Tori and Bobby Smith Part 5: Had Kade and Pregnant Again

[FluffySnowball]

4 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

While I love Greek mythology, and I can see why you would love to use the names (because they are beautiful) I don’t think that Persephone has a nice background story to give that name to a child. The name is beautiful but I couldn’t split it from it’s story. ?‍♀️

Do you mean because she was abducted and became the goddess of the underworld? She’s also goddess of plants and spring though. All in all, I can hardly think of a character from Greek mythology who had a solely positive story. 

[just_ordinary]

4 hours ago, FluffySnowball said:

Do you mean because she was abducted and became the goddess of the underworld? She’s also goddess of plants and spring though. All in all, I can hardly think of a character from Greek mythology who had a solely positive story. 

True. But Greek and Roman mythology is full of very problematic narratives around men and women. I still love them but I would hesitate giving certain names to my child.

[scoutsadie]

I have learned it pronounced pur-SEHF-oh-nee... is that incorrect?

(And speaking of Greek names, my calico girl is Hypatia!)

[CarrotCake]

18 hours ago, lumpentheologie said:

Yeah, this is what ruins most Greek myth names for me.  A lot of them don't turn out well.  I really love the name Cassandra, but she had the most miserable life.  To me, naming a kid that would feel almost like cursing the poor thing.  

I saw a girl named Medusa recently. ?

[Smash!]

An acquaintance of mine is Medea and she hated her name. But there is this beautiful book by Christa Wolf that tells the story differently. In her book Medea isn't cruel but the opposite, a feminist who was broken by men. I don't know if it's available in English tough.

[Perrierwithlemon]

9 hours ago, CarrotCake said:

I saw a girl named Medusa recently. ?

That makes me think of the villain in Disney's The Rescuers (1977). That and the fact that she is considered monstrous in Greek mythology makes it a very odd choice...

[OyToTheVey]

On 11/1/2019 at 9:19 PM, JermajestyDuggar said:

I really like Ronan Farrow. But I will say that a few of the Farrow children have changed their names over the years. It’s just a weird fact I remember about Mia Farrow’s kids. 

 

A lot of them have also gone into hiding. 

[elisa]

I am Greek, in case you need anything abouth pronunciations!

[TShirtsLongSkirts]

The name Persephone reminds me of the name Penelope, who has a wonderful and quite wholesome story (for a Greek myth obv). Famed for her cleverness, kindness and loyalty. No one has trouble with the -e at the end of Penelope.

I love both of the names. Persephone is unusual sure, but it's also beautiful and a very ancient name. 

[lumpentheologie]

17 hours ago, TShirtsLongSkirts said:

The name Persephone reminds me of the name Penelope, who has a wonderful and quite wholesome story (for a Greek myth obv). Famed for her cleverness, kindness and loyalty.

It's true that Penelope is a model of ancient Greek female virtue in the Odyssey, but I can't get behind calling it a wholesome story.  She is clever and that helps her to remain chaste while Odysseus is gone, but she knows the stakes for this: female monogamy is literally a matter of life and death. When Odysseus returns, he and his son slowly and gruesomely murder all his slave girls, for having been raped by Penelope's suitors while they were occupying his house.  There's also absolutely no question of Odysseus being sexually loyal to Penelope--not only does he get it on with almost every witch/goddess/whatever he meets along his travels, but his slave girls are there for his sexual use (which is why them getting raped merited death), and he certainly also had sexual slave captives during the 10 years he was at Troy. 

I know you qualified this with "for a Greek myth," but I don't think it's even close to wholesome. Ancient Greece is one of the most extremely patriarchal societies known to history, and Penelope is a model of staying loyal to your male owner no matter what -- exactly what our fundie maidens are being taught.  Her cleverness is valued only in that it allows her to continue to do this in very trying circumstances. 

[Melissa1977]

On 11/6/2019 at 10:30 AM, CarrotCake said:

I saw a girl named Medusa recently. ?

Medusa is the Spanish word for jellyfish. Not a very appealing name!

