Botkin Alert. They are back on the conference circuit!

[hoipolloi]

1 hour ago, Marian the Librarian said:

Scott's right up there with Geoff and Doug Phillips on the loathsomeness scale.

Along with Doug Wilson and R.C. "Spanky" Sproul, Jr.: the five patriarses of the Apocalypse.

Re: Katie. She's awesome. I have so appreciated her informed & witty commentary. She seems to be thriving, which is great.

Re: your mom. It must be very hard. 

[Marmion]

The question I have for @notkin , regarding Geoffrey Botkin , is if she knows for sure what exactly her uncle's political ideology is .  From what was brought up much earlier in this thread , I know that he admires Hungarian president , Viktor Orban https://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_direct_link.cfm?blog_id=68341&cat_id=1660&Who-is-Viktor-Orbn  , who is widely regarded as being a neofascist https://www.redstate.com/streiff/2014/07/29/hungary-limps-toward-fascism/  , plus with his referring to his parents as being " Marxist " , by which I take it he meant in the more figurative sense of Cultural Marxism , I wonder if he himself might possibly be neo-Nazi , or something like that .   

Edited October 23, 2019 by Marmion

[Howl]

5 hours ago, notkin said:

Not sure how much he’s been discussed here, but I find Doug Wilson horrifying. I was somewhat familiar with him as my mom is a fan, and became a little more acquainted with his beliefs following the sex abuse scandals my cousin Katie reported on.

I agree with you 100% on this!  I haven't been keeping up with the juice on the Palouse, but when I was, I found Doug Wilson to be a  truly evil human being, absolutely and literally Machiavellian.  Doug Phillips is tap dancing to oblivion, Geoff is holed up in god-knows-where Tennessee and surviving financially on his sons' backs, but Doug Wilson's empire is thriving and even expanding.  Katie's commentary and critiques of all things Wilson were extremely insightful.  

Wilson's fantasy wet dream, which he may well achieve, is taking total control of Moscow, Idaho with his church, his "Biblical"  counseling clinic, his schools, college, seminary, home school curriculum, publishing company and whatever else they've spun off.  

He has numerous church members in positions of influence on the town council, and they vote Wilson's agenda for whatever issue is pending before the council. 

Edited October 23, 2019 by Howl

[hoipolloi]

7 minutes ago, Howl said:

Wilson's fantasy wet dream, which he may well achieve, is taking total control of Moscow, Idaho with his church, his "Biblical"  counseling clinic, his schools, college, seminary, home school curriculum, publishing company and whatever else they've spun off.  

Yes, it appears they've doing end runs around the local permitting processes to ram through various cult projects.

As it happens, I may be seeing a normal (AFAIK) colleague who's originally from Moscow at a conference soon. Will have to ask the person about the Wilson cult & empire, if the opportunity arises.

[The Mother Dust]

8 hours ago, notkin said:

Other than that, it’s not a topic I willingly seek out. I was lucky enough to grow up only tangentially involved in the quiverfull movement (I was instead raised as an Evangelical), so now that I’ve extricated myself from the trauma of my own childhood, diving even deeper into the well of religious and spiritual abuse isn’t a huge interest of mine. I’m not opposed to it, and I’m very glad this forum and places like Patheos exist, because they not only help to expose these abusers/abuses but can also be a gathering place for survivors.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that I feel separate enough from the experiences of dominionist survivors to not claim it as my own experience but also having been a victim of my own religious trauma, not divorced enough from that experience to have ever had the desire to really dive into a lot of that stuff. I’m not sure if that makes any sense—it’s a bit of a difficult sentiment to fully articulate.

 

I understand what you are saying.  Your feelings about it make sense, IMO.  My fascination stems from the mirror/opposite, I was raised in a mostly secular house, we celebrated Christmas and got chocolate on Easter, but that's about all the attention religion got in my family.  My parents weren't raving atheists or anything, the subject of religion, pro or con, just hardly ever came up.  My sister and I were told we could be whatever we wanted.  Younger, sillier me, thought every American woman around my age had the same experience.  As I got older and through tv and the internet became more aware of fundamentalism, I was shocked to discover there were women in this country who voluntarily subjugated themselves, as it seemed to me at the time.  I had to discover more about it. Then I found FJ and my eyes were opened to alot. I lurked a looooong time before joining, but i'm glad I finally did.

