magic games is pretty harmless compared to Andrea and Tom teaching them racism and hate.

What sin is he using scripture to justify? If it is treating his kids like shit, I agree, that is dangerous.  

 

[Gussie]

Ironically, I fear less for the little kids, and more for the older kids who will give themselves to the nurturing of their younger siblings, only to be left resentful, and anxious and disadvantaged when later facing the world.  It is pretty clear that the situation is overwhelming for the dad in the family.  The boys seem to understand the situation, but that Thomas is moving out (he never ever said that while his mom was alive.  He planned to stay home till he could afford to buy a house in cash.  Now he will be gone in a matter of months.).  The next older boys are not ready for this challenge.  The littler kids will grow up completely wild.  

I am sure there are other people who have experienced this, and who have managed somehow to turn it all around.  

[Flossie]

10 hours ago, Momma's In Charge said:

The Bible clearly condemns magic and pagan practices. Yet, so many fundies celebrate holidays rooted in paganism and/or glorify dark spirits and their practices in the name of "fun".

So...I take it we won't be seeing you in The Great FJ 2019 Holiday Thread?

[formergothardite]

10 hours ago, Momma's In Charge said:

I just hope Andrea's influence is enough to keep this family together via the older brothers. It is so unfair to them, but I honestly don't see Tom being able to do it because he was babied so much in the relationship. 

Her influence was terrible, though! She treated her kids like objects she owned, neglected their health, gave them not only an awful education, but one filled with sexism ans racism and she taught them things like that the Sandy Hook parents were liars who was being paid by Obama so he could take guns! She was a vile, nasty person who some how managed to convince people she was actually a good parent. 

These kids need to overcome both of their parent's bad treatment of them. I won't be shocked if they end up with massive dental bills as an adult because of Andrea and who knows what other sort of health issues.

[louannems]

17 hours ago, Gussie said:

Serious question.

So let's say the oldest son Thomas moves out in a few months, leaving 7 younger children almost exclusively in Asher's care.  They have help from Andrea's sisters with homeschooling and from Tom's mom, but it seems that the older boys do most of the after hours childcare. 

Does anyone have any personal experience to draw on, as to how this might play out? 

My youngest is 30 years old so it's been a while since I have bathed small children but I'm pretty sure it included soaping up the private bits.  I honestly feel uncomfortable having an older brother washing his baby and toddler sisters. I'm sure Asher is doing a fine job but it just doesn't seem like a job a teenage boy should have to shoulder.  And I'm sure he has to.

I'm aware Andrea said the kids only get one bath a week, but still.  All the more reason to thoroughly soap up!

[thoughtful]

19 hours ago, Itsjustme said:

so how do I delete the post? 

How do I delete it then? 

@Itsjustme, as others have said, we don't delete posts.

It looks to me like you were asking the question sympathetically, and it certainly looks like you want to correct your error, by asking how to delete rather than getting defensive. 

I think, if you continue to post within the rules, all will be well.

 

[can'tstopwatching]

"You'd get remarried -- and fast" is the new made-up quote Tom is attributing to Andrea. And he said he knows he will now, too.

Edit: someone commented "Wouldn’t it be nice if you met someone for you and your beautiful children that has watched these videos and has known what you have gone through" and Tom said yes it would, maybe she's there.

 

Oh boy now he's wrapping Solomon a toy gun and going on about how they love shooting in their family and there's nothing wrong with it. Plenty of dissension in the chat.

Edited December 14, 2019 by can'tstopwatching

[Gussie]

I only tuned in for a few second here and there.  Once when he was wrapping a drone for Justus and then when he was wrapping makeup and tiaras and play high heels for Claudia.  

Gotta say, whatever the rest of the livestream was, at least he got the kids stuff they would like rather than stuff that would be humorlessly useful.

[OyHiOh]

On 12/13/2019 at 6:08 PM, Gussie said:

Giraffe, my question relates to just wondering if anyone here experienced the loss of a parent in childhood, and if the kids turned out ok raising themselves?  And if no one here knows of such a scenario, do they know of anyone who experienced this?

