Jump to content
  • Sky
  • Blueberry
  • Slate
  • Blackcurrant
  • Watermelon
  • Strawberry
  • Orange
  • Banana
  • Apple
  • Emerald
  • Chocolate
  • Charcoal
Palimpsest

Botkin Alert. They are back on the conference circuit!

Recommended Posts

VVV
9 hours ago, Howl said:

Maybe some of you musically inclined folks can confirm this.  I live in Austin, TX, a city with both tons of musicians as well as a center of  techy computer-y stuff.  I was listening to NPR awhile back and a local musician commented that many, many people in music also work in computer and computer related fields, the implication being that an aptitude for music translates well for certain aspects of computer work. 

Also, I very much appreciated the responses about how incredibly competitive the music scene is in Nashville.  Love it when elements of the fj hive mind respond with great insight and direct experience on a topic. 

Music aptitude and math aptitude are said to be in the same part of the brain. Anecdotally, when I was double degree at Oberlin (violin and math), the most populated college major for the double degree folks was the math major. 

5 hours ago, quiversR4hunting said:

This Nashville music talk makes me feel very, very sorry for K-12 school music teachers. 

Why? If they like what they do, K-12 music educators have a pretty good gig. Teacher pay (not great but better than some professional orchestras--certainly better than mine), teacher benefits and job security, plus many if not most of the instrumental teachers are teaching private lessons of their own on the side and gigging in some combination of weddings and freeway philharmonics.

My retirement depends on staying healthy enough to teach private lessons up to the morning of my funeral, and making sure Mr. VVV (a retired teacher) stays happy. Mr. VVV's pension is not bad. I will be fortunate indeed if the AFM pension fund hasn't gone completely down the toilet by the time I retire.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MamaJunebug
10 minutes ago, VVV said:

Music aptitude and math aptitude are said to be in the same part of the brain. Anecdotally, when I was double degree at Oberlin (violin and math), the most populated college major for the double degree folks was the math major. 

Took the words right out off of my keyboard. Math has also been likened to a language and my mathy [?] friends tend to be good in at least two languages, if not fluently bilingual. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quiversR4hunting
9 hours ago, VVV said:

Why? If they like what they do, K-12 music educators have a pretty good gig. Teacher pay (not great but better than some professional orchestras--certainly better than mine), teacher benefits and job security, plus many if not most of the instrumental teachers are teaching private lessons of their own on the side and gigging in some combination of weddings and freeway philharmonics.

My retirement depends on staying healthy enough to teach private lessons up to the morning of my funeral, and making sure Mr. VVV (a retired teacher) stays happy. Mr. VVV's pension is not bad. I will be fortunate indeed if the AFM pension fund hasn't gone completely down the toilet by the time I retire.

I too come from a teaching family. Majority of my family were teachers or currently teach (I even have a teaching degree in business, but that isn't what I do currently). I think teaching is a great profession. I think teachers get far too little credit for all they are required to do with so many kids. 

The reason I feel sorry for the Nashville music teachers is because more kids come from a musical family and the teacher may get more flack from the parents that "know it all". And the parents may undermine the music teacher because "the teacher couldn't hack it in the music industry." People still say that horrible saying: "those who can, do; those who can’t, teach." 

  • Upvote 3
  • Sad 1
  • I Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
VVV
6 hours ago, quiversR4hunting said:

I too come from a teaching family. Majority of my family were teachers or currently teach (I even have a teaching degree in business, but that isn't what I do currently). I think teaching is a great profession. I think teachers get far too little credit for all they are required to do with so many kids. 

The reason I feel sorry for the Nashville music teachers is because more kids come from a musical family and the teacher may get more flack from the parents that "know it all". And the parents may undermine the music teacher because "the teacher couldn't hack it in the music industry." People still say that horrible saying: "those who can, do; those who can’t, teach." 

Oh. FWIW I doubt that much if any of that is happening. Most professional performers understand that K-12 music teachers are in a different profession with a different skill set, not working in consolation prize jobs. And I doubt very much that there is a statistically noticeably greater number of musicians' kids in the schools. If anything, professional musicians tend to have fewer kids than the average, and many that do have kids are hardly enthusiastic about their offspring following in their footsteps.

Edited by VVV

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nolongeroppressed8.4
On 10/31/2019 at 4:10 AM, hoipolloi said:

It is a waste. IIRC, her family* (but not her) was featured in Return of the Daughters (ROTD). Between them & her in-laws, Audri never had a chance.

