Botkin Alert. They are back on the conference circuit!

[notkin]

[mention=28491]notkin[/mention], thanks for all your responses.  My deep sympathy to you and your immediate family.  But we don't get to pick our relatives, and Geoff is a horror.
Cindy Kunsman of Under Much Grace delved into Geoff's background quite a bit.  She makes the connection between Geoff and Vicky Botkin and the Jim McCotter "Blitz Movement" cult, later the Great Commission International.  She claimed to have many personal contacts to support her research. 
To be fair, Geoff wasn't the only college student vulnerable to cults like that, and apparently Greg Botkin also was recruited for a while.  The problem is that Geoff was apparently one of the most eager recruits.  It seems that when McCotter was turfed out of Great Commission, Geoff followed him.  It was only after he split with McCotter he developed his own little family cult along those lines, IMO.
Cindy K. also coined the term "Botkin Syndrome."  Woman doesn't have the courage of her convictions because she revised a lot of her stuff after E and AS challenged her by letter!  
I understand you can only speak to the family background and not recent developments, but I'd be interested in what you or your mother can say about Cindy's background research.  The best place to find it is probably here (but scroll down the page a bit for Geoff):
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/nolongerquivering/2019/02/why-who-is-geoffrey-botkin-is-not-going-anywhere/
And bless my soul.  Is it just me or does Cindy's prose get ever more convoluted by the day.  [emoji20]
 

@palimpsest (love your name btw; it’s my favourite word) I can try to get more info on this but it most likely won’t be easy. My mom is fairly cagey any time I ask her questions about Geoff and his background, since she knows I think he’s a snake and wouldn’t hesitate to spill anything and everything I know. I’ll report back if I can come up with anything.

It's not coincidence that the Geoff Botkins became enmeshed with McCotter while they were at OU as college students. The 1970s were a very fruitful time for those cults (c.f. Larry Tomczak & CJ Mahaney), and college campuses with all the young adults were among their most successful recruiting grounds. 
Re: bolded. Yes, let's not forget that Geoff & Victoria WENT TO COLLEGE, just like many other "do as we say not as we do" fundies who subsequently came to decry higher education, especially for their daughters.

Unfortunately, their denouncement of higher education, at least for women, isn’t completely different than my own mother’s experience at the hands of my grandfather. She desperately wanted to attend college but he refused to pay for her, since she was a woman. She attended St. John’s in Santa Fe for 1 or 2 semesters before she was forced to drop out due to financial reasons. From what she’s said, he didn’t have the same qualms about financially supporting his sons’ educations.

No matter what Geoff may claim about his Marxist upbringing, the roots of his patriarchal ideology began at home, under the tutelage and example set by his own father.

[The Mother Dust]

@notkin   Do you happen to know how old the sisters were when they recorded the audio here https://westernconservatory.com/store/free the one called Dominion Oriented Femininity?  I get the sense it was before the fall of DPIART/Vision Forum.   I started to listen to it last night, and had to stop half way through, I might listen to the rest today.  As much as I enjoy hate-watching/listening, even I can only tolerate so much shit in my ears at a time.  

Also, to be real petty, I realized that Anna Sophia's voice sounds ALOT like this super annoying co-worker that I have.....omg...no wonder my co-worker grates on me so much.  hehe . (She's not fundy though)

[notkin]

What is talking to Geoff like? I’ve heard a bunch of his speeches and sermons and he’s so hard to listen to. He rambles, repeats himself needlessly, is very easily led off topic, and shouts at random. Is he like that in person talking one-on-one?

I just forced myself to listen to a few minutes of his speeches as a reminder. It lines up with what I remember, so the answer is yes. What’s uncanny is how much he and my mother sound alike in terms of speech patterns and cadence, as well as their propensity towards rambling and going off-topic.

I will say that I enjoyed some of the time I spent with my uncle as a kid. He wasn’t as stern as my grandfather, at least then, and he would do fun stuff with us like help us make short movies. He was definitely odd, though. One distinct memory is when he had to have a large lump removed from his head and then proudly brought the contents home in a specimen jar to show off to everyone. I seem to remember all the other adults, particularly my grandparents, being fairly put off by that one.

[quiversR4hunting]

1 hour ago, Howl said:

Oh, I'm absolutely certain there are isolated pockets of this, because, ya know, PATRIARCHS.  BIBLE. 

I wandered across a discussion of various arrangements somewhere -- should wives have separate houses, separate bedrooms, or hey, we'll all just sleep in the same king-sized bed, because the more the merrier. 

Also, this reminds me.  FJ does have a section on fundamentalist Mormons, which I can't find at the moment.  