[TShirtsLongSkirts]

3 hours ago, lumpentheologie said:

It's true that Penelope is a model of ancient Greek female virtue in the Odyssey, but I can't get behind calling it a wholesome story.  She is clever and that helps her to remain chaste while Odysseus is gone, but she knows the stakes for this: female monogamy is literally a matter of life and death. When Odysseus returns, he and his son slowly and gruesomely murder all his slave girls, for having been raped by Penelope's suitors while they were occupying his house.  There's also absolutely no question of Odysseus being sexually loyal to Penelope--not only does he get it on with almost every witch/goddess/whatever he meets along his travels, but his slave girls are there for his sexual use (which is why them getting raped merited death), and he certainly also had sexual slave captives during the 10 years he was at Troy. 

I know you qualified this with "for a Greek myth," but I don't think it's even close to wholesome. Ancient Greece is one of the most extremely patriarchal societies known to history, and Penelope is a model of staying loyal to your male owner no matter what -- exactly what our fundie maidens are being taught.  Her cleverness is valued only in that it allows her to continue to do this in very trying circumstances. 

I completely agree that the whole story isn't wholesome at all, and that Odysseus is, indeed, a dickbag! However, I do think that Penelope gets a "happy" ending compared to many other clever women in Greek myth (Medea, Arachne) - she doesn't get abducted, raped, or murdered, and she uses her initiative to remain strong to her belief that Odysseus is alive, despite overwhelming odds.

I will have to disagree with you on your point about female monogamy - although you're undoubtedly right about the double standards, Odysseus was assumed dead. Remarriage on windowing was very common in Ancient Greece. It was expected and assumed that Penelope would remarry, and Odysseus worries that she has. It would have been the safer option for her to take a new husband. I don't believe she remains loyal because she has to, but rather the opposite - she remains loyal even though it would be much easier not to. She'd rather be alone than without her true love, and is capable of supporting herself without a male figure (as in Carol Ann Duffy's poem Penelope, one of my favourites). 

In general though, I am of the opinion that we can't apply modern cultural norms to the ancient world. There's a good argument for Penelope being an exceptionally strong female character of the time, without any comeuppance from the gods. Her clever way of delaying the suitors means Penelope's almost the hero of her own story against overwhelming odds - there's a good write up here. But yes, by modern standards, the whole thing isn't great - but in the wheelhouse of Greek mythology, it's pretty damn progressive. And the name is still very pretty.

I really liked the portrayal of Penelope in the book Circe - Odysseus is a dickbag there, too!

[lumpentheologie]

33 minutes ago, TShirtsLongSkirts said:

I completely agree that the whole story isn't wholesome at all, and that Odysseus is, indeed, a dickbag! However, I do think that Penelope gets a "happy" ending compared to many other clever women in Greek myth (Medea, Arachne) - she doesn't get abducted, raped, or murdered, and she uses her initiative to remain strong to her belief that Odysseus is alive, despite overwhelming odds.

 

39 minutes ago, TShirtsLongSkirts said:

In general though, I am of the opinion that we can't apply modern cultural norms to the ancient world. There's a good argument for Penelope being an exceptionally strong female character of the time, without any comeuppance from the gods. Her clever way of delaying the suitors means Penelope's almost the hero of her own story against overwhelming odds - there's a good write up here.

To the bolded: such a low bar! It would hilariously low if those weren't the most common things happening to women in Greek myth. 

But I'm not sure I agree with you that we can't apply modern cultural norms to the ancient world. I suppose it depends on what you're trying to do by applying those norms. I'm pretty comfortable saying that rape was wrong even 3000 years ago. And I think modern norms should definitely inform how we continue to use and interpret ancient texts. When I was teaching Aristotle to undergrads it would have been wrong to not discuss (and condemn) his justifications for slavery, especially since they were later used by Americans as moralistic support for modern slave ownership. But I don't think such an application of current cultural norms precludes still valuing these texts or trying to understand the worlds they reproduce for us.  One of the main reasons I'm fascinated by Ancient Greece is because its values were so different from our own (especially in the pre-Classical periods) even though it's billed as the origin of our civilization. 

