Josie & Kelton 5: I just see babies having baby showers!

[Charliemae]

Back in my day we used to call the pull out method "Pull and Pray". 

 

With her talking about family planning as if it's actually a choice; I'm officially curious about when they'll have their next baby. 

[neurogirl]

I also thought her answer to this was thoughtful. As we suspected, it seemed to have been very hard for Kelton to go through the 
birthing process with Josie. I wonder if he was terrified the entire pregnancy and if that had something to do with them wanting to wait (or limiting a quiver in the future???)

[kmachete14]

Okay I take back that you WILL get pregnant (perhaps that's leftover from middle school sex ed lol), but I did look it up and according to Mayo Clinic, 28/100 people get pregnant. So, about 1/4. 

[est11]

I read here often, but I have only posted once or twice. I just need to insert this information here because it's something I'm passionate about. I came from a VERY conservative background (and I'm still rather conservative myself).  For reference sake, in appearance, I'm quite a bit more conservative than the Bates family.  However, in philosophy, I have rather...progressive...views compared to many of my friends and relatives. It's an interesting place to be.

Anyhow, my family was not against pregnancy prevention at all, but I was cautioned not to use hormonal birth control for a number of reasons. When I was headed for marriage (yes, I was a virgin, and so was my husband), we discussed that we wanted to limit our family size, but he had heard some very negative things about condoms (from his mother, who has an interesting lack of boundaries).  So I set about researching and discovered Fertility Awareness Method.  Look it up....it works!!!  We chose not to use condoms during my fertile period for the most part bc we didn't care for them. And my husband is really really good at pulling.  I never have taken any hormonal BC, and we have 3 intentional children. The middle one was a result of "playing with fire" and not pulling right at the end of my period, but we knew what we were doing and were ok with another child. So I don't call him a surprise. Anyhow, we used that method for a total of 4 years and 9 months over 8 years of marriage (i took out the months i was trying or pregnant with our 3 as well as a short-lived pregnancy) before my husband got a vasectomy. It CAN be completely effective, and if we would better educate our children about their bodies, it would be a much better option.  I prefer not to speculate on any particular person's sex education level, choice of method, or amount of self-control, so I won't comment on the couple in question. 

So yeah...that's my take on pulling & praying. Carry on. ??

[Belugaloo]

34 minutes ago, est11 said:

I read here often, but I have only posted once or twice. I just need to insert this information here because it's something I'm passionate about. I came from a VERY conservative background (and I'm still rather conservative myself).  For reference sake, in appearance, I'm quite a bit more conservative than the Bates family.  However, in philosophy, I have rather...progressive...views compared to many of my friends and relatives. It's an interesting place to be.

Anyhow, my family was not against pregnancy prevention at all, but I was cautioned not to use hormonal birth control for a number of reasons. When I was headed for marriage (yes, I was a virgin, and so was my husband), we discussed that we wanted to limit our family size, but he had heard some very negative things about condoms (from his mother, who has an interesting lack of boundaries).  So I set about researching and discovered Fertility Awareness Method.  Look it up....it works!!!  We chose not to use condoms during my fertile period for the most part bc we didn't care for them. And my husband is really really good at pulling.  I never have taken any hormonal BC, and we have 3 intentional children. The middle one was a result of "playing with fire" and not pulling right at the end of my period, but we knew what we were doing and were ok with another child. So I don't call him a surprise. Anyhow, we used that method for a total of 4 years and 9 months over 8 years of marriage (i took out the months i was trying or pregnant with our 3 as well as a short-lived pregnancy) before my husband got a vasectomy. It CAN be completely effective, and if we would better educate our children about their bodies, it would be a much better option.  I prefer not to speculate on any particular person's sex education level, choice of method, or amount of self-control, so I won't comment on the couple in question. 

So yeah...that's my take on pulling & praying. Carry on. ??

