Measles on the rise worldwide

[Briefly]

13 hours ago, Syriana said:

I'll admit I'm not fully vaccinated - I'm one of the 1 in a million who has an anaphylactic reaction and any vaccination I can't avoid is a production involving hospitals, crash carts and numerous HCP's - but I didn't realise the risk of major problems from a vaccine-preventable disease was 1/20 if everyone stopped vaccinating.  I knew it was pretty high, but not that high.

You are at so much higher risk because people don't vaccinate that should.  My understanding of herd immunity is that it is to protect people who are not vaccinated because they can't or that have a weakened immune system, cancer or a similar health issue.  It makes me so mad that people don't vaccinate that should.

[JustEnough]

The first case of measles was confirmed in the area I live in today. I am very immunocompromised and I don't hold vaccine titres like my body should. I am too high risk to get another dose of the MMR vaccine and I don't want to leave my house. Measles is so very very contagious. I already wear a mask and hand sanitizer is my best friend when I'm out and about, but still it is very unsettling. 

Edited March 6, 2019 by JustEnough

[Syriana]

This links to a site that explains how herd immunity works - if vaccination levels fall below 90-95% for measles in an area, there is the potential for trouble.

https://www.ovg.ox.ac.uk/news/herd-immunity-how-does-it-work

[NotQuiteMotY]

They just announced a mumps outbreak in my area...

[HarryPotterFan]

Dear ducking lord, Rand Paul, why are you such an idiotic asshole?

https://www.thedailybeast.com/rand-paul-sure-vaccines-are-ok-but-we-shouldnt-trade-liberty-for-false-sense-of-security

Quote

“As we contemplate forcing parents to choose this or that vaccine, I think it’s important to remember that force is not consistent with the American story, nor is force consistent with the liberty our forefathers sought when they came to America,” said Paul, reading off a paper.

I’m pretty sure our forefathers would say, “You mean there is a way to prevent my babies from dying? Sign us up!! Life, liberty, and pursuit of vaccines!!”

Quote

“Now proponents of mandatory government vaccination argue that parents who refuse to vaccinate their children risk spreading these diseases to immunocompromised community,” he declared. “There doesn't seem to be enough evidence of this happening to be recorded as a statistic.”

HOW DID THIS PIECE OF SHIT GRADUATE FROM MEDICAL SCHOOL?

Quote

Paul, who is an eye doctor, has long argued that forced vaccination is wrong, even comparing the concept to martial law. 

No. Just no.

At least Senator Cassidy, who is also a physician, said that he’s wrong and “If you are such a believer in liberty that you do not wish to be vaccinated then there should be a consequence and this is you cannot infect other people.” 

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

Vancouver BC area now has 16 cases of measles and one is 50 miles out of the current cluster.  You now must prove vaccination of your children or they can’t attend school.  

I am now referring to anti vaxxer people as pro plague.

Edited March 7, 2019 by Don'tlikekoolaid
Add thought

[Terrie]

21 minutes ago, HarryPotterFan said:

force is not consistent with the American story

*Looks at our history of slavery, genocide against Native Americans, and immigrant exploitation* Uh-huh, suuuuuure.

[Imrlgoddess]

A little while ago I watched a live feed where the lady was asking how people felt about the idea of forced medical procedures.  Apparently she feels that if vaccines are mandated then right behind that various medical procedures will be next.  She started talking about vaccines and then went into "if you don't want to be ready to die when they say you have to die, they want you to treat cancer they way they it treated"...etc.  She said forcing vaccinations takes away part of our first amendment.  

I need some help processing these ideas...The first amendment part, I think I understand.  Like there are religions who don't allow autopsies or blood transfusions based on whatever dogma applies there. Not saying I agree or disagree with the choices just that many devoutly religious people want to adhere to those ideas.  

But the whole idea that mandating vaccination (barring medical reasons not to) leading to unauthorized, invasive procedures... why would they do it?  I'm really trying to grasp the logic in that argument.  

[Alisamer]

I have a bit of a hard time with the idea of "forced vaccinations" - but I think we may be at a point where it is necessary. Maybe it could be more like how you aren't allowed a license if you can't pass an eye exam, and your car can't get a license plate without proof of insurance. If vaccines were required 100% (with no exemptions except medical ones) for schools and daycares, that would take care of a large number of people. If they were required for all public facing jobs, to get a passport, to get a drivers license, marriage license, etc. that might help. You'd still have anti-vaxxers, of course, but that would take care of the majority. Most people want to be able to drive and/or travel.