I find the dissolution of the FLDS and subsequent (at least partial) resurrection of Hilldale/Short Creek as a viable community to be fascinating.  

Now, back to our regular Botkin (now with notkin!) programming.  

We do! It is under Family discussion now - https://www.freejinger.org/forum/312-quiverfull-of-fundamentalist-mormonism-including-polygamy-and-warren-jeffs/ 

I follow all the FLDS/The Order stuff and none of the TV show family. 

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, notkin said:

He’s never had a real job. When I was growing up, he held the nebulous title of filmmaker. But as those of us who actually considered going to film school know, that doesn’t usually pay the bills. Even before he sought to be in the public eye he was always fairly secretive and that was something I never understood myself (how he supported his family) as a kid.

It’s conjecture, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there was some family money involved in the move—I’d prefer to not get into details since a). it’s based on some unconfirmed comments I’m a bit hazy on and b). the larger breakdown of that would require me giving out more information on my family than I feel is appropriate.

This is why the McCotter connection is important.  If Geoff and Victoria were recruited into "The Blitz" in the 1970s, then they were also  part of GCAC which then became GCI in the 80s.  It counts as an abusive church by anyone's standards.

McCotter resigned (or was booted) from CGI in 1986, probably taking a lot of money with him.  He had already dabbled in the media with GCI.  Now an entrepreneur, he invested in various publishing and media businesses in Florida.

Then McCotter took off for New Zealand.  At the same time as Geoff Botkin, and I do not think that was coincidence.  It's not clear to me whether Geoff "worked" for any McCotter's enterprises prior to moving to New Zealand, but perhaps he freelanced with them as a "film maker."

However, Geoff  was certainly involved in McCotter's the Citizen newspaper and Canterbury TV station.  Both of which failed.  There was a big staff blow-up in the early 2000s, and Geoff scarpered back to the US to hook up with VF and start the Western Conservatory of Crap.

McCotter moved on to other nefarious things.   He's truly  as dirty as the day is long.   More info:   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_McCotter

[notkin]

[mention=28491]notkin[/mention]   Do you happen to know how old the sisters were when they recorded the audio here https://westernconservatory.com/store/free the one called Dominion Oriented Femininity?  I get the sense it was before the fall of DPIART/Vision Forum.   I started to listen to it last night, and had to stop half way through, I might listen to the rest today.  As much as I enjoy hate-watching/listening, even I can only tolerate so much shit in my ears at a time.  
Also, to be real petty, I realized that Anna Sophia's voice sounds ALOT like this super annoying co-worker that I have.....omg...no wonder my co-worker grates on me so much.  hehe . (She's not fundy though)

Their message is just so timeless that it’s hard to say...BARF.

My best guess would also be that it was before the fall of Vision Forum. Possibly 2010-2013ish, which would make them anywhere from 23/25-26/28. Just a guess, however.

[Nolongeroppressed8.4]

3 hours ago, notkin said:

It’s a real shame there’s no overlap between polygamist Mormonism and Dominionism. Think of just how full your quiver could be if you had multiple wives to treat as brood mares.
Joining and running cults is in my dna; maybe I should embrace my destiny and start my own hybrid movement. It’s a Venn diagram of overpopulation and repression just waiting to happen!

He’s never had a real job. When I was growing up, he held the nebulous title of filmmaker. But as those of us who actually considered going to film school know, that doesn’t usually pay the bills. Even before he sought to be in the public eye he was always fairly secretive and that was something I never understood myself (how he supported his family) as a kid.

It’s conjecture, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there was some family money involved in the move—I’d prefer to not get into details since a). it’s based on some unconfirmed comments I’m a bit hazy on and b). the larger breakdown of that would require me giving out more information on my family than I feel is appropriate.

We all know they had a couple wealthy donors at VF that handed out large amounts to the crowd of line-dancin wide-stancin whackos. 
 

Do any of you remember that DP was actually sort of on this Y2K New Zealand takeover too? I remember it being like We can go there and take it over and make it the new America, the new conservative Christian place to be for cult mongers. 

[Palimpsest]

46 minutes ago, Nolongeroppressed8.4 said:

We all know they had a couple wealthy donors at VF that handed out large amounts to the crowd of line-dancin wide-stancin whackos. 
 

Do any of you remember that DP was actually sort of on this Y2K New Zealand takeover too? I remember it being like We can go there and take it over and make it the new America, the new conservative Christian place to be for cult mongers. 

I knew Jim Leininger was a major funder.  I'm not sure we have confirmed any other major money bags but I'm sure they existed.

