Joy & Austin 21: Still Talking About Baby Gideon

[Ivycoveredtower]

6 minutes ago, Eternalbluepearl said:

I know everyone was gathered at the big house to await news of the baby, but it made me picture that's all they do all day. Healthy adults Just sitting around the giant house with babies spitting up and kids running wild, making coffee one mug at a time. 

it's still debated if that was a reshoot for TLC since in their congrats video Ben said he had came in from work and Jessa had him guess. yet he is clearly there so either TLC played with the Time line or Ben lied. 

Ben works for JIm Bob I think probably doing what the other boys do. Joe supposedly works at the car lot and is in charge of new purchases. all the boys from I think Jason up work for Jim bob in some way doing yard work and repairs on his proprieties or working at the car lot or real estate business. 

[viii]

My guess is re-shoot because otherwise it seems like a really dumb thing to lie about.

[metheglyn]

35 minutes ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

the Ellie Blog seems to stick pretty closely to the truth so I wouldn't doubt it. I am actually a bit surprised they didn't just say midwife and actually said Jill told her. that makes the Duggar's look bad and Ellie and her mom are super Duggar/bates fans. 

Honestly, I'm not sure Ellie even realized/believed that it makes them look bad to non-fans. The clip said "midwife" and Ellie's the only one who's officially claimed it's Jill, to my knowledge. So either Ellie's confused, or she's oblivious to the implications of Jill AGAIN being proven to be unable to tell when something is legitimately wrong with a birth.

And if TLC was hiding it and Ellie (with potential actual insider knowledge, given that's she's been behind the scenes at various tapings) just said it was Jill who was responsible...yeah that's not great for Ellie OR the Duggars.

[Million Children For Jesus]

Is it possible that Jessa told Ben that it was a boy, and that only a handful of people were privy to that information before the announcement, but Ben played along with being surprised so as not to ruin it for the others? 

[neurogirl]

I'm listening to the British History Podcast right now and it is super interesting! We're spending a lot of time in the "Dark Ages," or between Rome pulling out of Britain and the Norman invasion, and the host Jamie really makes it clear that the Victorians gave us the impression of the Dark Ages because they identified as the Roman and Norman conquerors, but the centuries of history in-between those groups obviously had some pretty cool stuff going on. For example, in the late 600s King Egbert of Kent pulled off a "princes in the tower" long before Richard III but no one ever mentions him. Anyway, while I totally understand the Tudor love, just wanted to throw out history I had never heard of and I think is rarely talked about. 

But I brought this up in the first place because Jamie reported that based on evidence from graves and other sources, 1/4 of all Anglo-Saxon women died during or immediately after childbirth. ONE-FOURTH. of all women. And while the nutrient intake and hygiene standards weren't modern, these were generally still hard-working, muscular farm women who were tough as nails. So to echo one beautifully-put FJer, yes giving birth is "natural," but so was dying in childbirth. And while I understand the desire for home-births, don't be stupid Duggars. Be so grateful to modern medicine and your God for blessing you with resources of his creation to take advantage of. To me, that is much more God-honoring than just praying about it. But I'm a liberal pants-wearing college-educated woman so what do I know?

[metheglyn]

2 minutes ago, neurogirl said:

But I brought this up in the first place because Jamie reported that based on evidence from graves and other sources, 1/4 of all Anglo-Saxon women died during or immediately after childbirth. ONE-FOURTH. of all women. And while the nutrient intake and hygiene standards weren't modern, these were generally still hard-working, muscular farm women who were tough as nails. So to echo one beautifully-put FJer, yes giving birth is "natural," but so was dying in childbirth. And while I understand the desire for home-births, don't be stupid Duggars. Be so grateful to modern medicine and your God for blessing you with resources of his creation to take advantage of. To me, that is much more God-honoring than just praying about it. But I'm a liberal pants-wearing college-educated woman so what do I know?

Based on the current stats of Duggar daughter first births, we're 3/3 on traumatic first births, and 2/3 on emergency c-section 1st births plus 1/3 on postpartum hemorrhage, correct? So it's likely that without medical intervention none of the Duggar daughters who have given birth thus far would still be alive, let alone be in a position to have more potentially dangerous births.