I have a yellow card in my passport with proof of vaccinations that are required to enter certain countries, so I see no reason to allow people who are unvaccinated (who can be vaccinated) to be allowed a passport permitting them to leave and go infect other countries, or to pick up diseases in other countries and bring them back. 

Yesterday I read an article about an unvaccinated child who nearly died from tetanus, who spent a long time in the hospital and had nearly a million dollars in medical bills to save his life. And his parents STILL won't allow him to be vaccinated, after all that. It's madness.

[CTRLZero]

2 hours ago, Alisamer said:

I have a yellow card in my passport with proof of vaccinations

If we continue to have outbreaks of various diseases, we may all eventually have to carry proof of vaccinations with us.  On a more individual level, my husband's cousin wouldn't allow anyone to see her new baby without proof that everyone's TDAP vaccination was up to date.  We thought that was interesting at the time, but now see that it may have been prudent given that people may not routinely get vaccinated anymore. 

I read the article about the young boy suffering horribly from tetanus.  His parents' stance was mystifying after causing so much unnecessary pain, not to mention the medical bills, which will probably be passed along to taxpayers or in medical insurance premiums. 

PS:  I hope this makes sense.  Can someone please come up with a cure for the common cold?!? 

[Howl]

Yes, I just came across the information referenced by @Alisamer and @CTRLZero and came here to post.  Unvaccinated Child Developed Oregon’s First Pediatric Tetanus Case In 30 Years: CDC Report

When brought to the emergency room, the doctors immediately recognized the symptoms of tetanus, even though none of them had ever seen a live case.  "The child, who had never received any immunizations, was given an initial dose of the DTaP vaccine, which protects against diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis."  $800,000 in inpatient medical bills and

Quote

The boy received inpatient acute care for 57 days, 47 of which he spent in the intensive care unit, the case study said. It took 44 days after he developed the disease before he was able to sip clear liquids and 50 days before he was able to walk on his own...At the end of the ordeal, the report said, the boy’s parents refused further vaccinations before taking him home.

My sense is that this kid could easily have died, he suffered horribly, and his survival chances were increased by giving him the TDaP vaccine.  That the parents wouldn't allow any other vaccinations seems dangerously close to child abuse. 

I also read a heartbreaking obituary today (nobody I knew personally)  for a 13-year-old girl who died very suddenly of bacterial meningitis; there is a vaccine for this, but apparently, it's usually given around age 12 or when kids go to college or the military.  I was checking on google and didn't get a clear sense of the recommended schedule.  

I mentioned upthread or elsewhere that the Big State University where I worked mandated a meningitis vaccination before any new student could register. 

Edited March 9, 2019 by Howl

[AmazonGrace]

Even after he almost died, the parents wouldn't allow tetanus boosters. That's just child abuse in my book

[laPapessaGiovanna]

1 hour ago, AmazonGrace said:

Even after he almost died, the parents wouldn't allow tetanus boosters. That's just child abuse in my book

Especially considering that having had tetanus doesn't grant you immunity at all. And herd immunity doesn't exist for tetanus.

[Alisamer]

9 hours ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

Especially considering that having had tetanus doesn't grant you immunity at all. And herd immunity doesn't exist for tetanus.

AND they live on a farm, apparently. I did too, and not only did we all get our tetanus shots, but my parents and grandparents were always, constantly reminding us to be careful - watch out for rusty nails, don't step on that board it might have a nail in it, be careful that's sharp, etc.

[Black Aliss]

On 3/8/2019 at 10:19 AM, Imrlgoddess said:

A little while ago I watched a live feed where the lady was asking how people felt about the idea of forced medical procedures.  Apparently she feels that if vaccines are mandated then right behind that various medical procedures will be next.  She started talking about vaccines and then went into "if you don't want to be ready to die when they say you have to die, they want you to treat cancer they way they it treated"...etc.  She said forcing vaccinations takes away part of our first amendment.  

I need some help processing these ideas...The first amendment part, I think I understand.  Like there are religions who don't allow autopsies or blood transfusions based on whatever dogma applies there. Not saying I agree or disagree with the choices just that many devoutly religious people want to adhere to those ideas.  