I also know multiple friends who used this method before starting birth control, and it worked for them. I used it multiple times my freshman year of college before starting birth control. (used it 100% of the time while taking the pill).... ive never met someone who got pregnant on accident that didnt allow their SO to finish inside of them. the failure for them was that he didn't pull out, not that he did and it didnt work  

[neuroticcat]

4 hours ago, neurogirl said:

I also thought her answer to this was thoughtful. As we suspected, it seemed to have been very hard for Kelton to go through the 
birthing process with Josie. I wonder if he was terrified the entire pregnancy and if that had something to do with them wanting to wait (or limiting a quiver in the future???)

That makes sense. Have they ever said what happened to his mother or just that she died in (after?) childbirth?

[Lgirlrocks]

I really hope kelly and Gil are supportive. I feel like if they were supportive than they would have let the girls wear pants while living at home once they were 18, if they wanted to. 

[adidas]

6 hours ago, Belugaloo said:

ive never met someone who got pregnant on accident that didnt allow their SO to finish inside of them. the failure for them was that he didn't pull out, not that he did and it didnt work  

Hi, my name is Adidas and my son is one of the 4%.

***

When used perfectly, the withdrawal method has a failure rate of 4%.

***
Liddon N, O’Malley Olsen E, Carter M, Hatfield-Timajchy K. Withdrawal as a pregnancy prevention associated risk factors among US high school students: findings from the 2011 National Youth Risk Behavior Study. Contraception. 2016. 93(2016) 126–132.

[haroldtheyrefundies]

8 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

That makes sense. Have they ever said what happened to his mother or just that she died in (after?) childbirth?

Kelton explained what happened during his and Josie's courtposal episode. He talked about how his mom died during childbirth and how hard his dad tried to raise Kelton and his siblings after his mom's death. He said that the hard times they went through together made him and his dad closer and that he tells his dad everything. I guess he didn't really go into detail about his mom's death but I feel like that's something that doesn't need to be explained in great detail. I know I wouldn't want to explain exactly how my parent died on TV. 

[FluffySnowball]

After what has happened to his mother, we can at least be sure that the idea of women becoming martyrs on the altar of fertility is not one Kelton romanticizes. He knows first hand how sad gut-wrenching the loss of a parent can be.

I expect Josie and him to have two more children rather close together and then stopping altogether or taking a longer break of a couple of years. 

[neuroticcat]

3 hours ago, FluffySnowball said:

After what has happened to his mother, we can at least be sure that the idea of women becoming martyrs on the altar of fertility is not one Kelton romanticizes. He knows first hand how sad gut-wrenching the loss of a parent can be.

I expect Josie and him to have two more children rather close together and then stopping altogether or taking a longer break of a couple of years. 

I hope so, though I was googling last night and found a clip of his dad talking about his mom right after her death - meant to be public but it feels tacky to share the link.

Anyway, much of what he said immortalized her in exactly that - her motherhood...and it sounds like Kelton had the exact kind of upbringing as the rest of our fundamentalists- homeschooled, relatively isolated, disciplined, and heavy on religious indoctrination but with what sounds like a strong element of parents who cared. I can’t imagine the tragedy of losing a loving parent in your teens but I wonder if she was lionized for her motherhood if that becomes such a huge piece of what you think marriage or womanhood is all about?

[lumpentheologie]

20 hours ago, adidas said:

Hi, my name is Adidas and my son is one of the 4%.

***

When used perfectly, the withdrawal method has a failure rate of 4%.

***
Liddon N, O’Malley Olsen E, Carter M, Hatfield-Timajchy K. Withdrawal as a pregnancy prevention associated risk factors among US high school students: findings from the 2011 National Youth Risk Behavior Study. Contraception. 2016. 93(2016) 126–132.

Yep, my roommate got pregnant using withdrawal with her boyfriend.  She had no idea it wasn't a reliable method. It definitely isn't. 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

A minority of men (don’t know what percentage) have sperm in their pre-ejaculate fluid. Pulling out should work - unless your partner happens to be one of those men.

[freethemall]

On 12/13/2019 at 2:24 PM, est11 said:

I read here often, but I have only posted once or twice. I just need to insert this information here because it's something I'm passionate about. I came from a VERY conservative background (and I'm still rather conservative myself).  For reference sake, in appearance, I'm quite a bit more conservative than the Bates family.  However, in philosophy, I have rather...progressive...views compared to many of my friends and relatives. It's an interesting place to be.