The Christian writer & speaker, Rebecca Davis, has just written a blog post on ROTD after reading about Rachael Denhollander's recollection of having to watch it at some Christian family camp in 2008:

ETA: * Nope - it's not Audri's family (the Verniers) in ROTD, but another one, the Valentis. The Verniers are pretty damned fundie, though, and probably didn't encourage Audri to go any further with her music.

OMG. That's basically um so we made a typo but like we still think what we think. KILL ME. The thing that ultimately always comes to my mind about most of these people is that we just haven't gotten anyone to come out against them yet. After the whole Bradrick! fiasco, the DPWIAT fiasco, Natty Darnell's obsession with weirdness, the Botkrazyin - are any of these people just skating by without getting caught? I suspect so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Happy
OyHiOh
4 hours ago, VVV said:

Oh. FWIW I doubt that much if any of that is happening. Most professional performers understand that K-12 music teachers are in a different profession with a different skill set, not working in consolation prize jobs. And I doubt very much that there is a statistically noticeably greater number of musicians' kids in the schools. If anything, professional musicians tend to have fewer kids than the average, and many that do have kids are hardly enthusiastic about their offspring following in their footsteps.

My own father, professionally trained at Interlochen, New England Conservatory, and Northwestern actively and purposefully discouraged me from studying music at anything more than semi-serious hobbiest level.  I am a very good musician . . . as a hobbiest.  I do not have the personality or drive to work in the industry.  I'm still nursing a small grudge at my dad for telling me he'd support any college major I wanted, except a music degree, but moreso, I'm glad for that insight and encouragement away from music.  I would have absolutely thrived as a degree candidate but the real world of the music industry . . .  not so much.  One of my cousins went the music teacher (middle school) plus private lessons and gigs route.  He loves it.  It would eat me up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JermajestyDuggar
22 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

Took the words right out off of my keyboard. Math has also been likened to a language and my mathy [?] friends tend to be good in at least two languages, if not fluently bilingual. 

No wonder I’ve always been average or below average at math, music, and Spanish! 

Benjamin Botkin posted on Instagram that they are moving closer to Nashville. So it does seem that they are leaving the Botkin borg. Someone said earlier this year that they left them family church too. Run Botkin run!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Petronella
9 hours ago, OyHiOh said:

I would have absolutely thrived as a degree candidate but the real world of the music industry . . .  not so much.

What a wise observation! I hadn’t thought about making that studies v career distinction before.

That said, I do think there can be enormous value in studying the arts, even if you don’t intend to work in them (or have that intention at the time but decide later not to work in them). I have a conservatory degree in a subject I’ve never subsequently worked in, and the things I learned and the way I grew are useful to me every day.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Howl
12 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Someone said earlier this year that they left the family church too.

That must have been an awkward conversation with Geoff.  

This is fascinating on so many levels.  Showing any independence in an enmeshed family is huge, but when that family dynamic is mashed up with Patriarchy...wowza.  And when that Patriarch runs the family church out of the living room...

And when that moving away from the Borg (figuratively as well as literally) benefits the son's WIFE and possibly at that wife's behest.  Daaaayum. 

Idle speculation, based on nothing: I have to wonder if, within the family dynamics, Ben has always been a bit on the outside? Like maybe not Geoff's most very favorite son?  And this has allowed him the tiniest bit of independent thought and led to choosing a wife who is a bit more independent? 

Anyway, will be interesting to watch how this plays out.  Wishing them the best, which for me is defined as: use family planning rather than subscribe to rampant forced fecundity, abandon patriarchy and complementarianism, learn to think and live independently, and so forth. 

Edited by Howl

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JermajestyDuggar
29 minutes ago, Howl said:

That must have been an awkward conversation with Geoff.  

This is fascinating on so many levels.  Showing any independence in an enmeshed family is huge, but when that family dynamic is mashed up with Patriarchy...wowza.  And when that Patriarch runs the family church out of the living room...

And when that moving away from the Borg (figuratively as well as literally) benefits the son's WIFE and possibly at that wife's behest.  Daaaayum. 

Idle speculation, based on nothing: I have to wonder if, within the family dynamics, Ben has always been a bit on the outside? Like maybe not Geoff's most very favorite son?  And this has allowed him the tiniest bit of independent thought and led to choosing a wife who is a bit more independent? 