I vaguely remember someone discussing Geoff Botkin trying to persuade DP, Scottie Brown, and a few other people to go back to New Zealand with him around 2006.  It may have been on SSB. 

I don't think the Kiwis would have welcomed them after the McCotter debacle.  They are too smart for that, although IBLP has a foothold there.  New Zealand has their own homegrown Fundies.

BTW,  this is the extremely detailed story of what went down in New Zealand in 2001-3,  showing the McCotter and Geoff Botkin business partnership.   http://www.gcxweb.org/Articles/NAndS-04-2002-a.aspx

Quote

But neither James (Jim) Douglas McCotter, 57, nor fellow American and business partner Geoff Botkin were fazed. Nor were the more than 40 New Zealand staff recruited early in 2001 to produce the paper. Seven months on from launching, despite all expectations, the Christchurch Citizen is still there.

 

[Marian the Librarian]

"Julian Gregori?" Really?? That was a great morning wake-up laugh, thank you!   For more, check out the wall o' text excerpt and reviews of "What Will Become of Us?" included in the Amazon link @notkin provided. Oy, the bloviation!

I do remember reading, when I first joined FJ in the mid-2000s, that Y2K panic was what drove Geoff to up stakes and flee to NZ, but the source is lost in my memory bank. I will try to dig it up.

[Personal aside: I've been reading FJ on my phone while camping in hospital, taking care of Mr. MtL, the proud recipient of a new titanium hip joint. Haven't been able to post until now, but want to say how much I appreciate the thoughtful and entertaining contributions to this thread, and others. Sorry for the aside, and back to regular programming!]

 

[Nolongeroppressed8.4]

4 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

I knew Jim Leininger was a major funder.  I'm not sure we have confirmed any other major money bags but I'm sure they existed.

I vaguely remember someone discussing Geoff Botkin trying to persuade DP, Scottie Brown, and a few other people to go back to New Zealand with him around 2006.  It may have been on SSB. 

I don't think the Kiwis would have welcomed them after the McCotter debacle.  They are too smart for that, although IBLP has a foothold there.  New Zealand has their own homegrown Fundies.

BTW,  this is the extremely detailed story of what went down in New Zealand in 2001-3,  showing the McCotter and Geoff Botkin business partnership.   http://www.gcxweb.org/Articles/NAndS-04-2002-a.aspx

 

VFM continued to accept donations: $2.6 million in contributions and grants in 2011, and $1.3 million in 2012, according to IRS filings.... that’s only one year from a World magazine article. Guide star would show all the details — but you also need to remember that they were smart and had their “ministry side” while the catalog, films, etc were all done by the for-profit side where they didn’t have to report.... who knows how they contrived it but I can guarantee you that a non-profit and a for-profit running side by side with the same people is going to have had some interesting IRS loopholes going on in their favor. 

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, Nolongeroppressed8.4 said:

VFM continued to accept donations: $2.6 million in contributions and grants in 2011, and $1.3 million in 2012, according to IRS filings.... that’s only one year from a World magazine article. Guide star would show all the details — but you also need to remember that they were smart and had their “ministry side” while the catalog, films, etc were all done by the for-profit side where they didn’t have to report.... who knows how they contrived it but I can guarantee you that a non-profit and a for-profit running side by side with the same people is going to have had some interesting IRS loopholes going on in their favor. 

We had a lot of fun with that.  Holy cow, was it really 5 years ago ...  I think it was @hoipolloi who brought over the Form 990s. 

So much conflict of interest between VFM and VFI.  I think my favorite was the J Park radio program.  VFI  sold it to VFM for $670,000.

When the BoD liquidated the VFM assets they had to practically give J Park away.  And I swear Dougie ran off with a helluva lot of expensive VFM camera equipment.

[Nolongeroppressed8.4]

2 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

We had a lot of fun with that.  Holy cow, was it really 5 years ago ...  I think it was @hoipolloi who brought over the Form 990s. 

So much conflict of interest between VFM and VFI.  I think my favorite was the J Park radio program.  VFI  sold it to VFM for $670,000.

When the BoD liquidated the VFM assets they had to practically give J Park away.  And I swear Dougie ran off with a helluva lot of expensive VFM camera equipment.

Oh I guarantee you he did. Where else did it come from? Or was it why Amex sued him? Ayiyiyiyi....

[smittykins]

4 hours ago, Marian the Librarian said:

Personal aside: I've been reading FJ on my phone while camping in hospital, taking care of Mr. MtL, the proud recipient of a new titanium hip joint. Haven't been able to post until now, but want to say how much I appreciate the thoughtful and entertaining contributions to this thread, and others. Sorry for the aside, and back to regular programming!]