This is NOT SENSIBLE Duggars! You need better medical care during pregnancy and childbirth, not to be taking stupid risks!

At this rate, they're WORSE off than that historical average, and that's ridiculous.

[Mlissmartin]

Ok it's been bugging me, why is this thread called baby Gideon is "still" here...why wouldn't he be, it pinches a nerve with me

[TatiFish9]

It will be interesting to see what size Amy's babies are if she has children.

I have a feeling this could be a Duggar female trait passed down through Jim Bob's line.  Michelle had smaller babies and on average less complicated births, but she is not a Duggar by blood.

I had a doctor once tell me that genetics is a complicated field which the public tends not to have a strong grasp on. It's more than "my mom had this" or "my great grand dad looks this way. " 

I do believe diet and activity plays a role in everything we do (this can't be discounted) but it is not the sole determining factor on biological outcomes.  

 

Also, loved the Henry VIII talk. Learned some new details I've not seen mentioned before.

[Ivycoveredtower]

4 minutes ago, Mlissmartin said:

Ok it's been bugging me, why is this thread called baby Gideon is "still" here...why wouldn't he be, it pinches a nerve with me

it's just a joke because ha ha he hasn't figured out what family he is in an ran away plus Joy and Austin are boring. 

[Nargus]

5 minutes ago, Mlissmartin said:

Ok it's been bugging me, why is this thread called baby Gideon is "still" here...why wouldn't he be, it pinches a nerve with me

I always took it as a 'this is literally the only interesting thing about them, so it's still the title'

[AprilQuilt]

If LIly and Ellie's blog is correct in saying that JILL was the only midwife, then I am so angry with her. Her ignorance made her take dangerous risks with her own pregnancies/births, and yet she hasn't learnt a single thing from it -  she's gone on to put her little buddy Joy at risk too.

Judging by the pattern in her own labours and now Joy's, Jill hasn't accepted her own lack of competence as a midwife. She's always been quite officious about it, you can tell she gets off on having specialist knowledge (and why shouldn't she? These girls should have been free to pursue careers they might have taken real pride in), but it seems she's too pig-headed to acknowledge the limits to her expertise. I'd hazard that if Joy had been getting better prenatal care, Gideon's breech position might have been detected before labour; he might have been turned; Joy might have managed the 'natural' birth pool/vaginal delivery she wanted. That or there'd have been a scheduled caesarian, sparing mother and baby 20 hours of labour.

When are the Duggars going to stop supporting the fantasy that Jill has the training and expertise to take responsibility for women in labour? If she really honestly wants to do this, she needs to go back to school. Her decisions have impacted on Gideon's birth, and likely compromised the number of children Joy will be able to have in the future. That's not the worst thing in the world, but it's a huge thing to have taken that choice away from J&A solely because of her own incompetence.

It's true that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

[TatiFish9]

Is Jill a midwife? She has a CPM and is registered as one. Does that make her a practicing midwife or something else? I am starting to get confused about her status. When I say she is one, some argue she isn't. Some say she never was one. I dunno.

[Ivycoveredtower]

11 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

Is Jill a midwife? She has a CPM and is registered as one. Does that make her a practicing midwife or something else? I am starting to get confused about her status. When I say she is one, some argue she isn't. Some say she never was one. I dunno.

I guess Derick went on a bit of a twitter rant about this last month so the inquistr wrote an article explaining what Jill is or may be 

https://www.inquisitr.com/4790803/jill-duggar-dillards-husband-derick-defends-her-midwife-qualifications-i-drove-her-to-take-the-test/

[Million Children For Jesus]

I’m not buying the breech story. I think she simply failed to progress. IIRC, I read on FJ that it is common for abuse survivors to have difficulty laboring. Of course, many women fail to progress and it has nothing to do with abuse, so I am in no way implying that everyone who ever needed a c-section is an abuse survivor. I’m simply saying that it is possible that Joy wasn’t comfortable laboring and that this breech story was just something they said because they felt like it was a socially acceptable reason for a c-section. 