Anyway, will be interesting to watch how this plays out.  Wishing them the best, which for me is defined as: use family planning rather than subscribe to rampant forced fecundity, abandon patriarchy and complementarianism, learn to think and live independently, and so forth. 

I think their youngest is around 4. So maybe they are not letting god decide on their family size.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
hoipolloi
3 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

So maybe they are not letting god decide on their family size.

Or maybe they're using the brains & common sense the good lord gave them.

 

  • Upvote 4
  • Haha 2
  • I Agree 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Happy
OyHiOh
12 hours ago, Petronella said:

What a wise observation! I hadn’t thought about making that studies v career distinction before.

That said, I do think there can be enormous value in studying the arts, even if you don’t intend to work in them (or have that intention at the time but decide later not to work in them). I have a conservatory degree in a subject I’ve never subsequently worked in, and the things I learned and the way I grew are useful to me every day.

I did English/creative writing instead, with a "humanities" minor.  A little bit of everything!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
VVV
14 hours ago, Petronella said:

What a wise observation! I hadn’t thought about making that studies v career distinction before.

That said, I do think there can be enormous value in studying the arts, even if you don’t intend to work in them (or have that intention at the time but decide later not to work in them). I have a conservatory degree in a subject I’ve never subsequently worked in, and the things I learned and the way I grew are useful to me every day.

This is exactly why I am unconcerned about my daughter's choice to pursue a performance degree (thankfully on a different instrument from violin). She got into one of the top-ranked U.S. music schools and is working extremely hard. Whether she ends up with a job on her very competitive instrument or ends up going in a different direction, I feel confident that nothing she is learning right now will be wasted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Waffle Time
Hane

@VVV, when my daughter decided to major in vocal performance, I told her, “Just graduate capable of supporting yourself.” In community theater, she met an older woman with Broadway experience who gave her the straight dope on what it’s like to try to support yourself as a performer, and had decided to do something else to support herself and perform as her avocation.

My daughter knew she’d want to get married and have a family, so she became an elementary school music teacher and does community theater and paid side gigs (professional choir, churches, weddings, funerals, etc.).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Wine time!
nokidsmom
On 11/2/2019 at 8:49 AM, Howl said:

This is fascinating on so many levels.  Showing any independence in an enmeshed family is huge, but when that family dynamic is mashed up with Patriarchy...wowza.  And when that Patriarch runs the family church out of the living room...

IME, yes it is huge, but given the extreme enmeshment and rampant emotional incest in that family, this probably rocked Daddy's Geoff's world 1000x over.  

On 11/2/2019 at 8:49 AM, Howl said:

Idle speculation, based on nothing: I have to wonder if, within the family dynamics, Ben has always been a bit on the outside? Like maybe not Geoff's most very favorite son?  And this has allowed him the tiniest bit of independent thought and led to choosing a wife who is a bit more independent? 

Interesting theory and if true, as much is it may have hurt Ben at times, it gave him the gift of ultimately getting away from the Borg.   But make no mistake, it has to be a blow to Geoff because even if Ben was not a favorite son, he would be still be required to remain under Daddy's  control.   So many of these fundie families are horribly enmeshed and losing a kid to the outside world is a severe blow.  My family was not fundie or anywhere near Botkin levels of enmeshment but I never was forgiven for thinking for myself and forging my own life.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
starfish
On 11/1/2019 at 8:09 PM, JermajestyDuggar said:

No wonder I’ve always been average or below average at math, music, and Spanish! 

Benjamin Botkin posted on Instagram that they are moving closer to Nashville. So it does seem that they are leaving the Botkin borg. Someone said earlier this year that they left them family church too. Run Botkin run!

Free Ben! Free Audri! 

On 11/2/2019 at 4:04 AM, Petronella said:

What a wise observation! I hadn’t thought about making that studies v career distinction before.

That said, I do think there can be enormous value in studying the arts, even if you don’t intend to work in them (or have that intention at the time but decide later not to work in them). I have a conservatory degree in a subject I’ve never subsequently worked in, and the things I learned and the way I grew are useful to me every day.

At my alma mater, two of our most generous donors are a married couple who both majored in music. They now

own a chain of liquor stores and have proved to be savvy business people. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Columbia
On 11/4/2019 at 2:12 PM, nokidsmom said:

IME, yes it is huge, but given the extreme enmeshment and rampant emotional incest in that family, this probably rocked Daddy's Geoff's world 1000x over.  