*sends healing vibes to Mr. MtL*

[CyborgKin]

The Amazon reviews on that Y2K book are gold!

Quote

My brother in law drove over to my house in a snowstorm, late at night, to give me this book. I didn't believe it COULD be true. However, I have researched it extensively since that time and have come to the conclusion that it's much better to be prepared for the worst and not have needed to do it than to have needed to prepare and have not done so. Julian Gregori, whether or not you agree with all of his beliefs, has provided the most comprehensive "checklist" of any one person or resource that I have found. I purchased a dozen copies of this book and have handed them out to other members of my family and close friends. Mr. Gregori has helped me realize that the possible consequences of NOT preparing are simply not an option for myself and my loved ones. He is organized and thoughtful in his preparedness checklist. He gives specific names, phone numbers, addresses to help you. By far it is the best book on the subject that I have read.

Sure, Jan.

 

This VHS tape came up too:

https://www.amazon.com/Millennium-Bugs-Deadliest-Secret-VHS/dp/189270904X

Is this a 1998 vintage Botkin production?

It's listed as by Julian Gregori on this page of crazy: http://www.goldchartsrus.com/books/prepbook3.php

 

Now I have a desperate need to see it.

Edited October 26, 2019 by CyborgKin
more!

[bea]

FJ does have a section on fundamentalist Mormons, which I can't find at the moment.  
I find the dissolution of the FLDS and subsequent (at least partial) resurrection of Hilldale/Short Creek as a viable community to be fascinating.  
Now, back to our regular Botkin (now with notkin!) programming.  

(Off topic) This is how I got into fundies, actually. Read “Under The Banner of Heaven,” said “oh my God WHAT” and went down the blog rabbit hole. But I’m not Mormon and found the patriarch stuff (YLCF! VF!) and stayed fascinated.
Thanks, Mormons!

[Marian the Librarian]

Per Ben Botkin's IG account (https://www.instagram.com/benjamin.botkin.composer/) an interesting development from Middle Tennessee, dated October 4th:

Quote

We are getting ready to move closer to Nashville soon (Franklin area for now), which means packing up the music books in my studio. I'm reminded of how many great music books I have... and how good it would be if I actually picked them up and read them

.[Bolding is mine]

Looks like Ben, Audri and their children are breaking free, little by little. Good for them.

[Howl]

59 minutes ago, Marian the Librarian said:

Looks like Ben, Audri and their children are breaking free, little by little. Good for them.

Interesting.  But won't it be hard to support a "growing" family on the income of a freelance internet-based composer?  Franklin is an easy drive into Nashville; I assume he's trying to make connections in the music industry.  Or maybe Audri said something like,  we gotta get da fuk outta here.  

6 hours ago, bea said:

Read “Under The Banner of Heaven,” said “oh my God WHAT” and went down the blog rabbit hole

"Under the Banner of Heaven" is an amazing read, as are all of Jon Krakauer's books. 

[Babysitter]

2 hours ago, Howl said:

Interesting.  But won't it be hard to support a "growing" family on the income of a freelance internet-based composer?  Franklin is an easy drive into Nashville; I assume he's trying to make connections in the music industry.  Or maybe Audri said something like,  we gotta get da fuk outta here.  

"Under the Banner of Heaven" is an amazing read, as are all of Jon Krakauer's books. 

According to FundiWike, they have 3 sons, the last in 2015. Maybe they're breaking free started a few years back with some form of family planning. 

[CyborgKin]

Teri mode: on

You could just Google "James 1" and it would tell you the answer right away.

Teri mode: off

[Howl]

8 minutes ago, CyborgKin said:

Teri mode: on     *You could just Google "James 1" and it would tell you the answer right away.*   Teri mode: off

It's a little dense to unpack, but I think I see the gist of it. 

[FundieGhostWriter]

On 10/26/2019 at 1:21 AM, Nolongeroppressed8.4 said:

Do any of you remember that DP was actually sort of on this Y2K New Zealand takeover too?

I can't confirm that exactly - though crazy Y2K excitement was so widespread in those circles. When the clock turned over there was a sudden collective amnesia, with the fearmongers immediately acting as though they barely remembered the panic! I am, however, certain that by the start of the 00s Doug was 'in' with Geoff's NZ pals, to the extent of having NZ kids, far from home and without their 'headships', in the VF entourage at Home School Conventions.

@notkin, do you know the nature of your uncle's duck biology 'qualification'? Sounds rather specific for undergrad study (Bachelor of Duck Biology anyone?). So it either implies higher research, or more likely not much at all.

Personally, I'd not really think of your grandfather's attitude to female education as an explanation for Geoff's position. Such ideas were mainstream rather than cultist - back then.