[VVV]

I found "Jeff" Botkin's junior high yearbook pictures on ancestry dot com. Judging from the location of the school, he grew up fairly near the University of Tulsa. I have family in that area; you could hardly get more middle class, middle America, than that. "Marxist home," my ass.

Edited October 24, 2019 by VVV
"than" not "then," sheesh

[CyborgKin]

My first exposure to the Botkins (well, the ofGeoff Botkins) was their Homeschool Dropouts video.  The sisters in particular really creeped me out with their Stepfording.  (Actually that was what made me look them up and rediscover FJ.  I'd previously once briefly visited after some friends showed off some 17KaC episodes.)

So it's kinda nice to see that someone a little closer to them confirms seeing the same thing.

It's a pity really.  With a different father they'd more than likely be happy in new families of their own by now.

[notkin]

8 hours ago, VVV said:

I found "Jeff" Botkin's junior high yearbook pictures on ancestry dot com. Judging from the location of the school, he grew up fairly near the University of Tulsa. I have family in that area; you could hardly get more middle class, middle America, than that. "Marxist home," my ass.

The family home was a few miles from TU, in the Cherry Street district (if you're familiar with that area). Now it's a highly desirable area to live, but I will say in the 80s and 90s when I was a kid, it was a bit dicey, and I think it was comparable when my mother and her siblings grew up there. Not to at all say that Geoff's upbringing was anything other than fairly typical middle-class; my grandfather was a highly educated and respected Geologist who certainly made a good living, even if he lived an incredibly frugal life (the family home being a prime example; it was the house he grew up in as a child).

[Palimpsest]

@notkin, thanks for all your responses.  My deep sympathy to you and your immediate family.  But we don't get to pick our relatives, and Geoff is a horror.

Cindy Kunsman of Under Much Grace delved into Geoff's background quite a bit.  She makes the connection between Geoff and Vicky Botkin and the Jim McCotter "Blitz Movement" cult, later the Great Commission International.  She claimed to have many personal contacts to support her research. 

To be fair, Geoff wasn't the only college student vulnerable to cults like that, and apparently Greg Botkin also was recruited for a while.  The problem is that Geoff was apparently one of the most eager recruits.  It seems that when McCotter was turfed out of Great Commission, Geoff followed him.  It was only after he split with McCotter he developed his own little family cult along those lines, IMO.

Cindy K. also coined the term "Botkin Syndrome."  Woman doesn't have the courage of her convictions because she revised a lot of her stuff after E and AS challenged her by letter!  

I understand you can only speak to the family background and not recent developments, but I'd be interested in what you or your mother can say about Cindy's background research.  The best place to find it is probably here (but scroll down the page a bit for Geoff):

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/nolongerquivering/2019/02/why-who-is-geoffrey-botkin-is-not-going-anywhere/

And bless my soul.  Is it just me or does Cindy's prose get ever more convoluted by the day. 

 

[hoipolloi]

2 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

And bless my soul.  Is it just me or does Cindy's prose get ever more convoluted by the day. 

It does. She is also still deep in the fundie weeds herself so that doesn't help her to be more coherent. 

2 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Cindy Kunsman ...makes the connection between Geoff and Vicky Botkin and the Jim McCotter "Blitz Movement" cult, later the Great Commission International.  She claimed to have many personal contacts to support her research. 

It's not coincidence that the Geoff Botkins became enmeshed with McCotter while they were at OU as college students. The 1970s were a very fruitful time for those cults (c.f. Larry Tomczak & CJ Mahaney), and college campuses with all the young adults were among their most successful recruiting grounds. 

Re: bolded. Yes, let's not forget that Geoff & Victoria WENT TO COLLEGE, just like many other "do as we say not as we do" fundies who subsequently came to decry higher education, especially for their daughters.

[Columbia]

What is talking to Geoff like? I’ve heard a bunch of his speeches and sermons and he’s so hard to listen to. He rambles, repeats himself needlessly, is very easily led off topic, and shouts at random. Is he like that in person talking one-on-one?

[Palimpsest]

3 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

Re: bolded. Yes, let's not forget that Geoff & Victoria WENT TO COLLEGE, just like many other "do as we say not as we do" fundies who subsequently came to decry higher education, especially for their daughters.

I'm fairly sure they both dropped out before graduating.  Hard to keep up a decent GPA and working on the Great Commission at the same time.

 

[Nolongeroppressed8.4]

On 9/27/2019 at 7:35 PM, starfish said:

I predict Nattie Darnell will register for the conference in a ill-conceived plan to get back in the good graces of the

Botkins sisters..... a snarker can dream, right? 