I would have given a great deal to see that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JermajestyDuggar
3 hours ago, Columbia said:

I would have given a great deal to see that. 

I kind of hate how the “high up fundies” can put out a ton of info detailing their perfect family and perfect family functions but when anyone steps out of line, they clam up. I understand wanting to only put out the good stuff. Lots of people do that on social media. But when you sell your way of life as the perfect way, I feel like you sort of have a duty to talk about it when things go wrong. That’s when I keep my fingers crossed that the grown kid spills the beans. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Unimpressed
CyborgKin

Well there's always Lucas's stream.

Looks like he wasn't on last week but he put in 3 hours of Modern Warfare Spec Ops yesterday.

And 2 weeks ago he did something he calls an 'ultra throwback' with Noah: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/498693388

I don't have time to sit through hours of Lucas gaming and talking about guns to see if he says anything interesting.  (Okay I watched almost half an hour the other week but that was partly helped by me never having seen Apex Legends before.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Howl
10 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

But when you sell your way of life as the perfect way, I feel like you sort of have a duty to talk about it when things go wrong.

This aspect of fundydom chafes my chahungas*.  And not only do they clam up, they pretend that NOTHING HAPPENED.  Erika Shupe? Beall? Lisa Pennington? Scottie Brown? And so many others.  Insight from them on how the changes came about, how it changed their beliefs, where they are now would be so useful and of course, fascinating, and oh, so snark worthy. 

*I just made up this word but it's a thing.  What thing it is, I can't quite determine from google.  

  • Upvote 9
  • I Agree 3
  • Love 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TruthHolder911

They’re definitely NOT thriving. They’re living off of student loans.(Lisa’s back in school at St Francis, Fort Wayne ) 

The only thing they got was another 30 day extension. 

These two are crooks, terrible parents , scam artists, and scary. 

they make $1/book sold, and lets face it.. they aren’t selling. 

Edited by TruthHolder911

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MamaJunebug
23 minutes ago, TruthHolder911 said:

They’re definitely NOT thriving. They’re living off of student loans.(Lisa’s back in school at St Francis, Fort Wayne ) 

The only thing they got was another 30 day extension. 

These two are crooks, terrible parents , scam artists, and scary. 

they make $1/book sold, and lets face it.. they aren’t selling. 

I think you meant this for the Spanky & Lisa thread? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Columbia
On 10/25/2019 at 6:02 AM, notkin said:

Remember when y2k was going to wipe out civilization as we knew it and we’d all be reduced to trying to survive a dystopian nightmare devoid of all the modern technology and conveniences we’d grown so dependent on? Well, I certainly remember when a certain uncle was so convinced of this impending calamity that he not only moved his entire family halfway around the world, but also had the decency to write a book warning the rest of us of what we were about to face. Except maybe he actually had some doubts about the whole thing, since it was conveniently written under the nom de plume of Julian Gregori (so clever, this uncle of mine).

 https://www.amazon.com/What-Will-Become-Counting-Down/dp/1892709007

I’ve never read the book, although I’m fairly confident there’s still a copy sitting on my mother’s bookshelf. However, the blatant fear mongering and extremist action of moving your wife and seven children to New Zealand because it’s ostensibly safer in a less populated country post-apocalypse was my first real clue into how wacky my uncle actually is. Everything since has just confirmed it.

I finally got ahold of a copy through my library! I haven’t had a chance to sit down and read it yet, but just skimming through it there are a lot of passages that read like Geoff talks. I remember so little about Y2K because I was very young when it happened, so I’m especially curious to see what the fear mongering will play on. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Marian the Librarian

Bumping to report that Lucas Botkin has Instagrammed the official opening of T-Rex Arms' new facility. They pray over the guns n' ammo every day at noon... 🤢

Screen Shot 2019-11-20 at 8.45.40 AM.png

Screen Shot 2019-11-20 at 8.45.15 AM.png

  • Disgust 1
  • WTF 7
  • Thank You 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
VVV
1 hour ago, Marian the Librarian said:

Bumping to report that Lucas Botkin has Instagrammed the official opening of T-Rex Arms' new facility. They pray over the guns n' ammo every day at noon... 🤢

Screen Shot 2019-11-20 at 8.45.40 AM.png

Screen Shot 2019-11-20 at 8.45.15 AM.png

Jesus wept.

  • Upvote 3
  • I Agree 4
  • Love 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.