Josie & Kelton 5: I just see babies having baby showers!

[JermajestyDuggar]

I’ve give gone to chiropractors all my life. I’ve been helped by some and not helped but others. I’ve seen some of them very into woo. I say always stay away from the woo pushers. From what I’ve seen as a fundie watcher, the biggest woo freak fundies love their chiropractor and treat them as their regular doctor. That’s why I side eye Willow going as a newborn. I’m hoping Josie isn’t getting into the woo that is so popular in fundie circles. 

[LilMissMetaphor]

21 hours ago, formergothardite said:

So it seems like there is no evidence that the claims chiropractors can cure infant and baby issues is true. If someone is treating a medical condition based on no scientific evidence then they are using woo. If an adult wants to use woo to cure shit that is one thing but while this might just be a harmless waste of money that gets some placebo effect, google shows it has also at least broken the neck of one baby.

 

 

I don't think chiros should be adjusting babies either, but how many babies have doctors killed, if we really want to get into iatrogenics?

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

1 hour ago, just_ordinary said:

It’s so interesting how much the meaning can vary. In my country, chiropractic is an additional training for real doctors or registered naturopaths (who have a state permission aka vocational training).

Here in Ontario, I side-eye naturopaths hard. They have a four year post-undergrad degree but they seem entirely full of woo (in my experience). I think my mom went to one who did the bogus allergy test using muscle weakness and was told to give up coffee, tea, and a million other things, none of which helped her migraines.

Whoever wrote the Wikipedia article really spilled the tea! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturopathy

The "allergy" test via arm muscle weakness: Applied Kinesiology or NAET Test (Nambudripad’s Allergy Elimination Technique) (two different but related woo-tastic tests) from https://www.kidswithfoodallergies.org/page/unproven-methods-food-allergy-tests.aspx

[JermajestyDuggar]

38 minutes ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

I don't think chiros should be adjusting babies either, but how many babies have doctors killed, if we really want to get into iatrogenics?

I think this is a really disingenuous argument. You can’t compare chiros to doctors because way more people go to doctors than chiropractors. So of course more people will be killed by a doctor. They treat much more serious issues. That same thought is used as a defense when woo lovers refuse to have an assisted homebirth. Because babies and women die in hospitals. I really can’t stand this line of thinking.

[formergothardite]

27 minutes ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

I don't think chiros should be adjusting babies either, but how many babies have doctors killed, if we really want to get into iatrogenics?

Who knows. But it is not relevant when discussing quacks using nonsense to "cure" babies. This same "well what about doctors" is used by everyone from people shilling essential oils to people shilling Plexus as a way to distract from the discussion about how their medical advice is nothing but but a pile of shit. Whataboutism is a logical fallacy. 

 

[Screamapillar]

1 hour ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

That’s why I side eye Willow going as a newborn. I’m hoping Josie isn’t getting into the woo that is so popular in fundie circles. 

I agree, and my concern comes in when I think of all of the Bates leghumpers who follow Josie on IG who could possibly think something like "Oh, the Bates take their cute baybeeeez to chiropractors, so I should probably take my baby Heisthewaylynn to one, too! She cries too much."

The Bates are ignorant and have an ignorant fan base, IMO. (Hopefully in all of our opinions.) When they publicly display unsafe practices with their children, I cringe.

[LilMissMetaphor]

My point was that documenting a case that a chiropractor was responsible for killing a baby is not a reasonable argument for not going to one at all.  Alternative medicine will have its failures and its mistakes (minor or tragic) just like traditional med will.  

[formergothardite]

10 minutes ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

My point was that documenting a case that a chiropractor was responsible for killing a baby is not a reasonable argument for not going to one at all. 

It is a good argument that chiropractors shouldn't be using quack medicine on newborns. You don't actually need a broken neck to have a good argument that it is very unwise to use quack medicine on babies and children.  And that chiropractors who make outrageous medical claims based on no scientific evidence should be avoided. 

And really, it doesn't make sense to compare actual medical procedures that are evidence based to just pure nonsense. 

[theotherelise]

A close family member of mine is a pediatric physical therapist. In the US, if your baby has torticollis or similar, asking for a referral to a physical therapist is the best practice. 

I've had a range of chiropractors. It has helped with migraines for me (my migraines are caused by my forward head posture) and my misaligned hips due to my scoliosis. But my PT family member always side eyes me when I have! It is cheaper for me to go to a chiro instead of going to doctor and getting referral. I have a high deductible plan.