The 'Marxist' BS seems to me something more than the usual 'Cultural Marxist' line (I'm pretty sure, BTW, that he was saying that in the 90s - until search engines conquered the world, it was pretty easy to be on-the-record with something like that, and to assume that your parents would never be the wiser). It strikes me as more a case of the black-and-white thinking (splitting) in the world of personality disorders - 'we disagree, so they're against me in every way'. In rejecting his upbringing, he was demonizing his parents, and turning their 'flaws' (in his eyes) into mighty bugbears.

[The Mother Dust]

On 10/25/2019 at 9:10 AM, notkin said:

@palimpsest (love your name btw; it’s my favourite word) I can try to get more info on this but it most likely won’t be easy. My mom is fairly cagey any time I ask her questions about Geoff and his background, since she knows I think he’s a snake and wouldn’t hesitate to spill anything and everything I know. I’ll report back if I can come up with anything.
Unfortunately, their denouncement of higher education, at least for women, isn’t completely different than my own mother’s experience at the hands of my grandfather. She desperately wanted to attend college but he refused to pay for her, since she was a woman. She attended St. John’s in Santa Fe for 1 or 2 semesters before she was forced to drop out due to financial reasons. From what she’s said, he didn’t have the same qualms about financially supporting his sons’ educations.

No matter what Geoff may claim about his Marxist upbringing, the roots of his patriarchal ideology began at home, under the tutelage and example set by his own father.

To the bolded, your mom would have gone to college in the 1970s, correct?  Not the 1870s.   WTF
You referenced earlier the awful way Geoff behaved while your grandmother while was dying, as well as the awful way he treated your sister.  Would you be willing to expound on those points?  If you would rather not, I will completely understand.

[VVV]

On 10/25/2019 at 8:24 PM, Nolongeroppressed8.4 said:

Oh I guarantee you he did. Where else did it come from? Or was it why Amex sued him? Ayiyiyiyi....

Pretty sure Amex is suing Dougie boy for nonpayment of debt. And there is yet to be any action in the lawsuit--I check back in once a week or so--but it seems this is not unusual for such lawsuits in Bexar County.

14 hours ago, FundieGhostWriter said:

Personally, I'd not really think of your grandfather's attitude to female education as an explanation for Geoff's position. Such ideas were mainstream rather than cultist - back then.

Back then? I have siblings about Geoff's age and I graduated from high school in 1978 (so a little younger but not by a generation) and I can guarantee that the mainstream idea in educated middle class families at that time was that daughters as well as sons went to college. How else would the daughters find an educated husband? Although to be fair in my own family the expectation was definitely for the education and career as well.

Heck, when my mother dropped out of her *graduate school* program to marry my father in the late 1940s, my grandfather only reluctantly gave his blessing because he had hoped she would finish her degree and pursue a professional career (which she did do later). But I will admit that perhaps my mother's family was not entirely typical of that era.

Edited October 28, 2019 by VVV

[nokidsmom]

2 hours ago, VVV said:

I have siblings about Geoff's age and I graduated from high school in 1978 (so a little younger but not by a generation) and I can guarantee that the mainstream idea in educated middle class families at that time was that daughters as well as sons went to college. How else would the daughters find an educated husband? Although to be fair in my own family the expectation was definitely for the education and career as well.

Have cousins same age as Geoff and I graduated HS in 1978.  Was in solidly middle class family / neighborhood and can confirm that yes, both daughters and sons went to college.   I came from a family that valued education pretty highly but even amongst friends whose families were more indifferent to the idea of college,  none of them were prevented from going because they were a girl. 

[apandaaries]

@VVV same with my family. My mom graduated law school around 1974. She’d met my dad there, but her focus was school (and her grades were better than his, and she passed the bar the first time, unlike old pops). There were still a lot of prejudices against women in the legal field, so despite their academic differences, he was offered more positions much more quickly than she was. 
But my grandmother and all her sisters graduated college, too, and they were Depression-era survivors. They saw the degree as important for supporting themselves in the future. Many of them pursued some kind of grad school, though finishing that was a bit more in the air.

My maternal family was a bit different, though. My maternal great-grandfather went blind, because as a welder way back when, there weren’t many safety features whatsoever. My great-grandmother got a job at a school as a secretary and continued to raise the seven surviving children (the baby died of whooping cough, in those terrible days before vaccinations). That obviously would influence the kids. But it’s not like other working men don’t face potential dangers all the time. It’s just smarter to have two educated parents in a home, just in case the worst happens to the breadwinner.

Edited October 28, 2019 by apandaaries