[Ivycoveredtower]

2 minutes ago, Million Children For Jesus said:

I’m not buying the breech story. I think she simply failed to progress. IIRC, I read on FJ that it is common for abuse survivors to have difficulty laboring. Of course, many women fail to progress and it has nothing to do with abuse, so I am in no way implying that everyone who ever needed a c-section is an abuse survivor. I’m simply saying that it is possible that Joy wasn’t comfortable laboring and that this breech story was just something they said because they felt like it was a socially acceptable reason for a c-section. 

I personally don't doubt the breech story but your theory is an interesting one and something to think about. it also got her out of being filmed for the show like Jessa was. 

[feministxtian]

40 minutes ago, AprilQuilt said:

When are the Duggars going to stop supporting the fantasy that Jill has the training and expertise to take responsibility for women in labour?

I'm afraid it's going to take a stillbirth or neonatal death or a maternal death for Jilly-Muffin to finally figure out she has NO FUCKING CLUE. 

[marmalade]

13 minutes ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

I guess Derick went on a bit of a twitter rank about this last month so the inquistr wrote an article explaining what Jill is or may be 

https://www.inquisitr.com/4790803/jill-duggar-dillards-husband-derick-defends-her-midwife-qualifications-i-drove-her-to-take-the-test/

AR requires lay midwives to take a state test on top of the CPM one. Jill has never taken this test and is NOT licensed to practice in AR. 

[AprilQuilt]

1 minute ago, feministxtian said:

I'm afraid it's going to take a stillbirth or neonatal death or a maternal death for Jilly-Muffin to finally figure out she has NO FUCKING CLUE. 

Not gonna lie, this was hovering in the back of my mind too. I truly hope it never comes to that, but even if it did, she'd find other things to blame it on. 'The baby flipped during labour' etc. They'll rationalise it away to 'walking a difficult path' just as they have with their other scandals, and none of them will ever ever ever examine their own actions.

[TatiFish9]

@Ivycoveredtower

On the Dillard website she says she went to some school in Texas, did clinicals and is registered with the Board of Midwifery as a CPM. To me that makes her a midwife in her state where CPMs are allowed to practice.

I guess my frustration and concern with Jill is she could be doing so much more with it! As soon as she got married she stopped pursuing the career except with her family (and probably friends). Within the medical field one must stay current with research and continuing in order to practice accurately. 

I believe a woman has a right to choose. If she wants to drop her career to parent, that is her business. However, I am shocked to learn she went all the way to becoming a CPM without wanting to fully pursue the career.

However, she does say in her write up that she was content with assisting only but Vanessa (or Veronica?) pushed her to go further. Maybe her goal was to be active until she became a wife but felt pressured to go further in order to continue to study as an apprentice.

[Ivycoveredtower]

1 minute ago, TatiFish9 said:

@Ivycoveredtower

On the Dillard website she says she went to some school in Texas, did clinicals and is registered with the Board of Midwifery as a CPM. To me that makes her a midwife in her state where CPMs are allowed to practice.

I guess my frustration and concern with Jill is she could be doing so much more with it! As soon as she got married she stopped pursuing the career except with her family (and probably friends). Within the medical field one must stay current with research and continuing in order to practice accurately. 

I believe a woman has a right to choose. If she wants to drop her career to parent, that is her business. However, I am shocked to learn she went all the way to becoming a CPM without wanting to fully pursue the career.

However, she does say in her write up that she was content with assisting only but Vanessa (or Veronica?) pushed her to go further. Maybe her goal was to be active until she became a wife but felt pressured to go further in order to continue to study as an apprentice.

according to the person above me you have to take both the test and Jill hasn't plus even if she did I would guess she hasn't renewed it so I'm going with no she isn't a midwife. 

[singsingsing]

9 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

I'm afraid it's going to take a stillbirth or neonatal death or a maternal death for Jilly-Muffin to finally figure out she has NO FUCKING CLUE. 

She probably still won’t figure it out then. She’ll just rationalize that it was ‘God’s will’. Ugh.

[TuringMachine]

I was under the impression that Jill would need to redo her apprenticeship since the midwife she did it under lost her license.