Anyhow, my family was not against pregnancy prevention at all, but I was cautioned not to use hormonal birth control for a number of reasons. When I was headed for marriage (yes, I was a virgin, and so was my husband), we discussed that we wanted to limit our family size, but he had heard some very negative things about condoms (from his mother, who has an interesting lack of boundaries).  So I set about researching and discovered Fertility Awareness Method.  Look it up....it works!!!  We chose not to use condoms during my fertile period for the most part bc we didn't care for them. And my husband is really really good at pulling.  I never have taken any hormonal BC, and we have 3 intentional children. The middle one was a result of "playing with fire" and not pulling right at the end of my period, but we knew what we were doing and were ok with another child. So I don't call him a surprise. Anyhow, we used that method for a total of 4 years and 9 months over 8 years of marriage (i took out the months i was trying or pregnant with our 3 as well as a short-lived pregnancy) before my husband got a vasectomy. It CAN be completely effective, and if we would better educate our children about their bodies, it would be a much better option.  I prefer not to speculate on any particular person's sex education level, choice of method, or amount of self-control, so I won't comment on the couple in question. 

So yeah...that's my take on pulling & praying. Carry on. ??

You've had a lot of luck,  with LUCK being the keyword.  As I've always understood, you can still get pregnant from pre-cum, and many women have.

But I do agree this was probably the primary birth control method they used.

[adidas]

2 hours ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

A minority of men (don’t know what percentage) have sperm in their pre-ejaculate fluid. Pulling out should work - unless your partner happens to be one of those men.

This study says its around the 40% mark

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3564677/

This article gives lots of stats:

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/325356.php#pull-out-method

[JermajestyDuggar]

My good friend just gave birth to her pull out surprise. A little less than 14 months after her last baby. She got her tubes tied with this last one when having a c-section. That’s obviously much more reliable than the pull out method for them. 

[est11]

On 12/14/2019 at 11:39 PM, freethemall said:

You've had a lot of luck,  with LUCK being the keyword.  As I've always understood, you can still get pregnant from pre-cum, and many women have.

But I do agree this was probably the primary birth control method they used.

We did a lot of research before coming to the conclusion that we did. Basically, we have always been in the position that we would like to limit our family size, but we have also always been of the opinion that children aren't the worst things in the world to have. And what we found in our research echoed a quote I have copied from the Medical News Today article posted above: "Despite this risk, when a person does it correctly, the pull-out method works about as well as condoms in preventing pregnancy."  And since we didn't like condoms or hormonal BC, this worked for us. Again, we also combined it with close knowledge of my cycle and were SUPER careful during fertile days. 

I acknowledge that not everyone has the same opinions, beliefs, and circumstances that we do. I should have been more clear in my original post that I am in no way suggesting that the withdrawal method should be the only BC method that all people should use. For many, it would be a very bad idea. I simply wanted to share a successful personal perspective on it.

[Eponine]

On 12/13/2019 at 2:24 PM, est11 said:

I read here often, but I have only posted once or twice. I just need to insert this information here because it's something I'm passionate about. I came from a VERY conservative background (and I'm still rather conservative myself).  For reference sake, in appearance, I'm quite a bit more conservative than the Bates family.  However, in philosophy, I have rather...progressive...views compared to many of my friends and relatives. It's an interesting place to be.

Anyhow, my family was not against pregnancy prevention at all, but I was cautioned not to use hormonal birth control for a number of reasons. When I was headed for marriage (yes, I was a virgin, and so was my husband), we discussed that we wanted to limit our family size, but he had heard some very negative things about condoms (from his mother, who has an interesting lack of boundaries).  So I set about researching and discovered Fertility Awareness Method.  Look it up....it works!!!  We chose not to use condoms during my fertile period for the most part bc we didn't care for them. And my husband is really really good at pulling.  I never have taken any hormonal BC, and we have 3 intentional children. The middle one was a result of "playing with fire" and not pulling right at the end of my period, but we knew what we were doing and were ok with another child. So I don't call him a surprise. Anyhow, we used that method for a total of 4 years and 9 months over 8 years of marriage (i took out the months i was trying or pregnant with our 3 as well as a short-lived pregnancy) before my husband got a vasectomy. It CAN be completely effective, and if we would better educate our children about their bodies, it would be a much better option.  I prefer not to speculate on any particular person's sex education level, choice of method, or amount of self-control, so I won't comment on the couple in question. 