But the whole idea that mandating vaccination (barring medical reasons not to) leading to unauthorized, invasive procedures... why would they do it?  I'm really trying to grasp the logic in that argument.  

There is no logic, so no wonder you can't grasp it. No one is going to force you to undergo a particular treatment if there are no potential victims. Your cancer is not contagious. Your refusal to have a pacemaker implanted will not cause anyone to die of heart failure. Refusal to vaccinate, on the other hand, can and does kill innocent people. Likewise, people with the ebola virus are quarantined, but we don't quarantine people with diabetes.

[IsmeWeatherwax]

When my eldest was coming up to having her MMR at a year old, the Wakefield report had just hit full on and I was terrified to have my baby injected with what could be ASD causing chemicals. I didn't know what ASD was then and the internet wasn't around much, this was back in 1997/98! BUT the thought of her catching measles mumps or rubella and worst side effect of those is death, had me taking her to be jabbed when the appointment came through the door. I have had all 4 of mine done with every available vax that is offered.

My eldest was again offered the brand new HPV vax, and again the news and interwebs were full of the horror stories, but she had hers and so did her sister. My good friend refused it for her daughter, and we have had..discussions about it. 

Maybe my interest (obsession!) with genealogy has an influence. Reading about the early deaths, and horrific preventable now  deaths they had, colours my view point.  

I should add that 2 of my 4 have ASD and they had it from the day they were born. They will continue to get every available vax that becomes available. Death is not preferable to ASD.

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

We now have a case of measles in BC Interior.   Lots of unvaccinated people in that area. Great, just great.

[adidas]

@Alisamer I too would support a move to stop  unvaxxed people from travelling in close confines with others. I don’t know how they would implement it though. Perhaps it could be linked to passports? Plane travel worries me, I hear of a lot of cases of people travelling (esp internationally) and spreading disease.

We have a few pro-vax procedures in place here, and of course the antivaxxers grumble about it - but too bad, so sad IMO.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/24/world/australia/vaccination-no-jab-play-pay.html

[Ozlsn]

On 3/9/2019 at 8:09 AM, CTRLZero said:

If we continue to have outbreaks of various diseases, we may all eventually have to carry proof of vaccinations with us.

Basically I think this is what is likely to happen. Up to recently you could assume fairly safely that travellers from high income countries were vaccinated for a range of VPD, so the only ones they specifically asked about were ones that they weren't getting routinely i.e. ones that they could catch and act as a transmission vector for. (And also get really sick and strain your local healthcare resources.) No point in allowing people to kick off a new outbreak in your local area when you could make them prove that they were unlikely to be able to do that before you allowed them entry. As more middle and (hopefully!) lower income countries start getting on top of measles I think you may see more proof requirements for visas and entry, particularly around MMR. What this means for people who can't be vaccinated I don't know.

@adidas plane travel is a concern tbh. In my previous job I went to seminars on infectious diseases and one that stuck out for me was a case where one traveller coming back from Vietnam infected 6 susceptible people on two flights, including two 60 year olds who had grown up in a very remote area and had never been exposed to measles - by the time they went to boarding school they were protected by herd immunity, and had been right up until they were unlucky enough to fly to Adelaide on the same flight as the infectious traveller. Doctors had never thought to ask them about vaccination - because of their age it was assumed they'd had it as children. You know when it really sucks to get measles? When you're an adult, particularly an older adult. Most of the seminar was about tracing/checking the vaccination status of everyone on those two flights, which was a massive job - but I think we all winced when those two cases were mentioned.

Edited March 9, 2019 by Ozlsn

[starfish]

I would dearly love to know more about the anti-vaxxers in Oregon who let their child get lockjack and refused the tetanus shot. Were they fundies? Did they have insurance?  Are the taxpayers on the line for their million dollar medical treatment because they indulged their anti-vaxx views? Maybe they have the religious sharing anti-insurance plan. Curse those HIPPA laws. 

 

[CTRLZero]

6 minutes ago, starfish said:

Maybe they have the religious sharing anti-insurance plan.

Good questions.  I was wondering if Samaritan/Scamaritan covers hospitalization for vaccine-preventable diseases? 

[Glasgowghirl]

The parents of the child who contacted tetanus need to have their children removed from their care. They obviously have learned nothing from their son being seriously ill in hospital. I got a tetanus shot at school when I was 15 and my arm ended up bruised and swollen, it took weeks for the swelling to go down but it didn't put me off getting other shots including tetanus since. A mild reaction to a vaccine is still better than catching tetanus.