But another problem with not applying modern norms to the ancient world is that we don't have anything approaching a representative sample of voices from ancient cultures that we could use to establish their own norms. The Iliad and the Odyssey show us social norms from the viewpoint of powerful men. I would be surprised if the women and peasants of the time thought about the heroes' near-constant raping and pillaging in the same way. (A Greek professor of mine in college once said that Homeric portrayals of the heroes mowing down scores opponents in battle probably weren't that far removed from reality, since, unlike the peasants, the nobility had access to actual weapons, military training, and enough food.) 

1 hour ago, TShirtsLongSkirts said:

I will have to disagree with you on your point about female monogamy - although you're undoubtedly right about the double standards, Odysseus was assumed dead. Remarriage on windowing was very common in Ancient Greece. It was expected and assumed that Penelope would remarry, and Odysseus worries that she has. It would have been the safer option for her to take a new husband. I don't believe she remains loyal because she has to, but rather the opposite - she remains loyal even though it would be much easier not to. She'd rather be alone than without her true love, and is capable of supporting herself without a male figure (as in Carol Ann Duffy's poem Penelope, one of my favourites). 

I totally agree that remarriage was common and I think if this were real life and not a myth Penelope would have remarried.  And I think there's absolutely a place for feminist readings of Penelope, somewhat against the grain. But I read her character, as portrayed in the Odyssey, as existing in order to be a model of female virtue, an anti-Helen. That's certainly somewhat one-sided, but it's there, and because I dislike that model of female virtue, I personally wouldn't name a daughter after her. YMMV.  

(As a total aside, I really don't know what to make of Odysseus' family, almost uniquely in Homer, having a happy ending tied to their virtue. The rest of Greek myth seems almost designed to show how there's no relationship between virtue and happiness. Even Helen, the female anti-hero, gets a happy-ish ending, living in peace with Menelaus as Queen of Sparta and doling out opium at their house parties. I'd love to hear your thoughts.) 

1 hour ago, TShirtsLongSkirts said:

I really liked the portrayal of Penelope in the book Circe - Odysseus is a dickbag there, too!

This has been on my reading list for a while now and this has moved it up to the top. Thanks! I'll check out the Duffy poem too. 

 

[FluffySnowball]

8 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

Medusa is the Spanish word for jellyfish. Not a very appealing name!

Are you sure it’s not appealing? 

ETA: I don’t know who else here loves Brooklyn 99, but Charles is the guy with interest in at times weird culinary concepts. 

Edited December 16, 2019 by FluffySnowball

[dripcurl]

On 10/29/2019 at 10:18 AM, CaptainFunderpants said:

It's been speculated that not even Jessa likes the name Spurgeon. She humored Ben, but then for the subsequent ones she put her foot down. She tried to make calling him Elliot a thing, but it didn't stick, which is unfortunate because I feel like Spurgeon looks like an Eli.

I could get behind this; I’ve known many an entitled Calvin bro, and naming a kid, espcially their first born son (P*triatchy) after a famous Calvin bro is shit they dig no matter how bad the name might be. Calvinist/Reformed theology  is such a wildly meta belief system, because fundamentalist beliefs of any kind tend to fuel superiority among its adherents, but being Reformed is literally believing that they are superior in the first place. Ben doesn’t give a fuck about being That Asshole that preaches that some people are born to go to hell to be tortured forever having no chance of accepting Christ, so why wouldn’t he be That Asshole that names his kid an ugly ass name? Jessa, who grew up being called “the pretty one” by her dad (IIRC, I saw this when it aired way back in the day), I can see why she more brave and putting her foot down when it comes to appearances, as you said. They are both so smug, it will be interesting to see how their lives play out. It will be a constant power struggle, as much there can be in a Patriarchal relationship.

 

I know I have not participated on any snark start here on FJ, but when I was a teenager I did watch the show sometimes on TLC and I followed Jessa and Ben’s story pretty closely. Mainly because their courtship was happening around the same time I got into ky first relationship, And while it was certainly not a courtship, my ex was pretty fundie in some ways, he unfortunately had a lot of strange rules for us and I was still living with my parents. However I had renounced SAHDhood by then and was enjoying my freedom in having control of my relationship, unlike them. I especially liked when Jimmy Fallon commented on the proposal in the utility closet in which they weren’t even allowed to hug, but Jessa’s first instinct when she said yes was to hug fucking Michelle. 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

14 hours ago, dripcurl said:

I especially liked when Jimmy Fallon commented on the proposal in the utility closet 

Sorry to be pedantic, but that was when he asked if she wanted to court, and it was in Jim Bob’s office, not a utility closet. Ben proposed at Thorncrown Chapel outside Hot Springs, a very beautiful place. I think Ben had asked Jim Bob for permission and he’d said yes, and Jessa was like, “what’s up?,” so he went ahead and asked her. 