I wouldn't ever take a newborn to a chiropractor, but I don't think it's fair to call that an endangerment. It's in the vein of amber teething necklaces for me.  

[Granwych]

3 hours ago, theotherelise said:

A close family member of mine is a pediatric physical therapist. In the US, if your baby has torticollis or similar, asking for a referral to a physical therapist is the best practice. 

I've had a range of chiropractors. It has helped with migraines for me (my migraines are caused by my forward head posture) and my misaligned hips due to my scoliosis. But my PT family member always side eyes me when I have! It is cheaper for me to go to a chiro instead of going to doctor and getting referral. I have a high deductible plan.

I wouldn't ever take a newborn to a chiropractor, but I don't think it's fair to call that an endangerment. It's in the vein of amber teething necklaces for me.  

Chiropractic for adults is so far removed from chiropractic for newborns that it isn't a fair comparison in my opinion.  I admit that an adult can be helped by a knowledgeable chiropractor for certain musculoskeletal problems, but what can a chiropractor safely do for an infant or very young child that a pediatrician or physical therapist cannot?

A close family relative has been employed in the office of a local chiropractor husband and wife team.  No one in my immediate or extended family has ever utilized the services of any chiropractor.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Granwych
Addendum

[AmericanRose]

15 hours ago, PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea said:

Here in Ontario, I side-eye naturopaths hard. They have a four year post-undergrad degree but they seem entirely full of woo (in my experience). I think my mom went to one who did the bogus allergy test using muscle weakness and was told to give up coffee, tea, and a million other things, none of which helped her migraines.

Whoever wrote the Wikipedia article really spilled the tea! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturopathy

The "allergy" test via arm muscle weakness: Applied Kinesiology or NAET Test (Nambudripad’s Allergy Elimination Technique) (two different but related woo-tastic tests) from https://www.kidswithfoodallergies.org/page/unproven-methods-food-allergy-tests.aspx

I have a naturopath as my primary doctor (got pretty fed up with my original 'traditional' primary), and she recommended me to a proper allergist.* Viewing her website, her practice also performs vaccinations. But I'm in WA state... maybe it's different here?

* My mom frequents a health food store, and the woman there does some sort of 'energy test' with products to see what products you should and shouldn't take. You hold the product to your chest and lift your opposite hand above your head and see if you can connect your index and thumb, or something like that. If they can touch, it's good for you. If they can't, it's bad for you. I would call that woo... but so far as I know, she doesn't claim to be a naturopath!

[SassyPants]

9 hours ago, AmericanRose said:

I have a naturopath as my primary doctor (got pretty fed up with my original 'traditional' primary), and she recommended me to a proper allergist.* Viewing her website, her practice also performs vaccinations. But I'm in WA state... maybe it's different here?

* My mom frequents a health food store, and the woman there does some sort of 'energy test' with products to see what products you should and shouldn't take. You hold the product to your chest and lift your opposite hand above your head and see if you can connect your index and thumb, or something like that. If they can touch, it's good for you. If they can't, it's bad for you. I would call that woo... but so far as I know, she doesn't claim to be a naturopath!

Does your insurance, if you have any, cover a naturopath? I’m in CA and I have never had insurance that would cover a naturopath’s services.

[AmericanRose]

14 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Does your insurance, if you have any, cover a naturopath? I’m in CA and I have never had insurance that would cover a naturopath’s services.

I've only been seeing a naturopath for 2 years now, but all 3 insurance companies I've been with during that time have covered it (with co-pay, of course). It's $35 for a doctor, $46 for a naturopath.

[Knight of Ni]

I'm currently recovering from knee surgery. (Complete reconstruction of the ACL.) I will be seeing a physical therapist.  The thought of a chiropractor manipulating my leg makes me cringe. I'm looking forward to walking normally again. 

[nausicaa]

On 9/19/2019 at 10:47 AM, LilMissMetaphor said:

My point was that documenting a case that a chiropractor was responsible for killing a baby is not a reasonable argument for not going to one at all.  Alternative medicine will have its failures and its mistakes (minor or tragic) just like traditional med will.  

Alternative medicine that has been proven to be evidence-based and works is just called "medicine." People dividing medicine into "alternative" and "traditional" is as much of a red flag to me as the ridiculous shibboleth "Big Pharma."