[Snarkasarus Rex]

58 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

Is Jill a midwife? She has a CPM and is registered as one. Does that make her a practicing midwife or something else? I am starting to get confused about her status. When I say she is one, some argue she isn't. Some say she never was one. I dunno.

I get pissed when I read articles about what Jill is/isn't because the authors tend to have no clue about what they are talking about.

Jill is a Certified Professional Midwife.  This is an industry certification, which is much different than a license.  The level of education, experience and skill required to become a CPM is shockingly low.  That's why you see the 'fake midwife' phrase thrown around when CPMs are discussed.  CPMs are completely different than Certified Nurse Midwives, who go through rigorous education and are allowed to work in a hospital setting.  

Most states realize the CPM cert on its own is worthless so they set higher qualifications and standards, and establish greater accountability, by licensing their lay midwives.  Not surprisingly, Jill is not licensed although she potentially could be licensed in AR.

So yes, Jill is technically a midwife because she is a CPM.  But she's an unlicensed lay midwife, and obviously a poorly trained one.

[SassyPants]

6 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

@Ivycoveredtower

On the Dillard website she says she went to some school in Texas, did clinicals and is registered with the Board of Midwifery as a CPM. To me that makes her a midwife in her state where CPMs are allowed to practice.

I guess my frustration and concern with Jill is she could be doing so much more with it! As soon as she got married she stopped pursuing the career except with her family (and probably friends). Within the medical field one must stay current with research and continuing in order to practice accurately. 

I believe a woman has a right to choose. If she wants to drop her career to parent, that is her business. However, I am shocked to learn she went all the way to becoming a CPM without wanting to fully pursue the career.

However, she does say in her write up that she was content with assisting only but Vanessa (or Veronica?) pushed her to go further. Maybe her goal was to be active until she became a wife but felt pressured to go further in order to continue to study as an apprentice.

Was Joy laboring in TX? And even if this story is true (first time I've heard it), does AR recognize that certification and allow Jill to legally practice in AR? If so, what's the process? Did Jill complete that process? When?

I am a licensed RN in CA. When we moved to IL for the hub's job, I had to jump through a boatload of hoops in order to legally practice in IL- not testing, but paperwork, interviews, additional finger printing in IL, licensing.

3 minutes ago, Snarkasarus Rex said:

I get pissed when I read articles about what Jill is/isn't because the authors tend to have no clue about what they are talking about.

Jill is a Certified Professional Midwife.  This is an industry certification, which is much different than a license.  The level of education, experience and skill required to become a CPM is shockingly low.  That's why you see the 'fake midwife' phrase thrown around when CPMs are discussed.  CPMs are completely different than Certified Nurse Midwives, who go through rigorous education and are allowed to work in a hospital setting.  

Arkansas is one of the few states that allow CPMs to practice without a license.  Most states realize the CPM cert on its own is worthless so they set higher qualifications and standards, and establish greater accountability, by licensing their lay midwives.  Not surprisingly, Jill is not licensed although she potentially could be licensed in AR.

So yes, Jill is technically a midwife because she is a CPM.  But she's an unlicensed lay midwife, and obviously a poorly trained one.

I wish there was no C in that title. It should be called unlicensed lay midwife- using the C confuses that role with that of Certified Nurse Midwives.

[Satan'sFortress]

Full disclosure:  I had CNMs with both births--first in a hospital, second in a birth center. I had a great experience with them---they were all registered nurses, as well.  For me, I was just more comfortable with them than with doctors.  If I'd had a third, I would have considered a home birth with them in attendance.  I labored some at home and felt so comfortable that I was annoyed at having to leave.  Every labor is different, and I totally understand why many, if not most women, think all of that is crazy.

HOWEVER:

• I was monitored medically the whole time----had all the recommended tests and US, etc.
• If there were any complicating factors, the policy was that I was to be turned over to an MD.  This did happen with the first baby & so both a doctor and the CNM were part of his birth.

So, while I do at least understand why the Duggars, or any woman might choose to use MW or give birth at home, having just Jill is insanity.  Even if she were an experienced, certified nurse midwife---Hell, even if she were  an OB, she had no business trying to deliver the baby of a woman who is for all intents and purposes, her own daughter!