[rebeccawriter01]

On 2/29/2020 at 12:17 PM, QuiverFullofBooks said:

Sorry to be pedantic, but that was when he asked if she wanted to court, and it was in Jim Bob’s office, not a utility closet. Ben proposed at Thorncrown Chapel outside Hot Springs, a very beautiful place. I think Ben had asked Jim Bob for permission and he’d said yes, and Jessa was like, “what’s up?,” so he went ahead and asked her. 

I think it is the loads of boxes, hooks, etc., as well as the size of the room that made most people think utility closet. There was also the handmade sign saying mail room. 

Now all these couples do courtship proposals and marriage proposals. Both of them are dramatic, expensive, and sometimes include travel, photoshoots, and random weird parents watching every action with binoculars. It's all overkill really. 

[justmy2cents]

9 hours ago, rebeccawriter01 said:

Now all these couples do courtship proposals and marriage proposals. Both of them are dramatic, expensive, and sometimes include travel, photoshoots, and random weird parents watching every action with binoculars. It's all overkill really. 

The Bates family does destination courtship proposals but the Duggars seem to do pretty simple ones. Jessa in the prayer closet, Jill while visiting Derick in Nepal, Jinger out on the porch at the TTH and Joy while hiking. I don’t even remember the brother’s proposals, just the engagement ones. Who could forget Joe getting down on one knee at Joy’s wedding.

[CarrotCake]

3 hours ago, justmy2cents said:

The Bates family does destination courtship proposals but the Duggars seem to do pretty simple ones. Jessa in the prayer closet, Jill while visiting Derick in Nepal, Jinger out on the porch at the TTH and Joy while hiking. I don’t even remember the brother’s proposals, just the engagement ones. Who could forget Joe getting down on one knee at Joy’s wedding.

Joe 'proposed' courtship on his birthground and Josiah at a dinner that Lauren had with his sisters I think. All quite low-key compared to the Bates. And much more appropriate.

 

[rebeccawriter01]

4 hours ago, justmy2cents said:

The Bates family does destination courtship proposals but the Duggars seem to do pretty simple ones. Jessa in the prayer closet, Jill while visiting Derick in Nepal, Jinger out on the porch at the TTH and Joy while hiking. I don’t even remember the brother’s proposals, just the engagement ones. Who could forget Joe getting down on one knee at Joy’s wedding.

The Duggars do it a little more low key, but it is still cringe worthy. 

[Angelface]

I find that I forget that Tori exists for much of the time! She was so annoying prior to engagement and then after marriage not much has been seen of her or Bobby. I was hopeful that she had escaped Batesville but alas, she has dragged Bobby there. I am amazed that they moved back. She looks more and more like Kelly the more children she has. The same can be said of Erin who would look soooo much like her mother if she (Erin) had dark hair. It would be wonderful if someone, anyone, bucked the trend and married a non- fundie, got a job, waited at least two years before having any children and decided that three or four were enough. Wouldn’t that be exciting? But I don’t have high hopes of it actually happening, alas. 

[doubleT]

I feel like Tori has been pregnant with #2 for well over a year.  ?   

 

[HideousGreenShirt]

Tori is my bet, along with Erin, to have the most kids. I think both will keep going until they aren't able to. And definitely she looks a lot like Kelly, I think Alyssa favours Kelly too. 

What is Bobby doing for work these days, helping Kelton with plumbing or cmChad with construction? 

Bori posted an update on Instagram that baby Kondor will be here in the next 2-3 weeks. 

Spoiler

 

[TuringMachine]

Man Bori is so boring we haven't had a new thread for them since before Kade was born.

[scoutsadie]

1 hour ago, HideousGreenShirt said:

Bori posted an update on Instagram that baby Kondor will be here in the next 2-3 weeks. 

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