 

FJ is into chiropractors, naturopaths, and alternative medicine now? God help me... Seriously, if this place goes anti-vax on me, I'm gonna have a stroke (hey, maybe a naturopath can fix me up with some essential oils?) 

A few points I'll leave here:

• Chiropractic schooling is a joke compared to that of a legitimate medical school. One example: the biochem on tests like the MCAT and general university courses are much harder than the biochem chiros need to pass their final board exams.  You also get infinite attempts to pass the final board exam.
• The field was literally founded in 1895 solely by a dude who openly believed in bunkum like magnetic healing and was anti-vax. He also claimed, on record, that he received chiropractic care from a deceased doctor and received some of his guiding chiropractic messages from other deceased doctors. (I suppose this took the place of any formal education, as he never attended medical school). This is a lot like Mormonism-- you gotta look at where it came from and ask yourself some questions.
• A 2003 survey showed that up to 30% of Canadian chiropractors are anti-vax. Do you really have much faith in a medical field in which this many practitioners are ignorant of basic, proven medical concepts? https://www.jmptonline.org/article/S0161-4754(05)00111-9/fulltext

Also, for those who acknowledge it may just be a placebo effect, I do get that if you're in pain and something works, you just go with it because you don't want to be in pain anymore. But please keep in mind that giving your business to chiropractors still helps to prop up a dishonest and dangerous profession that also commits insurance fraud at an alarming rate. 

[nausicaa]

On 9/20/2019 at 1:27 AM, AmericanRose said:

 Viewing her website, her practice also performs vaccinations. But I'm in WA state... maybe it's different here?

She would definitely be in the minority. Naturopathy was basically founded as response to the small pox vaccine, and proponents of naturopathy believed diet, exercise, and regulated breathing could ward off the disease. 

The anti-vax attitude continues to this day. As of 2016, the American Association of Naturopathic Physicians is still "discussing" their stance on vaccines. (I can save them some time: they fucking work.)

Only a small minority of naturopaths support full vaccination. 

ttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2924961/

[Ms.Pickle]

2 hours ago, Knight of Ni said:

I'm currently recovering from knee surgery. (Complete reconstruction of the ACL.) I will be seeing a physical therapist.  The thought of a chiropractor manipulating my leg makes me cringe. I'm looking forward to walking normally again. 

Same here. Tore my acl and meniscus and I cringe everytime my knee accidentally cracks. Re learning how to walk was one of the hardest thing I ever had to do. Good luck!

[AmericanRose]

12 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

She would definitely be in the minority. Naturopathy was basically founded as response to the small pox vaccine, and proponents of naturopathy believed diet, exercise, and regulated breathing could ward off the disease. 

The anti-vax attitude continues to this day. As of 2016, the American Association of Naturopathic Physicians is still "discussing" their stance on vaccines. (I can save them some time: they fucking work.)

Only a small minority of naturopaths support full vaccination. 

ttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2924961/

Interesting! The clinic has 6 women, and they mainly focus on fertility / pediatric, but it was right behind my apartment and I was really frustrated with my doctor, so I was willing to try just about anything. I think their thing is that they blend 'western medicine' with naturopathy. She referred me to an allergist and prescribed Finacea for my rosacea, along with fish oil (for my constantly watering eyes) and iron (for my anemia... my original doctor never bothered to order a blood test).

[WiseGirl]

I live in Lyme Disease country. Have those of you with alarming and fast acting symptoms been tested for Lyme? It is so missunderstood and I really don't think doctors take it seriously.  Ticks are the bane if my existance and yes I have washed my entire body multiple times with Dawn if I do find one on me.

I can't go to a Chiropractor,  but Physical Therapy has been a game changer for my back. 

 

[mstee]

 I think it’s crazy to say that parents who take their baby or child to a chiropractor are bad parents, as stated earlier in this thread. I wasn’t going to chime in again but I guess I feel the need to say that I grew up seeing a chiropractor and decided to do the same with my now toddler. We don’t go too often but as needed, usually for my bad shoulder.  Some times my toddler just watches and doesn’t get adjusted. My toddler is fully vaccinated, sees a pediatrician for her regular check ups, and has taken antibiotics as needed for infections. I don’t think we are completely in some obscure realm that we also get chiropractic care. And my chiropractor is not anti-VAX and doesn’t try to shove oils down our throats or anything like that. I’m also a registered nurse so I am clearly not against medical care. I’m not looking to argue with anyone here; I’ve been a member since the Yuku days and have avoided major conflicts. But I felt the need to add my perspective.  Josie and her baby have a lot of issues in their culture but I don’t think going to a chiropractor is very high on that list. 