As I heard he told their dad: either one will do, either one will dooooo! (Please know they ALL idolize musicals.....) ?

On 10/22/2019 at 8:09 PM, The Mother Dust said:

Thank you so much @notkin for talking with us.  Would you have any insight as to why the sisters are still single?  Do you know of any potential suitors that they might have had?

They both share Natty Darnell as a suitor. I heard “either one” was the answer after a long dad approval process was completed. ?

[danvillebelle]

28 minutes ago, Nolongeroppressed8.4 said:

They both share Natty Darnell as a suitor. I heard “either one” was the answer after a long dad approval process was completed. ?

Nothing makes a girl feel special and loved like knowing her suitor would be just as happy with her sister. ?

[Curious]

3 minutes ago, danvillebelle said:

Nothing makes a girl feel special and loved like knowing her suitor would be just as happy with her sister. ?

I suppose if you raise your kids to be essentially the same with very little to no individuality that is bound to happen, though.  The only difference between the Boktinettes (afaik) is their looks and I think both of them are quite lovely so it's not even like that is a dealbreaker with one of them.   Unless you prefer blondes, I guess...

[CyborgKin]

That's enmeshment, right?  Geoff never let them develop as separate people, so no wonder Natty didn't have a preference.

[raspberrymint]

What happened with Natty?  He couldn't win either one of them over?

[Howl]

Natty pings my gaydar.  Perhaps it really doesn't matter to him, because waaaaaaay deep down he'd prefer a woman.  Or not.  The dynamics in both families are so odd that it's truly difficult to know. 

[Palimpsest]

43 minutes ago, raspberrymint said:

What happened with Natty?  He couldn't win either one of them over?

Calling on @Nolongeroppressed8.4 for verification.  Although I have heard hints of this from others.

I think the story was that one Botkinette sort of fancied Natty and one did not.  But when Natty passed the test but told Geoff that either one would do ... the one that slightly fancied him withdrew in justifiable umbrage.  I mean, are you serious, asshole?

And IMO eternal singlehood, even under Geoff the Horrible, is probably better than being married to Natty D,  

So, probably good call, Botkinette.  But there are possibly other far more decent guys out there than Natty. 

If you can rebel, shuck off Geoff's malignancy, and work a tiny bit at being human.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Palimpsest

[Nolongeroppressed8.4]

2 hours ago, raspberrymint said:

What happened with Natty?  He couldn't win either one of them over?

I heard he was told he really would have to pick (this is well before the Lourdes DP stuff) and he decided on one but she said no so he said the other one and she said no. LMAO Imagine being asked SECOND. The humiliation. But pretty sure they escaped a worse fate than their dad has been. Maybe? 

1 minute ago, Nolongeroppressed8.4 said:

I heard he was told he really would have to pick (this is well before the Lourdes DP stuff) and he decided on one but she said no so he said the other one and she said no. LMAO Imagine being asked SECOND. The humiliation. But pretty sure they escaped a worse fate than their dad has been. Maybe? 

And yes — he asked the wrong one first. But then it was too late for the one who was considering him suitable enough after he passed the Geoff interrogation process. Or. So I heard. Oh I did hear there were essays and lengthy questionnaires required about everything you can imagine in order to gain approval. Took months — just to blow it (pun intended). 

2 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Calling on @Nolongeroppressed8.4 for verification.  Although I have heard hints of this from others.

I think the story was that one Botkinette sort of fancied Natty and one did not.  But when Natty passed the test but told Geoff that either one would do ... the one that slightly fancied him withdrew in justifiable umbrage.  I mean, are you serious, asshole?

And IMO eternal singlehood, even under Geoff the Horrible, is probably better than being married to Natty D,  

So, probably good call, Botkinette.  But there are possibly other far more decent guys out there than Natty. 

If you can rebel, shuck off Geoff's malignancy, and work a tiny bit at being human.

 

[raspberrymint]

Does this mean at least one sister, on some level, doesn't think everything her dad says is gold?

[notkin]

I may be mistaken, but I don’t think Geoff’s original motive (or at least one of the main factors) in moving his family to New Zealand has ever been discussed. 