[starfish]

3 hours ago, Glasgowghirl said:

The parents of the child who contacted tetanus need to have their children removed from their care. They obviously have learned nothing from their son being seriously ill in hospital. I got a tetanus shot at school when I was 15 and my arm ended up bruised and swollen, it took weeks for the swelling to go down but it didn't put me off getting other shots including tetanus since. A mild reaction to a vaccine is still better than catching tetanus.

I agree. They are content to let him suffer terribly in order to satisfy their scientifically-unsubstantiated crank views.  

[JustEnough]

4 hours ago, Glasgowghirl said:

I got a tetanus shot at school when I was 15 and my arm ended up bruised and swollen, it took weeks for the swelling to go down but it didn't put me off getting other shots including tetanus since. A mild reaction to a vaccine is still better than catching tetanus.

I think that a significant part of the anti vaccine position is that a reaction like you had is seen as OMG MY KID HAD A REACTION, and then any reaction is seen as justification of not vaccinating that child further and also then siblings  as well. Plus the parents spread the word to others about how dangerous vaccines are. I've had more than one person tell me that their kids couldn't medically get vaccines because the tetanus vaccine caused a swelling that took a week to go down, or the MMR/V vaccine caused a rash. Those are both reactions, but they are expected reactions to those vaccines in some people, and are evidence that the vaccine is working it's magic with the immune system. Same with a fever. It's very much within the realm of normal to have one after vaccines, and is only dangerous or evidence of an abnormal reaction if it gets very high and won't come down with a fever reducing medication such as ibuprofen.

Youngest kiddo reacts to every vaccine given. Because of their immunodeficiency they cannot get live vaccines but has had every dose of every other one, including extra doses at times when they do not hold the titre. Are the reactions fun for us or them? No. But we (with the absolute support of the doctors involved) understand that the consequences of getting the disease are so very much worse. 

Often the same kids who have reactions to vaccines are ones who would likely have complications with the diseases the vaccine prevents against according to YoungestEnough's respirologist. So stopping the vaccines aren't helping them, and they are definitely not helping the siblings who may never have even had a mild reaction to the vaccines if they were to get them.

It's easy to decide not to vaccinate because so many people do and are providing herd immunity. But that herd protection only works if the only people who don't get vaccinated are ones who have true (medically acknowledged) contraindications to getting them. 

When I read the article about the kid from Oregon I literally gasped when I read that they refused any further vaccines for their child (and any siblings he has). How can your child almost *die* and you stay content to let it happen again? I honestly cannot fathom. 

I've watched YoungestEnough on a ventilator and so sick we couldn't touch them without their oxygen saturation dropping. We had to sit and watch, and watching my child being so close to death is the hardest thing I have ever done. I would move heaven and earth to keep my kids alive and well. To be able to do so and then choose not to? I cannot fathom. 

[Glasgowghirl]

54 minutes ago, JustEnough said:

I think that a significant part of the anti vaccine position is that a reaction like you had is seen as OMG MY KID HAD A REACTION, and then any reaction is seen as justification of not vaccinating that child further and also then siblings  as well. Plus the parents spread the word to others about how dangerous vaccines are. I've had more than one person tell me that their kids couldn't medically get vaccines because the tetanus vaccine caused a swelling that took a week to go down, or the MMR/V vaccine caused a rash. Those are both reactions, but they are expected reactions to those vaccines in some people, and are evidence that the vaccine is working it's magic with the immune system. Same with a fever. It's very much within the realm of normal to have one after vaccines, and is only dangerous or evidence of an abnormal reaction if it gets very high and won't come down with a fever reducing medication such as ibuprofen.

Youngest kiddo reacts to every vaccine given. Because of their immunodeficiency they cannot get live vaccines but has had every dose of every other one, including extra doses at times when they do not hold the titre. Are the reactions fun for us or them? No. But we (with the absolute support of the doctors involved) understand that the consequences of getting the disease are so very much worse. 

The reaction caused mild discomfort at most and since I have asthma and always had a weaker immune system compared to my siblings, no way was I going to refuse future vaccines. I have had my flu shots and a couple of other tetanus shots since and have been fine. Every other vaccine I have had including the BCG a few weeks before the tetanus shot caused no reaction.