So yeah...that's my take on pulling & praying. Carry on. ??

The key part here is "when used correctly." Many, MANY people would have no real ability to do it correctly because there are too many unknowns. Does he have sperm in his pre-ejaculate (does he know whether he does or not)? Is her cycle extremely predictable, and are the signs of her fertile periods recognizable? For lots and lots of people the answers to these are "no." And unless they do know these things for sure they absolutely should not use this method of "birth control."

I could never, ever use this method because my body does not like to stick to any regular cycle on its own, and the signs that are supposed to indicate fertility only showed up inconsistently. Thank goodness I'm aware enough to know that this would prevent me from being able to use it.

I feel pretty confident in saying that no fundie educated at the SODRT should ever use this method because they simply do not have the understanding of biology to be able to do it. It certainly can work for a small percentage of people, but I sincerely hope that no fundies who actually want to limit their family size ever use it. They'll end up unhappy, with too many children.

[est11]

12 hours ago, Eponine said:

The key part here is "when used correctly." Many, MANY people would have no real ability to do it correctly because there are too many unknowns. Does he have sperm in his pre-ejaculate (does he know whether he does or not)? Is her cycle extremely predictable, and are the signs of her fertile periods recognizable? For lots and lots of people the answers to these are "no." And unless they do know these things for sure they absolutely should not use this method of "birth control."

I could never, ever use this method because my body does not like to stick to any regular cycle on its own, and the signs that are supposed to indicate fertility only showed up inconsistently. Thank goodness I'm aware enough to know that this would prevent me from being able to use it.

I feel pretty confident in saying that no fundie educated at the SODRT should ever use this method because they simply do not have the understanding of biology to be able to do it. It certainly can work for a small percentage of people, but I sincerely hope that no fundies who actually want to limit their family size ever use it. They'll end up unhappy, with too many children.

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, but I feel I need to respond to the language used above.  By most definitions found on this site, I myself am a "fundie."  I read here because I enjoy my views and thoughts being challenged (though I will concede that this is out of the norm for most "fundies").  I was homeschooled one year, but most of my education was at a private Baptist school where no sex education classes were offered (I don't agree with this, btw).   I also graduated from a private Wesleyan university with a BS in Accounting.  My total public schooling was one year (5th grade).  And I now homeschool my own children, though it's at the breakfast room table, not the DRT. ? But I somehow had the intelligence to research FAM and withdrawal for myself and use it successfully. 

As I stated in my last post, I realize that not everyone has the same opinions, circumstances, and beliefs that my husband and I do. I freely admit that using the withdrawal method is not for everyone due to a variety of issues. However, I very much resent the implication that no "fundie" can use it properly or effectively because we (my husband and I) certainly have, as I explained. Just as we all should refrain from stereotyping people based on their race, gender, color, etc, I think we should be careful to refrain from stereotyping people and their intelligence level based on their religious beliefs. I understand that many fundies have shown a great deal of ignorance over the years; I often shake my head in disbelief over things I hear from other people at church events. But I shake my head at mainstream folk and their lack of knowledge as well.  ??‍♀️

Tl;dr - We (fundies) aren't all ignorant, uneducated, and/or lazy, and it would be nice for that to be acknowledged and remembered. 

PS - I mean no I'll will in my reply - just offering a little insight/perspective that some may not have encountered.

[just_ordinary]

My biggest problem with all methods that rely on counting/observing your own body is this:

It doesn’t matter that you had the perfect regular cycle up to date. Hormonal changes can hit at anytime. Bodies can change, symptoms can change, a one time off can happen too. Even with checking your cervix and temperature you only for sure know afterwards (and when you are stressed, ill, travelling..... it can show in your curves so it isn’t perfectly interpretable) that ovulation happened. Experience and knowledge is the key with those methods but we should never forget they we can miss signs or that changes can happen without notice.