I want to be hopeful for those kids, but …...

My gentleman friend lost his father at age 11 (younger sister was nine, older brother ten years older, off in art school).  One would think, only two school age children, that they would not have been expected to raise themselves but they sort of were.  Mother worked very hard for a hand to mouth existance and the two kids had to do all the home chores, cook evening meals, in addition to their own homework (my friend often had to help his younger sister with hers in addition to his own).  They both started working horrifyingly young to supplement their mother's income (we're talking the tail end of 50's and into the 60's here)

One the one hand, my friend had to "grow up" and be "man of the house" and "stiff upper lip," which translated into significant anger issues, depression, and a suicide attempt in his early 20's.  I don't know his sister as well, I don't know how she frames their experience of childhood.

On the other hand, my friend somehow managed to absolutely thrive in school.  Became one of the first couple dozen black stock brokers on Wall St in the mid 70's, has been sucessful beyond wildest dreams.  His sister is a brilliant computer scientist.  Project manager for Bell Labs barely a year after finishing her Master's degree.   Code she personally wrote is the foundation of camera functions on smart phones and tablets.

The Mills kids?  There's going to be a lot of mental health issues in these childrens futures.  It will be couched in religiosity but the kids absolutely will experience issues.  The really critical issue is that they are not being given time, space, or (most crucially) the language with which to grieve and that will have consequences.

[Pleiades_06]

11 hours ago, louannems said:

My youngest is 30 years old so it's been a while since I have bathed small children but I'm pretty sure it included soaping up the private bits.  I honestly feel uncomfortable having an older brother washing his baby and toddler sisters. I'm sure Asher is doing a fine job but it just doesn't seem like a job a teenage boy should have to shoulder.  And I'm sure he has to.

I'm aware Andrea said the kids only get one bath a week, but still.  All the more reason to thoroughly soap up!

I agree that the kids don’t need to  take so much responsibility for  the younger kids, but I don’t think an older brother bathing younger siblings is any more of a problem than an older sister doing it. In fact, I think it’s good kids go beyond gender prescribed roles so they can learn how to be well rounded, capable adults. 

[Renee]

22 hours ago, Gussie said:

Ironically, I fear less for the little kids, and more for the older kids who will give themselves to the nurturing of their younger siblings, only to be left resentful, and anxious and disadvantaged when later facing the world.  It is pretty clear that the situation is overwhelming for the dad in the family.  The boys seem to understand the situation, but that Thomas is moving out (he never ever said that while his mom was alive.  He planned to stay home till he could afford to buy a house in cash.  Now he will be gone in a matter of months.).  The next older boys are not ready for this challenge.  

I find it so interesting, surprising actually, that Thomas is saying he will move out very soon after his 18th birthday in January.

Thomas seems so close to his Dad. It looks in the videos that he is always attentive to him, watching him, and of course he's his moderator. Thomas sat at his Dad's side for the whole 2 hour random Wednesday chat.

I just find it so curious that Thomas wants out, particularly during a time the family is reeling at losing Mom. Tom clearly wants him to stay, so ...... I just find it surprising and we may know more with time.

[Justsum1twothree]

I can definitely see why Thomas wants to move out. He seems like a responsible kid who wants to go forth with his life and have some freedom. At home he’ll still only have that little cubby to sleep in, etc. at 18 vs. having his own true space. 

[can'tstopwatching]

8 hours ago, Gussie said:

I only tuned in for a few second here and there.  Once when he was wrapping a drone for Justus and then when he was wrapping makeup and tiaras and play high heels for Claudia.  

Gotta say, whatever the rest of the livestream was, at least he got the kids stuff they would like rather than stuff that would be humorlessly useful.

The weird thing was the only gifts he got Sophia and Hannah were tablets. I understand every kid’s gifts totaled the same amount. But a 5 and 1.5 year old won’t understand that, and I think it’ll be sad for them watching Claudia get to unwrap her pile. I would’ve hated that as a kid because I just liked to unwrap things and have the little surprises.