[jqlgoblue]

My cousin took her daughter to a chiropractor as a small baby. The birth was rough and my cousin was pretty convinced that the baby had a pinched nerve. Also, due to how birth went I think she lost trust in the doctors in her area. I went with them once and the chiropractor also did the allergen vial/arm thing while she was holding the baby and I was like wtf. I do think limiting allergens may have helped to reduce crying too but I am firmly in the camp that the vial / arm thing is as good as flipping a coin. And fwiw the child is vaccinated (though i think they spread them out more than required).

I have been to the chiropractor and the one I saw introduced me to pilates which was absolutely life changing for me at the time. (PT in the late 90s when I first got injured was a far cry from today fwiw). Anyway, now I get acupuncture occasionally b/c it does help release tension in muscles. That said, to me chiro / acupuncture are more like massage... they help temporarily. The physical therapy, pilates, and/or other strength training is provides the lasting change (though the combo of the two can expedite the process, imo). 

[Kailash]

On 9/21/2019 at 11:33 PM, nausicaa said:

snip

 

FJ is into chiropractors, naturopaths, and alternative medicine now? God help me... Seriously, if this place goes anti-vax on me, I'm gonna have a stroke (hey, maybe a naturopath can fix me up with some essential oils?) 

Snip

FJ isn’t into chiropractors, naturopaths and alternative medicine now. Certain people who post on FJ are. Of those listed I’m “only” “into” chiropractors. I am pro vaccine. It’s cute that you lumped us all together though.

[nausicaa]

6 hours ago, Kailash said:

FJ isn’t into chiropractors, naturopaths and alternative medicine now. Certain people who post on FJ are. Of those listed I’m “only” “into” chiropractors. I am pro vaccine. It’s cute that you lumped us all together though.

Fair enough. I shouldn't have generalized. 

My concern is mainly that it does sometimes seem that there are more and more claims on FJ (by some posters, not all) not grounded in science and there are several topics where feelings trump facts and it does make me uncomfortable.

And I didn't mean to suggest that everyone who goes to a chiropractor is anti-vax, but chiropractors themselves do statistically lean that way more than the general population.

Edited September 23, 2019 by nausicaa

[formergothardite]

 

6 hours ago, Kailash said:

Certain people who post on FJ are.

But when they post about using non-scientific medical alternatives as medical "cures" for their kids they really shouldn't be surprised they are called out on this being bullshit. We do the same with fundies who post about using quack medicine on their kids. 

And I too am surprised at members who are okay with chiropractors who are shilling snake oil. It isn't okay for them to practice on infants and children claiming they can cure things when they really can't. 

 

Edited September 23, 2019 by formergothardite

[Belugaloo]

28 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

Fair enough. I shouldn't have generalized. 

My concern is mainly that it does sometimes seem that there are more and more claims on FJ (by some posters, not all) not grounded in science and there are several topics where feelings trump facts and it does make me uncomfortable.

And I didn't mean to suggest that everyone who goes to a chiropractor is anti-vax, but chiropractors themselves do statistically lean that way more than the general population.

I personally really like that more people on FJ are feeling comfortable sharing their views that were traditionally NOT ALLOWED on FJ. I remember when I first started reading here if you had a certain opinion (maybe like "I go to a chiropractor") you'd get a swarm of responses.

 

A lot of people believe things or not grounded in science. I work in the psych field, and I hope to eventually enter a Phd program for neuroscience so I love science/data, but those opinions aren't irrelevant just because !!data!!. I deal with annoying parents everyday that say outdated crap so incredibly NOT supported by science and I have to bite my tongue while silently rolling my eyes. The opinion-based things some FJ'ers sometimes mention are harmless in comparison. 

 

 

Edit just to add: I agree with you when feelings trump fact it can be super bothersome. I haven't run in to this on FJ yet (or maybe I've just ignored it) but I totally understand your discomfort. Parents do that to me in regards to their kids all the time and its really hard to deal with. 100% with you on that. Feelings are important. Facts need to be acknowledged and respected, though. 

Edited September 23, 2019 by Belugaloo