Stating that your cycle has been ever on point and expecting the next to be too is a bit naive if you definitely don’t want to conceive. Even ovulation tests can not proof a hundred percent when your ovulation is. The mix with temperature is pretty safe but still. I wouldn’t do it if I couldn’t handle dealing with a pregnancy.

[CarrotCake]

These methods are a good way to decrease the chance of conceiving over time and therefore limit the number of kids in the long term. 

But when you want to avoid getting pregnant right now you are taking a huge risk.

[Eponine]

10 hours ago, est11 said:

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, but I feel I need to respond to the language used above.  By most definitions found on this site, I myself am a "fundie."  I read here because I enjoy my views and thoughts being challenged (though I will concede that this is out of the norm for most "fundies").  I was homeschooled one year, but most of my education was at a private Baptist school where no sex education classes were offered (I don't agree with this, btw).   I also graduated from a private Wesleyan university with a BS in Accounting.  My total public schooling was one year (5th grade).  And I now homeschool my own children, though it's at the breakfast room table, not the DRT. ? But I somehow had the intelligence to research FAM and withdrawal for myself and use it successfully.

Your background is extremely different than most of the fundies we snark on here. You had the means and context of knowing how to research, how to evaluate sources, and and how to think critically. This is so far from the people we are discussing that it barely relates to how they would think.

It's not whether or not you had sex ed or how much public school you had that would determine whether you can figure this out, it's whether or not you have the ability to research and understand effectively. You do, they don't. When I'm referring to "fundies" here, I mean the ones we talk about, sorry for the confusion.

[est11]

7 hours ago, Eponine said:

Your background is extremely different than most of the fundies we snark on here. You had the means and context of knowing how to research, how to evaluate sources, and and how to think critically. This is so far from the people we are discussing that it barely relates to how they would think.

It's not whether or not you had sex ed or how much public school you had that would determine whether you can figure this out, it's whether or not you have the ability to research and understand effectively. You do, they don't. When I'm referring to "fundies" here, I mean the ones we talk about, sorry for the confusion.

Thank you for the clarification!!  You are correct that I am privileged in my educational background thanks to my parents' value of it. I am grateful for their sacrifice & investment into my and my siblings' school choices pretty much every day. 

[nausicaa]

Unpopular opinion: withdrawal gets a bad rap and is a decent birth control method for certain demographics.

I'm not saying it's foolproof and wouldn't encourage any sexually active teenagers to use it, but if you're fundie and would like to try and space the kids out a bit, it's a good bet. And you don't have to know where you are on your cycle if the male is doing his part correctly. (Are people confusing withdrawal with NFP?)

The stats I'm pulling up, it's about 82% effective as practiced, so only one in five women will get pregnant within a year of using it. Those are decent odds if you're okay with having children at some point.

However, if done completely correctly (the man withdrawals before ejaculation every.single.time), the practice has a 96% success rate--compared to a 98% success rate with perfectly used condoms. (Condoms as used have a 17% failure rate, by the way.) 

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/birth-control/withdrawal-pull-out-method/how-effective-is-withdrawal-method-pulling-out

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/ywmm9k/pulling-out-is-as-effective-as-using-condoms

https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2018/09/25/32881434/theyve-been-pulling-out-for-the-last-year-and-shes-not-pregnant-is-that-a-bad-sign

I get why we generally discourage relying on withdrawal: it's unlikely to be effective for teenagers just learning about their bodies with a variety of partners, and obviously doesn't protect against STIs. However, for older, experienced people in a committed relationship, it's not as bad as commonly made out. 

[Charliemae]

1 hour ago, nausicaa said:

Unpopular opinion: withdrawal gets a bad rap and is a decent birth control method for certain demographics.

I'm not saying it's foolproof and wouldn't encourage any sexually active teenagers to use it, but if you're fundie and would like to try and space the kids out a bit, it's a good bet. And you don't have to know where you are on your cycle if the male is doing his part correctly. (Are people confusing withdrawal with NFP?)

 

Yes, yes they are,