Remember when y2k was going to wipe out civilization as we knew it and we’d all be reduced to trying to survive a dystopian nightmare devoid of all the modern technology and conveniences we’d grown so dependent on? Well, I certainly remember when a certain uncle was so convinced of this impending calamity that he not only moved his entire family halfway around the world, but also had the decency to write a book warning the rest of us of what we were about to face. Except maybe he actually had some doubts about the whole thing, since it was conveniently written under the nom de plume of Julian Gregori (so clever, this uncle of mine).

 https://www.amazon.com/What-Will-Become-Counting-Down/dp/1892709007

I’ve never read the book, although I’m fairly confident there’s still a copy sitting on my mother’s bookshelf. However, the blatant fear mongering and extremist action of moving your wife and seven children to New Zealand because it’s ostensibly safer in a less populated country post-apocalypse was my first real clue into how wacky my uncle actually is. Everything since has just confirmed it.

7 hours ago, raspberrymint said:

Does this mean at least one sister, on some level, doesn't think everything her dad says is gold?

I can neither confirm nor deny this, but if so, my gut feeling is that it’s Elizabeth.

9 hours ago, Nolongeroppressed8.4 said:

I heard he was told he really would have to pick (this is well before the Lourdes DP stuff) and he decided on one but she said no so he said the other one and she said no. LMAO Imagine being asked SECOND. The humiliation. But pretty sure they escaped a worse fate than their dad has been. Maybe? 

And yes — he asked the wrong one first. But then it was too late for the one who was considering him suitable enough after he passed the Geoff interrogation process. Or. So I heard. Oh I did hear there were essays and lengthy questionnaires required about everything you can imagine in order to gain approval. Took months — just to blow it (pun intended). 

 

Very, very interesting. I wonder if my mom heard anything about this, and if so, I can tease any details out of her.

[Howl]

@notkin, just this moment I realized that I'm now curious about how Geoff has supported his family all these years.  Has he ever had a "real" job or an occupation? 

How did he raise the funds to move 9 people to New Zealand and then live there?  Presumably, he had to show some means of support and existing funds to get a visa status that was more than a tourist visa. 

Also, Dear FJ readers, my Natty post was an epic fail. It should have read: 

Perhaps it really doesn't matter to him, because waaaaaaay deep down he'd prefer a woman man. 

My sense was that he was thinking, I'll just find a very beautiful woman, doesn't matter who, and maybe that will work out. 

What's kind of sad about the entire thing is that he was not allowed enough interaction with the sisters to get a sense that one of them was at least somewhat attracted to him or maybe he's just an oblivious twit. 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Howl

[notkin]

13 hours ago, danvillebelle said:

Nothing makes a girl feel special and loved like knowing her suitor would be just as happy with her sister. ?

It’s a real shame there’s no overlap between polygamist Mormonism and Dominionism. Think of just how full your quiver could be if you had multiple wives to treat as brood mares.
Joining and running cults is in my dna; maybe I should embrace my destiny and start my own hybrid movement. It’s a Venn diagram of overpopulation and repression just waiting to happen!

10 minutes ago, Howl said:

@notkin, just this moment I realized that I'm now curious about how Geoff has supported his family all these years.  Has he ever has a "real" job or an occupation? 

How did he raise the funds to move 9 people to New Zealand and then live there?  Presumably, he had to show some means of support and existing funds to get a visa status that was more than a tourist visa. 

He’s never had a real job. When I was growing up, he held the nebulous title of filmmaker. But as those of us who actually considered going to film school know, that doesn’t usually pay the bills. Even before he sought to be in the public eye he was always fairly secretive and that was something I never understood myself (how he supported his family) as a kid.

It’s conjecture, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there was some family money involved in the move—I’d prefer to not get into details since a). it’s based on some unconfirmed comments I’m a bit hazy on and b). the larger breakdown of that would require me giving out more information on my family than I feel is appropriate.

Edited October 25, 2019 by notkin

[Howl]

3 minutes ago, notkin said:

It’s a real shame there’s no overlap between polygamist Mormonism and Dominionism.

Oh, I'm absolutely certain there are isolated pockets of this, because, ya know, PATRIARCHS.  BIBLE. 

I wandered across a discussion of various arrangements somewhere -- should wives have separate houses, separate bedrooms, or hey, we'll all just sleep in the same king-sized bed, because the more the merrier. 

Also, this reminds me.  FJ does have a section on fundamentalist Mormons, which I can't find at the moment.  

I find the dissolution of the FLDS and subsequent (at least partial) resurrection of Hilldale/Short Creek as a viable community to be fascinating.  

Now, back to our regular Botkin (now with notkin!) programming.